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In reply to the discussion: Man punches nurse for removing wife's burqa during c-section [View all]ellisonz
(27,776 posts)79. Why it took so long for someone to point out this key point is beyond me...
"He said seeing his wife's veil lifted in front of a male health worker was like seeing her "bare-chested" in front of another man."
It appears to me the issue was the presence of a "male health worker," my guess is that there was a cultural communication breakdown. I doubt he would have had any issue if the doctor and nursing staff was all female. The amount of ignorance of certain Islamic cultures in this thread astounds me - how do you think women gave birth in Afghanistan under the Taliban or before modern medicine?
Let's explore this issue a bit more:
About 18,000 Afghan women die during childbirth every year, says the Afghan Health Ministry. According to a recent report by the NGO Save the Children, Afghanistan ranked as the worst place to give birth, followed by Niger and Chad. In these countries, 60% of all births are not attended to by skilled health professionals. On average, about 1 in 23 mothers are expected to die from pregnancy-related causes. Children also die young and suffer from malnutrition, and education for girls is poor.
Often the challenge is just getting women to hospitals. Rural Afghans, even in relatively progressive provinces like Bamiyan in central Afghanistan, are suspicious or dismissive of doctors. In the town of Bamiyan, the main hospital has a new maternity ward. But head midwife Sediqa Hosseini says many of the 25 beds in the ward are often empty. On a recent summer afternoon, Hosseini, a tiny, serious woman in a baby blue headscarf, greets the 12 women who have checked in. One is Fatima, a 25-year-old farmer's wife. "When Fatima arrived, her baby was coming out shoulder first," Hosseini says. "She had to have a C-section. Without help, both of them would have died."
Fatima says her husband took her to the hospital when her labor became so painful that she was doubled over. Hosseini says few husbands would have done the same. Many rural men prefer to pray with a mullah to cure illnesses, she says. "They believe this is more reliable than medicine." As she breast-feeds her newborn daughter, Fatima says she wouldn't have gone if it had not been for a community-health worker who told her hospitals are safe and free.
Read more: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2094031,00.html#ixzz1jQVebsfP
Often the challenge is just getting women to hospitals. Rural Afghans, even in relatively progressive provinces like Bamiyan in central Afghanistan, are suspicious or dismissive of doctors. In the town of Bamiyan, the main hospital has a new maternity ward. But head midwife Sediqa Hosseini says many of the 25 beds in the ward are often empty. On a recent summer afternoon, Hosseini, a tiny, serious woman in a baby blue headscarf, greets the 12 women who have checked in. One is Fatima, a 25-year-old farmer's wife. "When Fatima arrived, her baby was coming out shoulder first," Hosseini says. "She had to have a C-section. Without help, both of them would have died."
Fatima says her husband took her to the hospital when her labor became so painful that she was doubled over. Hosseini says few husbands would have done the same. Many rural men prefer to pray with a mullah to cure illnesses, she says. "They believe this is more reliable than medicine." As she breast-feeds her newborn daughter, Fatima says she wouldn't have gone if it had not been for a community-health worker who told her hospitals are safe and free.
Read more: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2094031,00.html#ixzz1jQVebsfP
Afghanistan has an atrocious infant mortality rate because it does not have enough trained female mid-wives and social workers who are capable of doing this type of work. I refuse to believe that the only acceptable approach on our part is to impose a Westernized hospital model where it is not wanted. What is needed is a team approach. Trained local/culturally sensitive teams of social workers, mid-wives, nurses, doctors, and religious officials. I refuse to believe that under proper conditions that Islamic men and women with belief with this type of belief system can not be persuaded to do the smart thing in regards to child birth, and in fact, treatment of women and children in general. I think we do a great disservice to ourselves when we persist with the notion that somehow ipso facto other people are fundamentally different than us in their basic humanity. As Nobel Peace Prize winner described, "How can you defy fear? Fear is a human instinct, just like hunger. Whether you like it or not, you become hungry. Similarly with fear. But I have learned to train myself to live with this fear." We must all train ourselves, simply throwing our hands up in the air and saying what a fool, or how could anything like this ever happen, we must with reasoned mind, approach the problem and solve it together, as one, a common race, human kind.
The condition of women in Islamic societies as a whole is also far from desirable. However, we should acknowledge that there are differences. In certain countries, the conditions are much better and in others much worse.
Women are the victims of this patriarchal culture, but they are also its carriers. Let us keep in mind that every oppressive man was raised in the confines of his mother's home.
Shirin Ebadi
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Well then, he can view the next ten years of his wife and child's life.... through bars.
hlthe2b
Jan 2012
#4
10 years??!! France's burqa laws are so mild, this guy may get a fine only.
riderinthestorm
Jan 2012
#11
You mean, not for FORCING HIS WIFE TO WEAR A BURQA! That only brings a fine.
riderinthestorm
Jan 2012
#29
The burqa is a cultural artifact meant to oppress and diminish women. It's not religious.
riderinthestorm
Jan 2012
#68
The assumption being that all men are potential rapists with no self control whatsoever.
aquart
Jan 2012
#106
You can try to rationalize it all you want but full female shrouding is not religious
riderinthestorm
Jan 2012
#86
"Outsiders" can and do make judgements (and pass laws) on practices all the time
riderinthestorm
Jan 2012
#104
NO! You're missing the starting point which is that we've ALWAYS decided what religious practices
riderinthestorm
Jan 2012
#119
Public nudity is prohibited by law. You are being purposefully obtuse.
riderinthestorm
Jan 2012
#137
We are centuries beyond women being able to assert their "rights" to go naked in public
riderinthestorm
Jan 2012
#152
I just fundamentally disagree with your premise about the "start" of the conversation
riderinthestorm
Jan 2012
#182
Boy, are you wrong in this instance. In order to give proper medical care,
Honeycombe8
Jan 2012
#187
I have not commented on any of the things you suggest I have taken a position on
Ms. Toad
Jan 2012
#188
Orthodox Jews are also really bad about the practice of making women 2nd class citizens.
YellowRubberDuckie
Jan 2012
#83
That's 110% untrue, my post history supports that. I oppose ANY religious "shrines" near Ground 0.
riderinthestorm
Jan 2012
#155
That's completely consistent with my position. I'm pretty anti-religious all around.
riderinthestorm
Jan 2012
#158
The position being that the only religious loonies worth getting passionate about are Muslim ones?
Violet_Crumble
Jan 2012
#159
Uhm, you made the accusation first and clearly saved (stalked?) my 1 answer from before
riderinthestorm
Jan 2012
#161
We can and do put restrictions on it. FGM has been argued by Muslims to be a religious right
riderinthestorm
Jan 2012
#105
We can and do make laws governing what people may wear in public. We can and do impose our "views"
riderinthestorm
Jan 2012
#116
Waiting for those who still think the burqa isn't some misogynistic garment to chime in....
riderinthestorm
Jan 2012
#5
I am not always a good person. The doctors should have removed this guy's claim to superiority.
saras
Jan 2012
#17
My favorite bar joke involves surreptitiously ripping up a napkin into little pieces beforehand
Warren DeMontague
Jan 2012
#112
I'd like to know the specific difference between a "religion" and a "cult"
Warren DeMontague
Jan 2012
#35
Wait... Where are all the people lining up to say this sort of shit deserves "cultural tolerance"?
Warren DeMontague
Jan 2012
#33
When people have invisible friends who tell them to act out violently, we call it "mental illness"
Warren DeMontague
Jan 2012
#37
Came back from France in December - Friends there tell me that the younger
GoneOffShore
Jan 2012
#73
As French citizens they're puzzled - Despite being on opposite sides of the political fence
GoneOffShore
Jan 2012
#88
I think that having invisible friends in the sky who talk to you IS a form of mental illness.
Warren DeMontague
Jan 2012
#77
Why? Is the deity supposed to be visible? No. Is the deity supposed to be a friend, of sorts? Yes.
Warren DeMontague
Jan 2012
#110
Not newsworthy, but it's a chance to smear Muslims so it gets lots of media play
CrawlingChaos
Jan 2012
#78
What's astounding is that it took this long for someone to show up & try to apologize for this shit.
Warren DeMontague
Jan 2012
#81
There is a solution. Put this shithead in prison, he attacked a hospital employee.
Warren DeMontague
Jan 2012
#108
How could it have been avoided? By educating this fuckhead that a C-Section requires Burka removal.
Warren DeMontague
Jan 2012
#122
There are at least 4 other links to other sources upthread. Maybe you could read the thread? nt
riderinthestorm
Jan 2012
#138
I've read the thread. None of the other articles differ substantially and seem to echo eachother. nt
ellisonz
Jan 2012
#150
I'm an Atheist. My wife is Jewish. She had a baby at a Catholic Hospital.
Warren DeMontague
Jan 2012
#162
His wife labored for 2 days in that damn burqa!! The staff allowed it!
riderinthestorm
Jan 2012
#124
It doesn't matter if male staff were in the room. His wife needed medical attention and he tried to
riderinthestorm
Jan 2012
#140
I agree. You've made yourself perfectly clear on this thread and I have nothing more to add.nt
riderinthestorm
Jan 2012
#154
Are you seriously advocating for sex segregated hospitals in France?? Really?!
riderinthestorm
Jan 2012
#91
He'd been banned from the room for calling the FEMALE midwife a "rapist" for doing an internal exam.
riderinthestorm
Jan 2012
#107
Don't even bother. You're not properly checking your White Male privilege against Oppressed Peoplez™
Warren DeMontague
Jan 2012
#114
Yeah. Love that line. We've got people who think porn and cheesecake pancakes should be illegal
Warren DeMontague
Jan 2012
#113
People need to remember who the real 'victim' is, here, i.e. the poor misunderstood guy who couldn't
Warren DeMontague
Jan 2012
#109
as a Respiratory Therapist - I have attended hundreds and hundreds of C-sections in Saudi Arabia
Douglas Carpenter
Jan 2012
#80
Yes, NOT France where you believe they should have gender segregated hospitals to accomodate Muslims
riderinthestorm
Jan 2012
#142
The woman in the OP was being seen by a FEMALE midwife, who was accused of being a RAPIST!
riderinthestorm
Jan 2012
#149
I have never heard of anything like this in a total of 25 years in the Middle East
Douglas Carpenter
Jan 2012
#139
But you know, in FRANCE, the medical staff are being "culturally insensitive" to remove the burqa
riderinthestorm
Jan 2012
#141
my problem with this story is that it begins with the title "French Muslim Jailed" and then thestory
Douglas Carpenter
Jan 2012
#143
there is no disputing that Bernie Madoff is a Jew but we don't report the story in a bigoted manner
Douglas Carpenter
Jan 2012
#147
Are you really asserting the guy's religion in the OP had nothing to do with his actions? nt
riderinthestorm
Jan 2012
#153
no more than a snake handler in the mountains of West Virginia has to do with Christianity
Douglas Carpenter
Jan 2012
#166
Oh, I completely agree with you. However, the guy in the story obviously does not.
riderinthestorm
Jan 2012
#183
Foxnews? Think they would post an article like this if the guy was an insane christian?
Fuzz
Jan 2012
#92
There are at least 4 other links to other sources upthread. Maybe you could read the thread? nt
riderinthestorm
Jan 2012
#93
Do you really think he's mentally ill? Or are you inferring he's religiously crazy?
riderinthestorm
Jan 2012
#126
Upthread, people are arguing it's the hospital's fault for not being more 'culturally sensitive'.
Warren DeMontague
Jan 2012
#163
at least I never beat the crap out of someone attempting to deliver my baby
Warren DeMontague
Jan 2012
#191
Since you are passing judgement without having any context of the convo perhaps you can read
riderinthestorm
Jan 2012
#184
Oh FFS!! You admit you haven't read the thread or subthread and yet pass summary judgement??!!
riderinthestorm
Jan 2012
#195
I was at a newsstand, and a man I didn't know bought a copy of a magazine called "Juggs"
Warren DeMontague
Jan 2012
#118