General Discussion

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)

104. "Outsiders" can and do make judgements (and pass laws) on practices all the time

Sat Jan 14, 2012, 03:16 PM

Jan 2012

that fall within a cultural/religious split. And it is morally supportable regardless of how you feel.

The KKK is a Christian organization but we've outlawed the costume in many areas. Morally supportable? You bet.

FGM is considered a religious obligation for many Muslims. Yet we've outlawed that. Moral? I hope you agree.

You see? "Outsiders" can and do make judgements and outlaw "religious" practices all the time. Because some of them are most definitely more cultural than 'religious" (if they ever were).

I would stipulate that any practice designed to erase women from society is immoral. I have no problem advocating for it's removal by law, in our society.

Funny that I don't see you advocating for the 'rights" of Aborigines to go naked in the courtrooms/banks/classrooms (you want your son taught by an Aborigine woman in "full religious dress&quot ? etc. etc. Yet it's certainly a "religious right" we've decided as a community that we aren't going to allow.

Edit history

Please sign in to view edit histories.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

196 replies

= new reply since forum marked as read

Highlight:

Man punches nurse for removing wife's burqa during c-section [View all] Liberal_in_LA Jan 2012 OP

see, now that's weird limpyhobbler Jan 2012 #1

men like that need to change places. roguevalley Jan 2012 #39

We are fragile beings who try to compensate Dragonbreathp9d Jan 2012 #64

Backward freak! Odin2005 Jan 2012 #2

I am sooooooo sick of crazy people. nt valerief Jan 2012 #3

Me, too. And tired of people giving so-called excuses for them. nt Honeycombe8 Jan 2012 #185

Well then, he can view the next ten years of his wife and child's life.... through bars. hlthe2b Jan 2012 #4

not ten years, six months. Liberal_in_LA Jan 2012 #6

well, he needs to be kept away from her forever nt arely staircase Jan 2012 #9

ten years was my sentence... Six months is hardly enough. hlthe2b Jan 2012 #12

10 years??!! France's burqa laws are so mild, this guy may get a fine only. riderinthestorm Jan 2012 #11

He's being jailed for punching the nurse - not for wearing a burqa. Matariki Jan 2012 #26

You mean, not for FORCING HIS WIFE TO WEAR A BURQA! That only brings a fine. riderinthestorm Jan 2012 #29

Yeah, no kidding. Matariki Jan 2012 #30

According to some DU'ers Muslim woman want to wear the burqa snooper2 Jan 2012 #47

That is a gross mischaracterization of what has been said Ms. Toad Jan 2012 #66

The burqa is a cultural artifact meant to oppress and diminish women. It's not religious. riderinthestorm Jan 2012 #68

Actually.... dixiegrrrrl Jan 2012 #70

Nope, there is no requirement in the Quran for complete shrouding. riderinthestorm Jan 2012 #71

The assumption being that all men are potential rapists with no self control whatsoever. aquart Jan 2012 #106

Religion and culture are not always clearly delineated Ms. Toad Jan 2012 #72

We can and do make laws on what women can wear in the public sphere. riderinthestorm Jan 2012 #74

And there are are a number of laws that my religion conflicts with (or has) Ms. Toad Jan 2012 #76

You can try to rationalize it all you want but full female shrouding is not religious riderinthestorm Jan 2012 #86

Exactly -- just like FGM obamanut2012 Jan 2012 #96

It is not rationalization - it is a fundamental characteristic of religion Ms. Toad Jan 2012 #103

"Outsiders" can and do make judgements (and pass laws) on practices all the time riderinthestorm Jan 2012 #104

You are missing the starting point - Ms. Toad Jan 2012 #117

NO! You're missing the starting point which is that we've ALWAYS decided what religious practices riderinthestorm Jan 2012 #119

You have no idea how I feel about the dress of native people Ms. Toad Jan 2012 #132

Public nudity is prohibited by law. You are being purposefully obtuse. riderinthestorm Jan 2012 #137

You might want to go back and reread and respond to what I actually wrote Ms. Toad Jan 2012 #146

We are centuries beyond women being able to assert their "rights" to go naked in public riderinthestorm Jan 2012 #152

The right of self determination for all people is a core value for me Ms. Toad Jan 2012 #178

I just fundamentally disagree with your premise about the "start" of the conversation riderinthestorm Jan 2012 #182

No it wasn't you - Ms. Toad Jan 2012 #189

Boy, are you wrong in this instance. In order to give proper medical care, Honeycombe8 Jan 2012 #187

I have not commented on any of the things you suggest I have taken a position on Ms. Toad Jan 2012 #188

Orthodox Jews are also really bad about the practice of making women 2nd class citizens. YellowRubberDuckie Jan 2012 #83

Fine with me. nt riderinthestorm Jan 2012 #85

Then why haven't you ever focused on anything but Muslims? Violet_Crumble Jan 2012 #151

That's 110% untrue, my post history supports that. I oppose ANY religious "shrines" near Ground 0. riderinthestorm Jan 2012 #155

Sorry, but it was true... Violet_Crumble Jan 2012 #156

That's completely consistent with my position. I'm pretty anti-religious all around. riderinthestorm Jan 2012 #158

The position being that the only religious loonies worth getting passionate about are Muslim ones? Violet_Crumble Jan 2012 #159

Uhm, you made the accusation first and clearly saved (stalked?) my 1 answer from before riderinthestorm Jan 2012 #161

I didn't realise doing a quick google was stalking. There ya go! Violet_Crumble Jan 2012 #164

Any society that does not have a First Amendment that is. former9thward Jan 2012 #102

We can and do put restrictions on it. FGM has been argued by Muslims to be a religious right riderinthestorm Jan 2012 #105

There are society interests which overrule religious concerns. former9thward Jan 2012 #115

We can and do make laws governing what people may wear in public. We can and do impose our "views" riderinthestorm Jan 2012 #116

Waiting for those who still think the burqa isn't some misogynistic garment to chime in.... riderinthestorm Jan 2012 #5

How about begging your husband to allow exam by doctor? Liberal_in_LA Jan 2012 #7

HE threatened HER with divorce? Quantess Jan 2012 #8

Well "divorce" would probably be more like killing her. chrisa Jan 2012 #41

This poor woman has to LIVE with this guy? Awful. virgogal Jan 2012 #10

She has to take a new baby home to THAT. EFerrari Jan 2012 #15

This guy is nuts. DURHAM D Jan 2012 #13

+1 jberryhill Jan 2012 #24

That poor woman must have been in so much pain! Auntie Bush Jan 2012 #14

If she's in a burqa during labor and delivery, he doesn't love her. riderinthestorm Jan 2012 #18

+1 Blue_Tires Jan 2012 #49

Not only that... YellowRubberDuckie Jan 2012 #84

That's not entirely true... ellisonz Jan 2012 #170

Foxnews...must be true n/t riverwalker Jan 2012 #16

Another source DesertRat Jan 2012 #19

Well, just because it's true, doesn't mean it's true. Warren DeMontague Jan 2012 #34

This message was self-deleted by its author Obamanaut Jan 2012 #56

Here's a link to the French paper La Provence GoneOffShore Jan 2012 #69

I am not always a good person. The doctors should have removed this guy's claim to superiority. saras Jan 2012 #17

That guy is almost as bad as us guys in the US The Straight Story Jan 2012 #20

There's no doubt that there are nuts like him in the US too. nt Liquorice Jan 2012 #60

Wow. I'd send the guy to jail for about 10 years and then deport him. And kestrel91316 Jan 2012 #21

Go to jail, go directly to jail, do not pass Go /nt jberryhill Jan 2012 #22

religion, the gift that keeps on ... taking lol nt msongs Jan 2012 #23

Precisely. LanternWaste Jan 2012 #45

And I bet he is one of those who insists his wife VOLUNTARILY wears a burqa. pnwmom Jan 2012 #25

Its all voluntary etherealtruth Jan 2012 #62

I can just imagine what happened to that woman sufrommich Jan 2012 #27

Why do you hate all men!? ZombieHorde Jan 2012 #28

So the guy says to the Genie, "I didn't wish for a 12 inch PIANIST!" Warren DeMontague Jan 2012 #36

I love that joke! mainer Jan 2012 #94

My favorite bar joke involves surreptitiously ripping up a napkin into little pieces beforehand Warren DeMontague Jan 2012 #112

That sounds like crazy cult behavior to me. The burqa itself Liquorice Jan 2012 #31

I'd like to know the specific difference between a "religion" and a "cult" Warren DeMontague Jan 2012 #35

A religion is a cult people have decided to accept MattBaggins Jan 2012 #50

I think it's more like, "steal $100, you're a filthy criminal" Warren DeMontague Jan 2012 #53

And gets large enough treestar Jan 2012 #54

I know what you mean. But I do think people can Liquorice Jan 2012 #58

religion has more members than a cult. piratefish08 Jan 2012 #82

Men like these have zero value to society Marrah_G Jan 2012 #32

Wait... Where are all the people lining up to say this sort of shit deserves "cultural tolerance"? Warren DeMontague Jan 2012 #33

Yep, this week on DU Charlemagne Jan 2012 #61

When people have invisible friends who tell them to act out violently, we call it "mental illness" Warren DeMontague Jan 2012 #37

They've actually done studies on that, you knpw obamanut2012 Jan 2012 #97

How did this person become a French citizen? Snake Alchemist Jan 2012 #38

Because someone has to do the construction work in France. JVS Jan 2012 #40

That doesn't sound like France. Snake Alchemist Jan 2012 #43

He may well have been born in France to French parents KamaAina Jan 2012 #44

Came back from France in December - Friends there tell me that the younger GoneOffShore Jan 2012 #73

Did they have any ideas as to the cause? nt Snake Alchemist Jan 2012 #87

As French citizens they're puzzled - Despite being on opposite sides of the political fence GoneOffShore Jan 2012 #88

That is troubling. nt Snake Alchemist Jan 2012 #89

How about the decade of trumped-up pre-emptive war in the Middle East? nt dougolat Jan 2012 #171

By the French? nt Snake Alchemist Jan 2012 #179

no, by the West in general dougolat Jan 2012 #180

That seems a bit too general an enemy. nt Snake Alchemist Jan 2012 #181

There are all kinds of religious fanatics WI_DEM Jan 2012 #42

well that lady sure picked a winner... Blue_Tires Jan 2012 #46

What makes you think she had any choice in the matter? nt msanthrope Jan 2012 #51

Yup -- doubt she did obamanut2012 Jan 2012 #98

The Religion of Peace. downwardly_mobile Jan 2012 #48

His behavior and beliefs have nothing to do with Islam obamanut2012 Jan 2012 #100

And cue Faux Noise to use that one guy to condemn the entire religion treestar Jan 2012 #52

Who needs Fox when DUers will do the same job. Union Scribe Jan 2012 #59

Post removed Post removed Jan 2012 #63

Christian nutjob does something similar, I'll say the same thing. Warren DeMontague Jan 2012 #67

At least you qualified it with "fundamentalism" Union Scribe Jan 2012 #75

I think that having invisible friends in the sky who talk to you IS a form of mental illness. Warren DeMontague Jan 2012 #77

And calling continously calling a diety, "an invisible friend in the sky" Fawke Em Jan 2012 #90

Why? Is the deity supposed to be visible? No. Is the deity supposed to be a friend, of sorts? Yes. Warren DeMontague Jan 2012 #110

check the post above yours! dionysus Jan 2012 #65

This message was self-deleted by its author Obamanaut Jan 2012 #55

Sounds like he could use a strait jacket LiberalEsto Jan 2012 #57

Not newsworthy, but it's a chance to smear Muslims so it gets lots of media play CrawlingChaos Jan 2012 #78

Why it took so long for someone to point out this key point is beyond me... ellisonz Jan 2012 #79

What's astounding is that it took this long for someone to show up & try to apologize for this shit. Warren DeMontague Jan 2012 #81

Does it seem like they did a good job communicating with the Father? ellisonz Jan 2012 #101

There is a solution. Put this shithead in prison, he attacked a hospital employee. Warren DeMontague Jan 2012 #108

That's after the fact... ellisonz Jan 2012 #120

How could it have been avoided? By educating this fuckhead that a C-Section requires Burka removal. Warren DeMontague Jan 2012 #122

They don't have female OB/GYNs in France? ellisonz Jan 2012 #125

No, his issue was with both the male and FEMALE staff. riderinthestorm Jan 2012 #128

I'm not ignoring you... ellisonz Jan 2012 #136

There are at least 4 other links to other sources upthread. Maybe you could read the thread? nt riderinthestorm Jan 2012 #138

I've read the thread. None of the other articles differ substantially and seem to echo eachother. nt ellisonz Jan 2012 #150

I'm an Atheist. My wife is Jewish. She had a baby at a Catholic Hospital. Warren DeMontague Jan 2012 #162

His wife labored for 2 days in that damn burqa!! The staff allowed it! riderinthestorm Jan 2012 #124

From the OP story... ellisonz Jan 2012 #130

You COMPLETELY glossed over this part riderinthestorm Jan 2012 #131

The story isn't clear... ellisonz Jan 2012 #134

It doesn't matter if male staff were in the room. His wife needed medical attention and he tried to riderinthestorm Jan 2012 #140

The part where I rush to judgment based on an incomplete account. ellisonz Jan 2012 #148

I agree. You've made yourself perfectly clear on this thread and I have nothing more to add.nt riderinthestorm Jan 2012 #154

Are you seriously advocating for sex segregated hospitals in France?? Really?! riderinthestorm Jan 2012 #91

I'm advocating for cultural sensitivity. n/t ellisonz Jan 2012 #99

He'd been banned from the room for calling the FEMALE midwife a "rapist" for doing an internal exam. riderinthestorm Jan 2012 #107

Don't even bother. You're not properly checking your White Male privilege against Oppressed Peoplez™ Warren DeMontague Jan 2012 #114

Yeah. Love that line. We've got people who think porn and cheesecake pancakes should be illegal Warren DeMontague Jan 2012 #113

"Fucking insane." ellisonz Jan 2012 #121

Have you been here long? Warren DeMontague Jan 2012 #123

2003. I don't make a point of reading porn and pancake threads. ellisonz Jan 2012 #127

Well, we'll always have Paris Warren DeMontague Jan 2012 #167

Yes we will... ellisonz Jan 2012 #168

Puh-leeze. Warren DeMontague Jan 2012 #169

People need to remember who the real 'victim' is, here, i.e. the poor misunderstood guy who couldn't Warren DeMontague Jan 2012 #109

as a Respiratory Therapist - I have attended hundreds and hundreds of C-sections in Saudi Arabia Douglas Carpenter Jan 2012 #80

thanks for the info. Glad women are free to give birth without a burqa Liberal_in_LA Jan 2012 #133

This in *Saudi Arabia* of all places! n/t ellisonz Jan 2012 #135

Yes, NOT France where you believe they should have gender segregated hospitals to accomodate Muslims riderinthestorm Jan 2012 #142

Segregated? ellisonz Jan 2012 #145

The woman in the OP was being seen by a FEMALE midwife, who was accused of being a RAPIST! riderinthestorm Jan 2012 #149

Excellent post! obamanut2012 Jan 2012 #175

I have never heard of anything like this in a total of 25 years in the Middle East Douglas Carpenter Jan 2012 #139

But you know, in FRANCE, the medical staff are being "culturally insensitive" to remove the burqa riderinthestorm Jan 2012 #141

my problem with this story is that it begins with the title "French Muslim Jailed" and then thestory Douglas Carpenter Jan 2012 #143

There are multiple other accounts of the story from other sources riderinthestorm Jan 2012 #144

there is no disputing that Bernie Madoff is a Jew but we don't report the story in a bigoted manner Douglas Carpenter Jan 2012 #147

Are you really asserting the guy's religion in the OP had nothing to do with his actions? nt riderinthestorm Jan 2012 #153

A question for you... Violet_Crumble Jan 2012 #157

I read the story first in a British paper. riderinthestorm Jan 2012 #160

That's not what I asked you.... Violet_Crumble Jan 2012 #165

no more than a snake handler in the mountains of West Virginia has to do with Christianity Douglas Carpenter Jan 2012 #166

Oh, I completely agree with you. However, the guy in the story obviously does not. riderinthestorm Jan 2012 #183

Foxnews? Think they would post an article like this if the guy was an insane christian? Fuzz Jan 2012 #92

There are at least 4 other links to other sources upthread. Maybe you could read the thread? nt riderinthestorm Jan 2012 #93

Okies. That's not what I said though. It's fine. Fuzz Jan 2012 #176

Yeah, but it was a 'peaceful' punch. Edweird Jan 2012 #95

there are mentally ill muslims, too. spanone Jan 2012 #111

Do you really think he's mentally ill? Or are you inferring he's religiously crazy? riderinthestorm Jan 2012 #126

uh oh, you dropped a turd of reason into the punch bowl of hate CrawlingChaos Jan 2012 #129

Upthread, people are arguing it's the hospital's fault for not being more 'culturally sensitive'. Warren DeMontague Jan 2012 #163

nonsensical statement CrawlingChaos Jan 2012 #172

Okay, which is THAT, then? Warren DeMontague Jan 2012 #174

You have done both (n/t) CrawlingChaos Jan 2012 #190

at least I never beat the crap out of someone attempting to deliver my baby Warren DeMontague Jan 2012 #191

Since you are passing judgement without having any context of the convo perhaps you can read riderinthestorm Jan 2012 #184

This thread is full of Muslim-bashing CrawlingChaos Jan 2012 #192

Oh FFS!! You admit you haven't read the thread or subthread and yet pass summary judgement??!! riderinthestorm Jan 2012 #195

That's not my argument. ellisonz Jan 2012 #173

I was at a newsstand, and a man I didn't know bought a copy of a magazine called "Juggs" Warren DeMontague Jan 2012 #118

Could care less about the burqua law in FRANCE JustAnotherGen Jan 2012 #177

not enough people are calling bullshit Enrique Jan 2012 #186

+1 CrawlingChaos Jan 2012 #194

Post removed Post removed Jan 2012 #196

Religion raises its ugly head again! nt aaaaaa5a Jan 2012 #193