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speak easy

(12,590 posts)
Tue Dec 20, 2022, 07:07 AM Dec 2022

The 14th Amendment: 'There need not be a criminal conviction or even criminal charges' [View all]

Perhaps the biggest of those surprises is the inclusion of a referral for inciting and assisting an insurrection and giving aid or comfort to insurrectionists under 18 U.S.C. 2383. That law derives from one first enacted in 1862 during the Civil War to provide for criminal penalties against Confederates and their accomplices attempting a violent secession from the Union.

Although the statute is seldom used, the committee is correct in its assessment that it applies to Mr. Trump’s conduct by summoning and whipping up the insurrectionists on Jan. 6 and then by failing to take action for three hours. The committee offers numerous examples of relevant misconduct, from Mr. Trump’s infamous remarks on the Ellipse, knowing that some of his listeners were armed, to his tweet attacking his vice president, Mike Pence, while the insurrection was underway, to his affectionate comments that day about the rioters (even if asking them to respect law enforcement).

In the 14th Amendment context, citizens could use the committee report to go to their state election officials to argue that Mr. Trump is prohibited from holding office and so from appearing on the ballot. There need not be a criminal conviction or even criminal charges; these citizens can point out that the constitutional prohibition has been prompted by the committee’s evidence. However those decisions by election officials turn out, the next stop will be the courts, which have already held that Section 3 violators can indeed be barred.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/19/opinion/january-6-trump-criminal-referrals.html

The 14th Amendment was enacted to keep former insurrections out of any office, civil or military, in the United States, whether or not they had been charged or convicted under 18 U.S.C. 2383. It does not contemplate the criminal standard of proof - beyond reasonable doubt. It suggests a common sense finding of facts , although as the OP says, 'the next stop will be the courts'.

Trump was the leader of the January 6th insurrection. That was the J6 Committee's finding of fact - something that will have to tested in the courts, but does not presume a criminal conviction. Can anyone seriously suggest that Jefferson Davis could have stood for Congress after the civil war because he was not convicted under 18 U.S.C. 2383, or other Federal criminal statute?
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K&R 2naSalit Dec 2022 #1
Jefferson Davis was pardoned in 1978 by President Carter following an act of Congress. Rhiannon12866 Dec 2022 #2
I bet Ol' Jeff didn't even thank Jimmie. But more to the point, who will decide if Trump's actions 3Hotdogs Dec 2022 #5
What is not vague lefthandedskyhook Dec 2022 #7
"or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof" includes doing nothing for hours but watch TV NullTuples Dec 2022 #29
An excellent observation. Beastly Boy Dec 2022 #3
Get on to the part of 14A where they shall not serve, mechanisms unspecified bucolic_frolic Dec 2022 #4
Applies to people who have taken an oath of office wnylib Dec 2022 #24
Couy Griffin can never run for public office. No conviction duhneece Dec 2022 #6
What's justice for markodochartaigh Dec 2022 #8
He was convicted forthemiddle Dec 2022 #16
You're right. nt duhneece Dec 2022 #33
Actually nothing needs to be proven. Voters have the power within their hands on every level of Samrob Dec 2022 #9
Exactly! inthewind21 Dec 2022 #15
Same as we have the power to elect? AKwannabe Dec 2022 #22
Currently voters in 22 states voted to keep the party of sedition in power. NullTuples Dec 2022 #30
Without a criminal conviction, nobody is going to get disqualified. Nt Fiendish Thingy Dec 2022 #10
We agree on this! Scrivener7 Dec 2022 #11
That is also Andrew Weissmann's opinion. gab13by13 Dec 2022 #13
Not necessarily. Beastly Boy Dec 2022 #17
If that is the case, the be prepared for Biden to be disqualified in several red states. Nt Fiendish Thingy Dec 2022 #21
Challenged, yes. But that will happen anyway Beastly Boy Dec 2022 #26
Andrew Weissmann thinks this law is on shaky grounds. gab13by13 Dec 2022 #12
Weissmann is not Constitutional lawyer. speak easy Dec 2022 #32
For the health of Democracy in this country there must be justice, must include trump in jail Escurumbele Dec 2022 #14
Excellent! Made me think.... Did anything happen on those Capitol Laura PourMeADrink Dec 2022 #18
Context matters. lambchopp59 Dec 2022 #19
Tribe on "The Last Word" suggested that the House vote to impeach TFG is sufficient grounds to Pepsidog Dec 2022 #20
The trouble is there are an entire set of constitutional 'rules' that govern the election of a Demsrule86 Dec 2022 #23
K&R Thanks for posting. n/t TeamProg Dec 2022 #25
It wasn't just trump. republianmushroom Dec 2022 #27
👆👆 crickets Dec 2022 #28
What's to stop MAGA from using it the same way? NullTuples Dec 2022 #31
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