General Discussion

Happy Hoosier

(9,545 posts)

12. I don't disagree with that, but...

Mon Jan 2, 2023, 11:02 AM

Jan 2023

... I have yet to hear what that means.

I'm a systems engineer. One thing we do is transformation planning. We define the current state of the system and define the desired state of the system and devise a plan to move from the current to desired state.

I never really hear from lefties what exactly that "desired state" is other than very vague descriptions like "workers' cooperatives" or vague discussions of "decommodification." But I never see a detailed end state. And worse, I never see an actual plan of how to get from here to there other than hand-wavy stuff like we always hear from Bernie or Liz. Stuff like "the people of will demand!" or ""the people will rise up." Yeah, that's not a plan.

So to to "work on this" (whcih I agree with), we need to know what that plan looks like and what the next step is.

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Capitalism Kills Nearly 1 Million Americans Per Year [View all] AntivaxHunters Jan 2023 OP

KNR and bookmarking. niyad Jan 2023 #1

And the solution is...? brooklynite Jan 2023 #2

The Nordic model, regulated capitalism with robust benefits for citizens such as universal... brush Jan 2023 #15

This comes closest to the way it used to be prior to Reagan slightlv Jan 2023 #69

This has my vote! Dave says Jan 2023 #82

Yup! IrishAfricanAmerican Jan 2023 #84

The Nordic model? former9thward Jan 2023 #111

Now, now, don't bring facts into it! nt EX500rider Jan 2023 #113

Are we to believe that. Where's the breakout on POC deaths and police killings? brush Jan 2023 #122

It's not facts, it's taking one raw number, out of thousands of comparative measures, and falsely Celerity Jan 2023 #123

Any thoughts on this.... electric_blue68 Jan 2023 #141

The darkness related suicide rate has been vastly reduced via vitamin supplements & sunlamps/tanning Celerity Jan 2023 #142

Very glad to hear that the Vits & sunlamps etc have helped! And TY for these beautiful🧡photos! electric_blue68 Jan 2023 #210

Thank you, the old reliable contrarian. brush Jan 2023 #121

That is not what the OP was about and you know it. former9thward Jan 2023 #124

Grow up. The Nordic model is capitalism too,,, brush Jan 2023 #135

:) Almost all DU's socialists are really capitalists. Hortensis Jan 2023 #183

Another way of looking at it, and valid. brush Jan 2023 #192

US capitalism, on balance, is vastly under-regulated and more rapacious than Nordic capitalism Celerity Jan 2023 #193

Thank you, great post. Rapacious is such an apt word. brush Jan 2023 #202

Cultural differences are often overlooked. betsuni Jan 2023 #203

Police killings are not statistically very large in a country of 320 million EX500rider Jan 2023 #131

See post 135. And I'll bet you police killings of Blacks and POCs... brush Jan 2023 #136

Bogus statistic. Do not confuse death rate with life expectancy Bernardo de La Paz Jan 2023 #146

The OP is about capitalism "killiing" a million a year. former9thward Jan 2023 #169

Yeah I am guessing it is not a peer reviewed study. nt EX500rider Jan 2023 #170

You forget the basic fact that the older the demographic skew, the higher the death rate. . . . nt Bernardo de La Paz Jan 2023 #201

I became impressed w the Nordic model as I found out more about it around 35 yrs ago electric_blue68 Jan 2023 #140

Kind of like how "capitalism OR socialism" binaries get us nowhere ck4829 Jan 2023 #22

Musk's takeover debacle of twitter shows billionaires... brush Jan 2023 #76

True, very true. And yet... ck4829 Jan 2023 #80

Tell them that both Muck and trump started with millions in... brush Jan 2023 #88

This☝️ I_UndergroundPanther Jan 2023 #128

Oh, it gets us somewhere. Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #29

THIS. It's encouraging that most who say they want socialism Hortensis Jan 2023 #185

+1,000,000 Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #189

This rebranding of liberal Democratic policies as democratic socialism, but that democratic betsuni Jan 2023 #199

:) Have faith. The "NOT liberal Democrats" copied the deceit Hortensis Jan 2023 #204

Yeah, socialism is the answer Farmer-Rick Jan 2023 #30

Social Security, Medicare and unemployment insurance are not examples of "socialism" Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #38

Since when? Farmer-Rick Jan 2023 #66

Since always. Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #72

And pretending there are no socialist systems in the US Farmer-Rick Jan 2023 #158

Simple truth. Our ONLY/CLOSEST "socialized" system is the VA. Hortensis Jan 2023 #186

When ideologies on the extremes have no real accomplishments of their own--aside from Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #188

DU's for "politically liberal people" who want to elect more Democrats. Hortensis Jan 2023 #200

Social democracy is not socialism... brooklynite Jan 2023 #83

Actually I_UndergroundPanther Jan 2023 #227

An insurance policy, no different than health, home owners and life insurance. paleotn Jan 2023 #90

A hard pass for me as well. Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #112

Don't forget Central American workers' paradises, Hortensis Jan 2023 #190

You have to cite a country with a sustained and successful socialist... brush Jan 2023 #166

No I don't has to Farmer-Rick Jan 2023 #168

What I described is rudimentary capitalism... brush Jan 2023 #175

No, that's just traditional markets that have been around for thousands of years Farmer-Rick Jan 2023 #181

Come on, you tout socialism but still haven't cited... brush Jan 2023 #191

Yeah what always happens was the motto in the Soviet Union which was: EX500rider Jan 2023 #171

OK , now you're talking about Communism Farmer-Rick Jan 2023 #182

Communism is just a more extreme form of socialism EX500rider Jan 2023 #194

Not according to Karl Marx Farmer-Rick Jan 2023 #216

But capitalism is bad Dave says Jan 2023 #81

exactly; it's hardly "arbitrary" anarch Jan 2023 #87

Mao, Lenin, Stalin and Pol Pot would agree with you.... paleotn Jan 2023 #89

But I didn't argue from the extreme Dave says Jan 2023 #96

I'm relieved you have no objections BannonsLiver Jan 2023 #107

Markets over society malaise Jan 2023 #3

What is the actual solution, though? Happy Hoosier Jan 2023 #5

Less Capitalism, more Socialism AntivaxHunters Jan 2023 #6

That's a slogan, not a plan. Happy Hoosier Jan 2023 #11

No it's literally a plan AntivaxHunters Jan 2023 #13

Healthcare isn't "socialism." Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #39

Not so simple & NOT binary / either-or. Socialistic-capitalism is better distribution of wealth Bernardo de La Paz Jan 2023 #57

Socialism isn't about better distribution of resources. That is wholly inaccurate. Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #67

State-ownership of production is premised on better distribution of resources, but rarely efficient Bernardo de La Paz Jan 2023 #70

It never works out that way. Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #74

That's my point: that it never works out that way. Modern liberalism is socialistic-capitalism Bernardo de La Paz Jan 2023 #75

I think we are in general agreement Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #77

Socialist systems have failed and resulted in worse poverty . Look at Venezuela . JI7 Jan 2023 #23

What are the metrics of "failed"? Right in our own country... ck4829 Jan 2023 #24

The comparison that you cited was wnylib Jan 2023 #99

Re: FDR see my post #211 electric_blue68 Jan 2023 #212

What makes Nordic countries successful is their government intervention Farmer-Rick Jan 2023 #36

You are dead wrong. All these countries have advanced capitalist economies. Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #41

Nope, you make lots of claims but provide no facts Farmer-Rick Jan 2023 #49

What facts do you need to be convinced that the Nordic countries all have advanced capitalist Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #51

That their socialist systems Farmer-Rick Jan 2023 #151

+1 spot on! Emile Jan 2023 #155

Try looking up the definition of Socialism EX500rider Jan 2023 #114

Yes some of the wealth in those countries is owned Farmer-Rick Jan 2023 #154

Because we sanction such countries AntivaxHunters Jan 2023 #48

Repeat after me....ONE DOES NOT WORK WITHOUT THE OTHER. paleotn Jan 2023 #91

Repeat after me AntivaxHunters Jan 2023 #104

This meme is utterly dishonest. Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #125

Fire dept.s have zero to do with socialism EX500rider Jan 2023 #132

That would depend AntivaxHunters Jan 2023 #134

Since fire depts have zero to do with the means of production, no EX500rider Jan 2023 #172

Norway and Finland are socio-capitalist. Blended capitalism. Venezuela is command-and-control Bernardo de La Paz Jan 2023 #59

Look at Apalachia, Detroit, The Rio Grande Valley AntivaxHunters Jan 2023 #152

The US has a far higher population and people in those US areas live better than the poor in JI7 Jan 2023 #159

No they do not AntivaxHunters Jan 2023 #160

lol, if poor people lived better in Venezuela than in the US you would have people going to JI7 Jan 2023 #161

People move outside the US every day AntivaxHunters Jan 2023 #162

They aren't moving to Venezuela where you claim poor people live better JI7 Jan 2023 #164

As a % of population nowhere even close: EX500rider Jan 2023 #173

There is not too much capitalism; there is not enough socialism: basic income, healthcare, shelter. Bernardo de La Paz Jan 2023 #54

Less capitalism is still capitalism. paleotn Jan 2023 #73

Yes its still capitalism and it harms most of us. I_UndergroundPanther Jan 2023 #130

As extreme poverty declines worldwide with the spread of capitalism I'd say it does not EX500rider Jan 2023 #133

We're at historic income inequality in America AntivaxHunters Jan 2023 #153

Sounds easy to implement Dorian Gray Jan 2023 #147

Social Democracy/Democratic Socialism malaise Jan 2023 #8

I don't disagree with that, but... Happy Hoosier Jan 2023 #12

Read these books if you have trouble visualizing a real socialist society Farmer-Rick Jan 2023 #44

yes Locrian Jan 2023 #63

So true Farmer-Rick Jan 2023 #68

good sugestion will check it out - n/t Locrian Jan 2023 #106

Utopia had slaves Shrek Jan 2023 #143

Hilarious that "Utopia" is recommended! betsuni Jan 2023 #144

Not to mention the authoritarianism and the surveillance state Shrek Jan 2023 #149

Some people like the idea of authoritarianism/totalitarianism. Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #197

Yeah, that utopia would never be a real utopia Farmer-Rick Jan 2023 #150

LOL Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #198

Social democracy, like we have here in Sweden, is NOT democratic socialism. Celerity Jan 2023 #25

We can debate this malaise Jan 2023 #27

Manley's PNP government did take over a large chunk of the means of production. Celerity Jan 2023 #37

The utility companies were run by the government as was JOS (the urban bus company) malaise Jan 2023 #97

You are entirely correct to push back on the false conflation of Social Democracy Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #43

The policies and programmes they advocate for are not socialist, and those policies and Celerity Jan 2023 #78

I simply disagree. Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #79

Agree to disagree, and I am far from naive. Celerity Jan 2023 #108

Believe what you will. Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #109

you make my exact point for me, thank you Celerity Jan 2023 #115

We disagree about his intentions. Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #116

Again you make my point for me Celerity Jan 2023 #119

No, quite to the contrary. Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #120

These are not synonymous terms. Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #34

Social Democracies also don't have dictators n/t TexasBushwhacker Jan 2023 #56

Correct. Social Democracies have liberal political and economic values. Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #64

This message was self-deleted by its author malaise Jan 2023 #9

Agreed. See post 15. brush Jan 2023 #19

Move beyond the isms. Return to small, laterally-construct community groups who have real Magoo48 Jan 2023 #86

Actually, Marx was an idiot in the other direction. paleotn Jan 2023 #45

I agree💯% I_UndergroundPanther Jan 2023 #129

K&R 2naSalit Jan 2023 #4

Yeah, my cousin died of low education. padfun Jan 2023 #7

Wow AntivaxHunters Jan 2023 #10

Yeah I wondered how they figured out that one.. EX500rider Jan 2023 #174

That's not capitalism. It's racism and other bigotry JI7 Jan 2023 #14

No it's Capitalism AntivaxHunters Jan 2023 #16

You are correct malaise Jan 2023 #28

What malarky. Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #35

A little bit from column A, a little bit from column B ck4829 Jan 2023 #20

K&R ck4829 Jan 2023 #17

Notice that almost all the developed nations in the world Progressive dog Jan 2023 #18

This is incorrect AntivaxHunters Jan 2023 #50

The previous poster is not incorrect, and your meme does nothing to make a point to the contrary. Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #53

So everyone who's ever died in the last 200+ years.... paleotn Jan 2023 #92

Read it again AntivaxHunters Jan 2023 #102

Wars predates capitalism. EX500rider Jan 2023 #176

Complete and utter BS... Polybius Jan 2023 #95

That is so wrong. Progressive dog Jan 2023 #206

Wait until you hear about the all the First Nations people killed AntivaxHunters Jan 2023 #231

What kind of healthcare did they have 125 years ago? Progressive dog Jan 2023 #232

capitalist economic systems definitely kill fewer people in the developed world than anarch Jan 2023 #103

In spite of this "exploitation" Progressive dog Jan 2023 #207

K&R Emile Jan 2023 #21

The fact we have for profit healthcare mountain grammy Jan 2023 #26

Yep. We need to start calling the problems associated with this system "POLICY FAILURES" ck4829 Jan 2023 #32

+1000 mountain grammy Jan 2023 #61

Well said. This gets to the core of the problem. nt GoodRaisin Jan 2023 #118

The UK, the EU, Japan, Australia are all capitalist nations.... paleotn Jan 2023 #58

Agreed, if not THE worst problems, definitely near the top. We have so many problems today, Ziggysmom Jan 2023 #209

Does this include.... purr-rat beauty Jan 2023 #31

I think so ck4829 Jan 2023 #33

Kickin' Faux pas Jan 2023 #40

How about all the deaths due to opioid abuse? FakeNoose Jan 2023 #42

Somebody (The Sackler family and Purdue Pharma) made lots and lots of money though ck4829 Jan 2023 #46

Yes but the opioid victims weren't necessarily poor or uneducated FakeNoose Jan 2023 #47

Capitalism prevents more than 1 million deaths per year Bernardo de La Paz Jan 2023 #52

Yes! Very well said. paleotn Jan 2023 #60

+1 gulliver Jan 2023 #65

the goal of socialism is communism anarch Jan 2023 #98

Only if you are an all or nothing thinker Bernardo de La Paz Jan 2023 #101

I see it as a matter of intent anarch Jan 2023 #105

Good thing we don't have a system that is all-or-nothing. Bernardo de La Paz Jan 2023 #110

I can see this is a pointless conversation, but isn't Vietnam a communist country? anarch Jan 2023 #139

And you haven't? Suuuuure . . . nt Bernardo de La Paz Jan 2023 #145

... lapucelle Jan 2023 #205

I fear that the left does the same thing to capitalism... paleotn Jan 2023 #55

+1 betsuni Jan 2023 #138

The vast majority of Democrats are pro-Capitalism gulliver Jan 2023 #62

Among wealthy countries, the maternal mortality rate in the US is the worst ck4829 Jan 2023 #71

"When compared to 10 other cherry picked countries" EX500rider Jan 2023 #229

+1,000,000 Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #117

Can our capitalistic system deal with climate change? How can a system jalan48 Jan 2023 #85

do you mean, can it continue to generate profit? anarch Jan 2023 #94

Yes, I'm sure corporations will figure out a way to capitalize off of people's misery. jalan48 Jan 2023 #100

Sorry, not sorry, it's SOCIALISM and corporations have been using it for years RANDYWILDMAN Jan 2023 #93

yep... myohmy2 Jan 2023 #126

I fucking hate capitalism. I_UndergroundPanther Jan 2023 #127

And where is the non-capitalist utopia you'd rather be? EX500rider Jan 2023 #177

I dont know but I do know I_UndergroundPanther Jan 2023 #225

In the words of George Santos, Invisible People has "embellished" the conclusions of the study. mahatmakanejeeves Jan 2023 #137

Uhhh no AntivaxHunters Jan 2023 #156

The study did not say what Invisible People claimed it said. mahatmakanejeeves Jan 2023 #157

lol No, I'm just able to make a logical conclusion AntivaxHunters Jan 2023 #163

So make stuff up because the ends justify the means? Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #178

This is Both Sides Corrupt Myth: "Many politicians who could directly influence change are getting betsuni Jan 2023 #148

DURec leftstreet Jan 2023 #165

"hoarding more of the resourses" treestar Jan 2023 #167

And enables unprecedented prosperity for over 330,000,000 Americans. Hortensis Jan 2023 #179

+1 betsuni Jan 2023 #187

The official US poverty rate in 2021 was 11.6 percent, with 37.9 million people in poverty. Celerity Jan 2023 #215

:) Only curious if you look at little select numbers and don't Hortensis Jan 2023 #217

Your calling 40 plus million Americans living in poverty 'little select numbers' says a lot. Celerity Jan 2023 #218

Well, come on. Strawmanning and spinning people's words Hortensis Jan 2023 #219

Strawman? I'm one who's consistently posited since I joined DU that the Nordics are NOT socialist Celerity Jan 2023 #220

Claiming that those who self-describe as socialists and/or democratic socialists are confused about Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #221

False frame of what I said AND also ignores the evidence I have presented a multitude of times Celerity Jan 2023 #222

No, it is not a false frame. Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #223

This message was self-deleted by its author Celerity Jan 2023 #224

Yeah I get the feeling many American's really don't know what poverty is like in the 3erd World EX500rider Jan 2023 #230

We need a vaccine against the spread of disinformation. Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #180

'invisiblepeople.tv' has only the best disinformation Bonx Jan 2023 #184

Capitalism saw Americans give birth to... Locutusofborg Jan 2023 #195

I believe this involved a different procedure. NT mahatmakanejeeves Jan 2023 #196

lol this fuckin thread WhiskeyGrinder Jan 2023 #208

FDR's Second Bill of Rights Or Economic Bill of Rights electric_blue68 Jan 2023 #211

Hartmann reviewed Cass Sunstein's 2004 book, "The Second Bill of Rights, FDR's Unfinished Revolution betsuni Jan 2023 #213

Interesting, I'll have to look for that! electric_blue68 Jan 2023 #214

Those who thrive on domination I_UndergroundPanther Jan 2023 #226

We're certainly going to have to fight for more of these things... electric_blue68 Jan 2023 #228