General Discussion

Celerity

(54,595 posts)

25. Social democracy, like we have here in Sweden, is NOT democratic socialism.

Mon Jan 2, 2023, 11:49 AM

Jan 2023

The two terms are not at all interchangeable.

The Nordic model of social democracy is not socialist, as we have a vibrant, robust (and well regulated) capitalism-based private sector, that works synergistically with our expansive welfare state (folkhemmet) to provide one of the highest quality of life outcomes on the planet.

Probably my biggest disagreement with Sanders, AOC, et al, is when they falsely self label as democratic socialists, when they and their programmes are just bog standard social democratic ones.

No federally elected US Democrat advocates for the state to take over the means of production (Sanders himself has said he doesn't want that multiple times, as I have posted numerous times here before), which is a core tenet of an actual socialist nation state, democratic or otherwise.

I have been pushing back on this subject here since I joined DU.

Edit history

Please sign in to view edit histories.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

232 replies

= new reply since forum marked as read

Highlight:

Capitalism Kills Nearly 1 Million Americans Per Year [View all] AntivaxHunters Jan 2023 OP

KNR and bookmarking. niyad Jan 2023 #1

And the solution is...? brooklynite Jan 2023 #2

The Nordic model, regulated capitalism with robust benefits for citizens such as universal... brush Jan 2023 #15

This comes closest to the way it used to be prior to Reagan slightlv Jan 2023 #69

This has my vote! Dave says Jan 2023 #82

Yup! IrishAfricanAmerican Jan 2023 #84

The Nordic model? former9thward Jan 2023 #111

Now, now, don't bring facts into it! nt EX500rider Jan 2023 #113

Are we to believe that. Where's the breakout on POC deaths and police killings? brush Jan 2023 #122

It's not facts, it's taking one raw number, out of thousands of comparative measures, and falsely Celerity Jan 2023 #123

Any thoughts on this.... electric_blue68 Jan 2023 #141

The darkness related suicide rate has been vastly reduced via vitamin supplements & sunlamps/tanning Celerity Jan 2023 #142

Very glad to hear that the Vits & sunlamps etc have helped! And TY for these beautiful🧡photos! electric_blue68 Jan 2023 #210

Thank you, the old reliable contrarian. brush Jan 2023 #121

That is not what the OP was about and you know it. former9thward Jan 2023 #124

Grow up. The Nordic model is capitalism too,,, brush Jan 2023 #135

:) Almost all DU's socialists are really capitalists. Hortensis Jan 2023 #183

Another way of looking at it, and valid. brush Jan 2023 #192

US capitalism, on balance, is vastly under-regulated and more rapacious than Nordic capitalism Celerity Jan 2023 #193

Thank you, great post. Rapacious is such an apt word. brush Jan 2023 #202

Cultural differences are often overlooked. betsuni Jan 2023 #203

Police killings are not statistically very large in a country of 320 million EX500rider Jan 2023 #131

See post 135. And I'll bet you police killings of Blacks and POCs... brush Jan 2023 #136

Bogus statistic. Do not confuse death rate with life expectancy Bernardo de La Paz Jan 2023 #146

The OP is about capitalism "killiing" a million a year. former9thward Jan 2023 #169

Yeah I am guessing it is not a peer reviewed study. nt EX500rider Jan 2023 #170

You forget the basic fact that the older the demographic skew, the higher the death rate. . . . nt Bernardo de La Paz Jan 2023 #201

I became impressed w the Nordic model as I found out more about it around 35 yrs ago electric_blue68 Jan 2023 #140

Kind of like how "capitalism OR socialism" binaries get us nowhere ck4829 Jan 2023 #22

Musk's takeover debacle of twitter shows billionaires... brush Jan 2023 #76

True, very true. And yet... ck4829 Jan 2023 #80

Tell them that both Muck and trump started with millions in... brush Jan 2023 #88

This☝️ I_UndergroundPanther Jan 2023 #128

Oh, it gets us somewhere. Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #29

THIS. It's encouraging that most who say they want socialism Hortensis Jan 2023 #185

+1,000,000 Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #189

This rebranding of liberal Democratic policies as democratic socialism, but that democratic betsuni Jan 2023 #199

:) Have faith. The "NOT liberal Democrats" copied the deceit Hortensis Jan 2023 #204

Yeah, socialism is the answer Farmer-Rick Jan 2023 #30

Social Security, Medicare and unemployment insurance are not examples of "socialism" Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #38

Since when? Farmer-Rick Jan 2023 #66

Since always. Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #72

And pretending there are no socialist systems in the US Farmer-Rick Jan 2023 #158

Simple truth. Our ONLY/CLOSEST "socialized" system is the VA. Hortensis Jan 2023 #186

When ideologies on the extremes have no real accomplishments of their own--aside from Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #188

DU's for "politically liberal people" who want to elect more Democrats. Hortensis Jan 2023 #200

Social democracy is not socialism... brooklynite Jan 2023 #83

Actually I_UndergroundPanther Jan 2023 #227

An insurance policy, no different than health, home owners and life insurance. paleotn Jan 2023 #90

A hard pass for me as well. Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #112

Don't forget Central American workers' paradises, Hortensis Jan 2023 #190

You have to cite a country with a sustained and successful socialist... brush Jan 2023 #166

No I don't has to Farmer-Rick Jan 2023 #168

What I described is rudimentary capitalism... brush Jan 2023 #175

No, that's just traditional markets that have been around for thousands of years Farmer-Rick Jan 2023 #181

Come on, you tout socialism but still haven't cited... brush Jan 2023 #191

Yeah what always happens was the motto in the Soviet Union which was: EX500rider Jan 2023 #171

OK , now you're talking about Communism Farmer-Rick Jan 2023 #182

Communism is just a more extreme form of socialism EX500rider Jan 2023 #194

Not according to Karl Marx Farmer-Rick Jan 2023 #216

But capitalism is bad Dave says Jan 2023 #81

exactly; it's hardly "arbitrary" anarch Jan 2023 #87

Mao, Lenin, Stalin and Pol Pot would agree with you.... paleotn Jan 2023 #89

But I didn't argue from the extreme Dave says Jan 2023 #96

I'm relieved you have no objections BannonsLiver Jan 2023 #107

Markets over society malaise Jan 2023 #3

What is the actual solution, though? Happy Hoosier Jan 2023 #5

Less Capitalism, more Socialism AntivaxHunters Jan 2023 #6

That's a slogan, not a plan. Happy Hoosier Jan 2023 #11

No it's literally a plan AntivaxHunters Jan 2023 #13

Healthcare isn't "socialism." Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #39

Not so simple & NOT binary / either-or. Socialistic-capitalism is better distribution of wealth Bernardo de La Paz Jan 2023 #57

Socialism isn't about better distribution of resources. That is wholly inaccurate. Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #67

State-ownership of production is premised on better distribution of resources, but rarely efficient Bernardo de La Paz Jan 2023 #70

It never works out that way. Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #74

That's my point: that it never works out that way. Modern liberalism is socialistic-capitalism Bernardo de La Paz Jan 2023 #75

I think we are in general agreement Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #77

Socialist systems have failed and resulted in worse poverty . Look at Venezuela . JI7 Jan 2023 #23

What are the metrics of "failed"? Right in our own country... ck4829 Jan 2023 #24

The comparison that you cited was wnylib Jan 2023 #99

Re: FDR see my post #211 electric_blue68 Jan 2023 #212

What makes Nordic countries successful is their government intervention Farmer-Rick Jan 2023 #36

You are dead wrong. All these countries have advanced capitalist economies. Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #41

Nope, you make lots of claims but provide no facts Farmer-Rick Jan 2023 #49

What facts do you need to be convinced that the Nordic countries all have advanced capitalist Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #51

That their socialist systems Farmer-Rick Jan 2023 #151

+1 spot on! Emile Jan 2023 #155

Try looking up the definition of Socialism EX500rider Jan 2023 #114

Yes some of the wealth in those countries is owned Farmer-Rick Jan 2023 #154

Because we sanction such countries AntivaxHunters Jan 2023 #48

Repeat after me....ONE DOES NOT WORK WITHOUT THE OTHER. paleotn Jan 2023 #91

Repeat after me AntivaxHunters Jan 2023 #104

This meme is utterly dishonest. Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #125

Fire dept.s have zero to do with socialism EX500rider Jan 2023 #132

That would depend AntivaxHunters Jan 2023 #134

Since fire depts have zero to do with the means of production, no EX500rider Jan 2023 #172

Norway and Finland are socio-capitalist. Blended capitalism. Venezuela is command-and-control Bernardo de La Paz Jan 2023 #59

Look at Apalachia, Detroit, The Rio Grande Valley AntivaxHunters Jan 2023 #152

The US has a far higher population and people in those US areas live better than the poor in JI7 Jan 2023 #159

No they do not AntivaxHunters Jan 2023 #160

lol, if poor people lived better in Venezuela than in the US you would have people going to JI7 Jan 2023 #161

People move outside the US every day AntivaxHunters Jan 2023 #162

They aren't moving to Venezuela where you claim poor people live better JI7 Jan 2023 #164

As a % of population nowhere even close: EX500rider Jan 2023 #173

There is not too much capitalism; there is not enough socialism: basic income, healthcare, shelter. Bernardo de La Paz Jan 2023 #54

Less capitalism is still capitalism. paleotn Jan 2023 #73

Yes its still capitalism and it harms most of us. I_UndergroundPanther Jan 2023 #130

As extreme poverty declines worldwide with the spread of capitalism I'd say it does not EX500rider Jan 2023 #133

We're at historic income inequality in America AntivaxHunters Jan 2023 #153

Sounds easy to implement Dorian Gray Jan 2023 #147

Social Democracy/Democratic Socialism malaise Jan 2023 #8

I don't disagree with that, but... Happy Hoosier Jan 2023 #12

Read these books if you have trouble visualizing a real socialist society Farmer-Rick Jan 2023 #44

yes Locrian Jan 2023 #63

So true Farmer-Rick Jan 2023 #68

good sugestion will check it out - n/t Locrian Jan 2023 #106

Utopia had slaves Shrek Jan 2023 #143

Hilarious that "Utopia" is recommended! betsuni Jan 2023 #144

Not to mention the authoritarianism and the surveillance state Shrek Jan 2023 #149

Some people like the idea of authoritarianism/totalitarianism. Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #197

Yeah, that utopia would never be a real utopia Farmer-Rick Jan 2023 #150

LOL Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #198

Social democracy, like we have here in Sweden, is NOT democratic socialism. Celerity Jan 2023 #25

We can debate this malaise Jan 2023 #27

Manley's PNP government did take over a large chunk of the means of production. Celerity Jan 2023 #37

The utility companies were run by the government as was JOS (the urban bus company) malaise Jan 2023 #97

You are entirely correct to push back on the false conflation of Social Democracy Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #43

The policies and programmes they advocate for are not socialist, and those policies and Celerity Jan 2023 #78

I simply disagree. Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #79

Agree to disagree, and I am far from naive. Celerity Jan 2023 #108

Believe what you will. Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #109

you make my exact point for me, thank you Celerity Jan 2023 #115

We disagree about his intentions. Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #116

Again you make my point for me Celerity Jan 2023 #119

No, quite to the contrary. Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #120

These are not synonymous terms. Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #34

Social Democracies also don't have dictators n/t TexasBushwhacker Jan 2023 #56

Correct. Social Democracies have liberal political and economic values. Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #64

This message was self-deleted by its author malaise Jan 2023 #9

Agreed. See post 15. brush Jan 2023 #19

Move beyond the isms. Return to small, laterally-construct community groups who have real Magoo48 Jan 2023 #86

Actually, Marx was an idiot in the other direction. paleotn Jan 2023 #45

I agree💯% I_UndergroundPanther Jan 2023 #129

K&R 2naSalit Jan 2023 #4

Yeah, my cousin died of low education. padfun Jan 2023 #7

Wow AntivaxHunters Jan 2023 #10

Yeah I wondered how they figured out that one.. EX500rider Jan 2023 #174

That's not capitalism. It's racism and other bigotry JI7 Jan 2023 #14

No it's Capitalism AntivaxHunters Jan 2023 #16

You are correct malaise Jan 2023 #28

What malarky. Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #35

A little bit from column A, a little bit from column B ck4829 Jan 2023 #20

K&R ck4829 Jan 2023 #17

Notice that almost all the developed nations in the world Progressive dog Jan 2023 #18

This is incorrect AntivaxHunters Jan 2023 #50

The previous poster is not incorrect, and your meme does nothing to make a point to the contrary. Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #53

So everyone who's ever died in the last 200+ years.... paleotn Jan 2023 #92

Read it again AntivaxHunters Jan 2023 #102

Wars predates capitalism. EX500rider Jan 2023 #176

Complete and utter BS... Polybius Jan 2023 #95

That is so wrong. Progressive dog Jan 2023 #206

Wait until you hear about the all the First Nations people killed AntivaxHunters Jan 2023 #231

What kind of healthcare did they have 125 years ago? Progressive dog Jan 2023 #232

capitalist economic systems definitely kill fewer people in the developed world than anarch Jan 2023 #103

In spite of this "exploitation" Progressive dog Jan 2023 #207

K&R Emile Jan 2023 #21

The fact we have for profit healthcare mountain grammy Jan 2023 #26

Yep. We need to start calling the problems associated with this system "POLICY FAILURES" ck4829 Jan 2023 #32

+1000 mountain grammy Jan 2023 #61

Well said. This gets to the core of the problem. nt GoodRaisin Jan 2023 #118

The UK, the EU, Japan, Australia are all capitalist nations.... paleotn Jan 2023 #58

Agreed, if not THE worst problems, definitely near the top. We have so many problems today, Ziggysmom Jan 2023 #209

Does this include.... purr-rat beauty Jan 2023 #31

I think so ck4829 Jan 2023 #33

Kickin' Faux pas Jan 2023 #40

How about all the deaths due to opioid abuse? FakeNoose Jan 2023 #42

Somebody (The Sackler family and Purdue Pharma) made lots and lots of money though ck4829 Jan 2023 #46

Yes but the opioid victims weren't necessarily poor or uneducated FakeNoose Jan 2023 #47

Capitalism prevents more than 1 million deaths per year Bernardo de La Paz Jan 2023 #52

Yes! Very well said. paleotn Jan 2023 #60

+1 gulliver Jan 2023 #65

the goal of socialism is communism anarch Jan 2023 #98

Only if you are an all or nothing thinker Bernardo de La Paz Jan 2023 #101

I see it as a matter of intent anarch Jan 2023 #105

Good thing we don't have a system that is all-or-nothing. Bernardo de La Paz Jan 2023 #110

I can see this is a pointless conversation, but isn't Vietnam a communist country? anarch Jan 2023 #139

And you haven't? Suuuuure . . . nt Bernardo de La Paz Jan 2023 #145

... lapucelle Jan 2023 #205

I fear that the left does the same thing to capitalism... paleotn Jan 2023 #55

+1 betsuni Jan 2023 #138

The vast majority of Democrats are pro-Capitalism gulliver Jan 2023 #62

Among wealthy countries, the maternal mortality rate in the US is the worst ck4829 Jan 2023 #71

"When compared to 10 other cherry picked countries" EX500rider Jan 2023 #229

+1,000,000 Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #117

Can our capitalistic system deal with climate change? How can a system jalan48 Jan 2023 #85

do you mean, can it continue to generate profit? anarch Jan 2023 #94

Yes, I'm sure corporations will figure out a way to capitalize off of people's misery. jalan48 Jan 2023 #100

Sorry, not sorry, it's SOCIALISM and corporations have been using it for years RANDYWILDMAN Jan 2023 #93

yep... myohmy2 Jan 2023 #126

I fucking hate capitalism. I_UndergroundPanther Jan 2023 #127

And where is the non-capitalist utopia you'd rather be? EX500rider Jan 2023 #177

I dont know but I do know I_UndergroundPanther Jan 2023 #225

In the words of George Santos, Invisible People has "embellished" the conclusions of the study. mahatmakanejeeves Jan 2023 #137

Uhhh no AntivaxHunters Jan 2023 #156

The study did not say what Invisible People claimed it said. mahatmakanejeeves Jan 2023 #157

lol No, I'm just able to make a logical conclusion AntivaxHunters Jan 2023 #163

So make stuff up because the ends justify the means? Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #178

This is Both Sides Corrupt Myth: "Many politicians who could directly influence change are getting betsuni Jan 2023 #148

DURec leftstreet Jan 2023 #165

"hoarding more of the resourses" treestar Jan 2023 #167

And enables unprecedented prosperity for over 330,000,000 Americans. Hortensis Jan 2023 #179

+1 betsuni Jan 2023 #187

The official US poverty rate in 2021 was 11.6 percent, with 37.9 million people in poverty. Celerity Jan 2023 #215

:) Only curious if you look at little select numbers and don't Hortensis Jan 2023 #217

Your calling 40 plus million Americans living in poverty 'little select numbers' says a lot. Celerity Jan 2023 #218

Well, come on. Strawmanning and spinning people's words Hortensis Jan 2023 #219

Strawman? I'm one who's consistently posited since I joined DU that the Nordics are NOT socialist Celerity Jan 2023 #220

Claiming that those who self-describe as socialists and/or democratic socialists are confused about Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #221

False frame of what I said AND also ignores the evidence I have presented a multitude of times Celerity Jan 2023 #222

No, it is not a false frame. Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #223

This message was self-deleted by its author Celerity Jan 2023 #224

Yeah I get the feeling many American's really don't know what poverty is like in the 3erd World EX500rider Jan 2023 #230

We need a vaccine against the spread of disinformation. Just A Box Of Rain Jan 2023 #180

'invisiblepeople.tv' has only the best disinformation Bonx Jan 2023 #184

Capitalism saw Americans give birth to... Locutusofborg Jan 2023 #195

I believe this involved a different procedure. NT mahatmakanejeeves Jan 2023 #196

lol this fuckin thread WhiskeyGrinder Jan 2023 #208

FDR's Second Bill of Rights Or Economic Bill of Rights electric_blue68 Jan 2023 #211

Hartmann reviewed Cass Sunstein's 2004 book, "The Second Bill of Rights, FDR's Unfinished Revolution betsuni Jan 2023 #213

Interesting, I'll have to look for that! electric_blue68 Jan 2023 #214

Those who thrive on domination I_UndergroundPanther Jan 2023 #226

We're certainly going to have to fight for more of these things... electric_blue68 Jan 2023 #228