General Discussion

Ms. Toad

(38,878 posts)

9. No. You can't just instruct the jury as to what a reasonable person would have believed.

Tue Jul 18, 2023, 08:00 PM

Jul 2023

You can present evidence as to what he was told, what he read, etc. You an present evidence of what he communicated to others about his beliefs. But ultimately it is up to the jury to determine whether the evidence they are presented with proves that he (not a reasonable person) knew/believed. They are free to decide (should he choose to testify) that he is a bald-faced liar and that there is no way that he really believed he won.

But - you can't instruct the jury to find him guilty solely on what a reasonable person would have believed. They have to find, based on direct or circumstantial evidence, that he actually knew he lost.

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Can a DU legal expert explain to me... [View all] Pototan Jul 2023 OP

I gave the bank teller a note saying hand over all your cash, I didn't intend to doc03 Jul 2023 #1

If he knew he had lost, it's a different kind of crime. Fraud, for one thing. enough Jul 2023 #2

of course he knows he lost Skittles Jul 2023 #13

'willfully subjects any person in any State,' meaning WITH KNOWLEDGE. elleng Jul 2023 #3

My point is... Pototan Jul 2023 #6

Behavior often demonstrates knowledge, and I suspect 'instructions' state such; elleng Jul 2023 #8

Don't forget the two expensive studies he paid for showing no fraud. Nevilledog Jul 2023 #19

+1 spooky3 Jul 2023 #20

You would be wrong... brooklynite Jul 2023 #35

No. You can't just instruct the jury as to what a reasonable person would have believed. Ms. Toad Jul 2023 #9

No judge says "find him guilty"... Pototan Jul 2023 #15

The mens rea of the crime is ALWAYS subjective - what the accused actually knew. Ms. Toad Jul 2023 #18

Attempting to nfluence official proceeedings... Happy Hoosier Jul 2023 #44

Criminal offenses have elements which constitute the crime. rsdsharp Jul 2023 #4

The 62 cases are not really a good argument. former9thward Jul 2023 #5

Once you have exhausted all your legal avenues... Pototan Jul 2023 #11

Not true, according to Reuters. spooky3 Jul 2023 #14

What cases had a trial giving the evidence? former9thward Jul 2023 #21

Read the article and the one to which it links. Go to Marc Elias' site spooky3 Jul 2023 #22

I read the article. former9thward Jul 2023 #23

Did you read the linked WaPo article? Maybe you should spooky3 Jul 2023 #24

I am posting just like you. former9thward Jul 2023 #27

That's not true for all 62 cases. Fiendish Thingy Jul 2023 #28

Crimes generally include two kinds of elements Ms. Toad Jul 2023 #7

So, no election is ever over in America... Pototan Jul 2023 #12

So you weren't really looking for legal information? Ms. Toad Jul 2023 #16

Hey... MorbidButterflyTat Jul 2023 #29

I didn't say I disagree. I'm just asking... Pototan Jul 2023 #30

claim what they say. Ms. Toad Jul 2023 #34

If you follow the thread... Pototan Jul 2023 #31

... Faux pas Jul 2023 #10

This may help LetMyPeopleVote Jul 2023 #17

Inaccurate because the analogy is not appropriate. Ms. Toad Jul 2023 #25

His mental state was to deprive a Biden presidency. boston bean Jul 2023 #38

That is still consistent with a belief that he won. Ms. Toad Jul 2023 #39

It's clear he knew he lost. He was told. Ignoring a truth doesn't mean one boston bean Jul 2023 #40

If it is clear that he knew he lost, Ms. Toad Jul 2023 #41

They charged him. They feel they can prove it. boston bean Jul 2023 #42

So? Ms. Toad Jul 2023 #43

They have to show the liar is is liar. boston bean Jul 2023 #45

Not quite. Ms. Toad Jul 2023 #46

He lies that is evident. It will be all the evidence of is his lies that will make it easy to prove boston bean Jul 2023 #47

It doesn't need to be proven that he believed he lost Fiendish Thingy Jul 2023 #26

Proving he believed he lost is merely supplement evidence... brooklynite Jul 2023 #37

I don't think that EndlessWire Jul 2023 #32

Go ahead and up willful ignorance or blindness too; there are other terms for it. Hortensis Jul 2023 #33

Not a lawyer but malaise Jul 2023 #36