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Ms. Toad

(38,508 posts)

39. That is still consistent with a belief that he won.

Wed Jul 19, 2023, 01:12 PM

Jul 2023

He can believe he won - and want to deprive a Biden presidency. (The same is true for believing he lost - and wanting to deprive a Biden presidency.)

But only one of those is fraud - as an element of the crime, you have to prove that he knew what he was saying was false - but said it anyway to deprive a Biden presidence.

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Can a DU legal expert explain to me... [View all] Pototan Jul 2023 OP

I gave the bank teller a note saying hand over all your cash, I didn't intend to doc03 Jul 2023 #1

If he knew he had lost, it's a different kind of crime. Fraud, for one thing. enough Jul 2023 #2

of course he knows he lost Skittles Jul 2023 #13

'willfully subjects any person in any State,' meaning WITH KNOWLEDGE. elleng Jul 2023 #3

My point is... Pototan Jul 2023 #6

Behavior often demonstrates knowledge, and I suspect 'instructions' state such; elleng Jul 2023 #8

Don't forget the two expensive studies he paid for showing no fraud. Nevilledog Jul 2023 #19

+1 spooky3 Jul 2023 #20

You would be wrong... brooklynite Jul 2023 #35

No. You can't just instruct the jury as to what a reasonable person would have believed. Ms. Toad Jul 2023 #9

No judge says "find him guilty"... Pototan Jul 2023 #15

The mens rea of the crime is ALWAYS subjective - what the accused actually knew. Ms. Toad Jul 2023 #18

Attempting to nfluence official proceeedings... Happy Hoosier Jul 2023 #44

Criminal offenses have elements which constitute the crime. rsdsharp Jul 2023 #4

The 62 cases are not really a good argument. former9thward Jul 2023 #5

Once you have exhausted all your legal avenues... Pototan Jul 2023 #11

Not true, according to Reuters. spooky3 Jul 2023 #14

What cases had a trial giving the evidence? former9thward Jul 2023 #21

Read the article and the one to which it links. Go to Marc Elias' site spooky3 Jul 2023 #22

I read the article. former9thward Jul 2023 #23

Did you read the linked WaPo article? Maybe you should spooky3 Jul 2023 #24

I am posting just like you. former9thward Jul 2023 #27

That's not true for all 62 cases. Fiendish Thingy Jul 2023 #28

Crimes generally include two kinds of elements Ms. Toad Jul 2023 #7

So, no election is ever over in America... Pototan Jul 2023 #12

So you weren't really looking for legal information? Ms. Toad Jul 2023 #16

Hey... MorbidButterflyTat Jul 2023 #29

I didn't say I disagree. I'm just asking... Pototan Jul 2023 #30

claim what they say. Ms. Toad Jul 2023 #34

If you follow the thread... Pototan Jul 2023 #31

... Faux pas Jul 2023 #10

This may help LetMyPeopleVote Jul 2023 #17

Inaccurate because the analogy is not appropriate. Ms. Toad Jul 2023 #25

His mental state was to deprive a Biden presidency. boston bean Jul 2023 #38

That is still consistent with a belief that he won. Ms. Toad Jul 2023 #39

It's clear he knew he lost. He was told. Ignoring a truth doesn't mean one boston bean Jul 2023 #40

If it is clear that he knew he lost, Ms. Toad Jul 2023 #41

They charged him. They feel they can prove it. boston bean Jul 2023 #42

So? Ms. Toad Jul 2023 #43

They have to show the liar is is liar. boston bean Jul 2023 #45

Not quite. Ms. Toad Jul 2023 #46

He lies that is evident. It will be all the evidence of is his lies that will make it easy to prove boston bean Jul 2023 #47

It doesn't need to be proven that he believed he lost Fiendish Thingy Jul 2023 #26

Proving he believed he lost is merely supplement evidence... brooklynite Jul 2023 #37

I don't think that EndlessWire Jul 2023 #32

Go ahead and up willful ignorance or blindness too; there are other terms for it. Hortensis Jul 2023 #33

Not a lawyer but malaise Jul 2023 #36