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Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)

84. Let's try a different counterfactual here, shall we?

Wed Jan 18, 2012, 10:36 PM

Jan 2012

Was the Revolution worth winning?

If the rebellion of the colonists had been successfully crushed by the British, slavery would have been abolished long before the US got around to it (Britain outlawed slavery throughout the Empire in 1833); the US today would have a parliamentary government, on the Westminster model, and not the bastard elected monarchy where political compromises made in the 18th century make the business of government impossible that it has today; would have gained independence eventually anyway (as did Canada and Australia and New Zealand) and would probably have things like universal healthcare and so on that other former Dominions like the aforementioned ones have.

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This message was self-deleted by its author [View all] RainDog Jan 2012 OP

How would they hold public office if shot? 47of74 Jan 2012 #1

that was the part I was saying in frustration :) RainDog Jan 2012 #3

Great questions, I ask myself the same things just1voice Jan 2012 #2

I know there are lots of democrats in the south RainDog Jan 2012 #6

And what of the northern slave traders? unc70 Jan 2012 #73

Why should I have to immigrate? Fawke Em Jan 2012 #115

you don't have to RainDog Jan 2012 #117

You can take your regional bigotry against the South and leave anytime MicaelS Jan 2012 #122

thanks for your concern RainDog Jan 2012 #125

Those people who are stealing elections from the democrats WCGreen Jan 2012 #31

what about ""those democrats" who are allowing elections to be stolen by doing 0 about that? nt msongs Jan 2012 #38

Thank you for the link! It is a great article. Luminous Animal Jan 2012 #63

"Honest majority opinions" MicaelS Jan 2012 #4

Simply because the Founders disapproved of something doesn't make it wrong. white_wolf Jan 2012 #8

honest is what polls indicate are the opinions of the American people. RainDog Jan 2012 #11

gawdamn yeehaw Tuesday Afternoon Jan 2012 #5

Sometimes it seems it wasn't. However, thinking about it, Cleita Jan 2012 #7

Not to mention all the sane white people stuck in the South. white_wolf Jan 2012 #9

people could move RainDog Jan 2012 #13

not all whites are racists RainDog Jan 2012 #18

I know that but look at history. Cleita Jan 2012 #46

True RainDog Jan 2012 #53

Speaking of welfare. Newtie, the toadman, said Barak Obama has issued more food stamps than Cleita Jan 2012 #55

such a statement also ignores Paulson's bank bail out RainDog Jan 2012 #60

So you think all emilyg Jan 2012 #27

All? That's a pretty broad brush. Cleita Jan 2012 #51

After the blacks were freed we should have let the South go. Zalatix Jan 2012 #10

You would have a lot of immigrants coming from the South, then. white_wolf Jan 2012 #12

But those blacks could not buy property in many places unc70 Jan 2012 #75

They would have just reinstated slavery and Cleita Jan 2012 #52

I was wondering that last night. JDPriestly Jan 2012 #14

If President Lincoln had survived after the civil war I think we might have mucifer Jan 2012 #20

Good Point! JDPriestly Jan 2012 #111

Yes. That's what prompted this post RainDog Jan 2012 #21

You mean Confederate states like Indiana and New Hampshire? Hugabear Jan 2012 #69

yeah. If you read my OP, I note this isn't about a specific region RainDog Jan 2012 #72

Seemed pretty specific to me Hugabear Jan 2012 #74

since I've repeatedly said the post was in frustration b/c of the S.C. deal with Gringrich RainDog Jan 2012 #76

It would have been better to have won the War of 1812 and lost the Civil War FarCenter Jan 2012 #15

Look at post #16. The US of Canada and Jesusland lunatica Jan 2012 #17

Maybe the red states in the west/midwest should be returned to various Native Americans RainDog Jan 2012 #24

Then there's this map of how the US could look. lunatica Jan 2012 #16

I don't think that's representative RainDog Jan 2012 #23

Here's what one former Soviet guy predicted - I don't think he's right either RainDog Jan 2012 #30

Here's another version RainDog Jan 2012 #33

Close, but with a few differences kurt_cagle Jan 2012 #112

About 80% of Canadians are Christian. Nye Bevan Jan 2012 #50

Um, no laundry_queen Jan 2012 #86

77% is "about 80%". And Catholics are, indeed, Christians (nt) Nye Bevan Jan 2012 #88

people are not going to "get" what you're talking about RainDog Jan 2012 #108

My personal views on this are that the North wasn't hard enough on the South. white_wolf Jan 2012 #19

They should have executed Andrew Johnson, too RainDog Jan 2012 #22

They should have executed the vice president who remained loyal? RZM Jan 2012 #34

he was pro-slavery RainDog Jan 2012 #37

So that's your case for execution? RZM Jan 2012 #47

that was my frustration and hyperbole talking RainDog Jan 2012 #56

Well that's a different issue RZM Jan 2012 #61

some people argue the southern states issues are b/c the south RainDog Jan 2012 #70

Well RZM Jan 2012 #71

I'm out of my element on the Civil War, I'll admit RZM Jan 2012 #44

Nelson Mandela would disagree with vengeance Kennah Jan 2012 #54

For every action theres a reaction. William769 Jan 2012 #25

Yes krispos42 Jan 2012 #26

good argument RainDog Jan 2012 #45

Have you read Harry Turtledove's alternate history novels? Odin2005 Jan 2012 #68

Yup, and I have to admit he paints a realistic possibility krispos42 Jan 2012 #82

Harry Turtledove has a whole series of alternate history novels-- eridani Jan 2012 #118

Good question Prophet 451 Jan 2012 #28

I've seen that film RainDog Jan 2012 #41

I think shooting them would have precluded their holding public office cthulu2016 Jan 2012 #29

yeah, I already addressed this RainDog Jan 2012 #35

I share your frustration. Just thought it was funny. cthulu2016 Jan 2012 #39

agreed RainDog Jan 2012 #42

Perhaps we should have done forced integration in 1865 Kennah Jan 2012 #32

We pretty much did. Then we got tired of it and left cthulu2016 Jan 2012 #36

So I lose my home because I live in a Confederate State? SaintPete Jan 2012 #40

You could continue to live there RainDog Jan 2012 #43

so, "ghettoize" the southern states and dump the west on the "Indians" ??? WTF? Kali Jan 2012 #48

+10 emilyg Jan 2012 #58

No. I don't think you really get the point of the post RainDog Jan 2012 #59

by all means protect white privilege RainDog Jan 2012 #62

When the OP is about kicking out the states that have the majority of the black population JoeyT Jan 2012 #116

Fascinating kurt_cagle Jan 2012 #132

+ billions cordelia Jan 2012 #81

YES and since Washington and Jefferson owned hundreds of slaves their bodies should have been dug up Nye Bevan Jan 2012 #49

Not necessarily. But, it was worth keeping it to get rid of slavery. Tierra_y_Libertad Jan 2012 #57

I think of Jack Nicholson MFrohike Jan 2012 #64

Democrats began to lose the south with the election of FDR RainDog Jan 2012 #67

And? MFrohike Jan 2012 #78

I didn't say the south is the source of all evil RainDog Jan 2012 #79

Haha MFrohike Jan 2012 #80

Oh gawd, not this fucking shit again... Hugabear Jan 2012 #65

+1000 ellisonz Jan 2012 #91

Reconstruction was not radical enough. Odin2005 Jan 2012 #66

No. Hawkowl Jan 2012 #77

No Kellerfeller Jan 2012 #83

I think that was the big debate before the Civil War RZM Jan 2012 #89

I think you are right Kellerfeller Jan 2012 #92

Let's try a different counterfactual here, shall we? Spider Jerusalem Jan 2012 #84

Very interesting. Something to ponder. nt Honeycombe8 Jan 2012 #87

You never hear that one at all here RZM Jan 2012 #90

No, but you do hear a lot of "we'd be better off without the South" Spider Jerusalem Jan 2012 #93

I agree that it's bullshit RZM Jan 2012 #94

Nicely put. Thank you. cordelia Jan 2012 #95

well, we could ask about that one too RainDog Jan 2012 #97

Do you know which side Britain supported in the Civil War? RZM Jan 2012 #98

yes, I know. because of economic interests in the cotton industry RainDog Jan 2012 #99

That and great power maneuvering RZM Jan 2012 #103

except that's not what I said RainDog Jan 2012 #106

ha Kali Jan 2012 #130

Have you seen PBS' series "The Civil War" by Ken Burns? Honeycombe8 Jan 2012 #85

The Confederacy was not worth saving... YoungDemCA Jan 2012 #96

You suggesting a "Final Solution" should have occurred? lynne Jan 2012 #100

actually, no. that's not what I said RainDog Jan 2012 #105

The existence of both the CSA and the Union would be an impossibility. chrisa Jan 2012 #101

Oh lemme see. . . BigDemVoter Jan 2012 #102

wouldn't this topic be more suited for American History Tuesday Afternoon Jan 2012 #104

I think this is a far more complex question than a yes/no response... Fearless Jan 2012 #107

Literalism is also a problem RainDog Jan 2012 #110

Yes. It was worth it. Taverner Jan 2012 #109

The larger context is that, without the South, there'd be no Dukes of Hazard Bucky Jan 2012 #113

This message was self-deleted by its author Tuesday Afternoon Jan 2012 #120

Good plan. JoeyT Jan 2012 #114

I've mulled that question over for years. hifiguy Jan 2012 #119

The CSA would be easy to imagine; the USA would be harder Proud Public Servant Jan 2012 #121

This message was self-deleted by its author Tuesday Afternoon Jan 2012 #123

guess you sort of prove my point RainDog Jan 2012 #126

Post removed Post removed Jan 2012 #127

lol RainDog Jan 2012 #128

Post removed Post removed Jan 2012 #129

I suppose we all want to isolate ourselves from those we disagree with... LanternWaste Jan 2012 #124

not according to this information RainDog Jan 2012 #131