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In reply to the discussion: Wasn't sure whether to believe the Anonymous/Rove story,until the reaction telling us to shut up @it [View all]Coyotl
(15,262 posts)121. There are lots of important issues, and this is NOT one of them
At least not to the election integrity experts who understand all the intricacies of the issue.
an e-mail from Bev Harris:
OF DIVERSIONS, FABRICATIONS, AND RED HERRINGS -
My e-mail seems to have two recurring themes lately, each from the opposite side of the political spectrum. It goes like this:
"Hey, have you seen this? Anonymous claims to have hacked Karl Rove's intended election manipulation."
And this:
"Are you doing anything about the rampant voter fraud that put Obama in office?"
1. The alleged "hack" by Anonymous may or may not have been real, but if it was, a careful reading indicates that it was not a hack of voting machines, but more akin to the odious phone-jamming scheme used by a Republican operative in New Hampshire some years back. Whether you wear a blue or red political shirt, this kind of attack is nothing to brag about. It involves interfering with get out the vote efforts, and regardless of which side is working on get out the vote, obstructing such efforts is uncool.
There is no credible proof that this Anonymous hack even happened. If it did, it violated the principle of encouraging political participation. We have to be careful about stories such as this, because they can divert important work on election transparency into chasing phantoms.
2. The "rampant voter fraud" claim diverts attention from where wholesale tampering actually takes place. If you plan to rig an election, you do it as an inside job, not with alleged busloads of people casting multiple votes, and not with herds of voter impersonators fooling election judges.
You do it with absentees, you do it by manipulating who can vote, you do it by altering the voting machine counts, you do it by thwarting chain of custody. In other words, it's not the outsiders -- the voters -- where the focus needs to be. Let's keep our eye on the ball. Who handled the ballots? Who watched? Who programmed the machines? Was the list loaded into electronic pollbooks the real one? Was the count interrupted for some reason? Did any ballots disappear? Were people prevented from voting? How do we know that the ballots said to have been mailed in are the same ones that were counted, and how do we know they were put into the pool by real voters rather than an elections worker?
We need to step away from our favorite political candidates to deal with the underlying structural problem. Until we fix transparency problems, actual tampering -- considerably more damaging than anything Anonymous claimed to have done -- will happen over and over.
The real problem that we have to wrap our heads around, educate others about, and solve, is public right to see and authenticate the count.
Germany ruled that the public must be able to see and authenticate every essential step of the election, without need for special expertise, and that no after the fact procedure can be substituted for the right to authenticate the original count.
That is exactly the model we here in the USA need to work towards, but first, we have to help the public understand that public controls over our own elections are the very essence of self-government, and self-government is the basis for all democratic systems.
There are four things the public must be able to see and authenticate:
These are the fundamental issues, and we will restore these to the American public, once we properly identify them and demand these things, with no compromise and no wasting time on side issues, half-measures, or capitulation.
You may ask what you can do to help. I love that question. It's so much better than the passive "what is being done?"
Each major civil rights movement has several stages. We are now moving from the focus group stage, where we have been learning to craft the most accurate description of the problem to be solved, in the most persuasive terms, and into the distribution stage, where we are passing the message -- quite literally -- from person to person to build momentum to help tip the scales in legal and legislative efforts.
So that's what you can do: Learn to discuss election transparency in terms of basic right to self-govern, which is the principle that is the foundation for all democratic systems. To have self-governance, you have to have real, tangible, meaningful transparency.
Specifically, "The public must be able to see and authenticate each essential step of the election, without need for special expertise, and no after-the-fact procedure can be substituted for the right to authenticate the original.
My e-mail seems to have two recurring themes lately, each from the opposite side of the political spectrum. It goes like this:
"Hey, have you seen this? Anonymous claims to have hacked Karl Rove's intended election manipulation."
And this:
"Are you doing anything about the rampant voter fraud that put Obama in office?"
1. The alleged "hack" by Anonymous may or may not have been real, but if it was, a careful reading indicates that it was not a hack of voting machines, but more akin to the odious phone-jamming scheme used by a Republican operative in New Hampshire some years back. Whether you wear a blue or red political shirt, this kind of attack is nothing to brag about. It involves interfering with get out the vote efforts, and regardless of which side is working on get out the vote, obstructing such efforts is uncool.
There is no credible proof that this Anonymous hack even happened. If it did, it violated the principle of encouraging political participation. We have to be careful about stories such as this, because they can divert important work on election transparency into chasing phantoms.
2. The "rampant voter fraud" claim diverts attention from where wholesale tampering actually takes place. If you plan to rig an election, you do it as an inside job, not with alleged busloads of people casting multiple votes, and not with herds of voter impersonators fooling election judges.
You do it with absentees, you do it by manipulating who can vote, you do it by altering the voting machine counts, you do it by thwarting chain of custody. In other words, it's not the outsiders -- the voters -- where the focus needs to be. Let's keep our eye on the ball. Who handled the ballots? Who watched? Who programmed the machines? Was the list loaded into electronic pollbooks the real one? Was the count interrupted for some reason? Did any ballots disappear? Were people prevented from voting? How do we know that the ballots said to have been mailed in are the same ones that were counted, and how do we know they were put into the pool by real voters rather than an elections worker?
We need to step away from our favorite political candidates to deal with the underlying structural problem. Until we fix transparency problems, actual tampering -- considerably more damaging than anything Anonymous claimed to have done -- will happen over and over.
The real problem that we have to wrap our heads around, educate others about, and solve, is public right to see and authenticate the count.
Germany ruled that the public must be able to see and authenticate every essential step of the election, without need for special expertise, and that no after the fact procedure can be substituted for the right to authenticate the original count.
That is exactly the model we here in the USA need to work towards, but first, we have to help the public understand that public controls over our own elections are the very essence of self-government, and self-government is the basis for all democratic systems.
There are four things the public must be able to see and authenticate:
1) Who can vote (voter list)
2) Who did vote (poll list)
3) Counting of the vote
4) Chain of custody
These are the fundamental issues, and we will restore these to the American public, once we properly identify them and demand these things, with no compromise and no wasting time on side issues, half-measures, or capitulation.
You may ask what you can do to help. I love that question. It's so much better than the passive "what is being done?"
Each major civil rights movement has several stages. We are now moving from the focus group stage, where we have been learning to craft the most accurate description of the problem to be solved, in the most persuasive terms, and into the distribution stage, where we are passing the message -- quite literally -- from person to person to build momentum to help tip the scales in legal and legislative efforts.
So that's what you can do: Learn to discuss election transparency in terms of basic right to self-govern, which is the principle that is the foundation for all democratic systems. To have self-governance, you have to have real, tangible, meaningful transparency.
Specifically, "The public must be able to see and authenticate each essential step of the election, without need for special expertise, and no after-the-fact procedure can be substituted for the right to authenticate the original.
* * * * *
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Wasn't sure whether to believe the Anonymous/Rove story,until the reaction telling us to shut up @it [View all]
RepublicansRZombies
Nov 2012
OP
I'll concede that. It was a little unclear to me on first reading that he only meant KOS and not DU.
randome
Nov 2012
#21
Thanks... the loss of neurons in me head causes me (and others!) no end of grief.
Melinda
Nov 2012
#25
What's this? "Markos Moulitsas: Fraudsters, take your shit elsewhere"
RepublicansRZombies
Nov 2012
#27
Thanks for starting this thread. I've felt that there are some strange attitudes at the Kos site
byeya
Nov 2012
#109
Because they don't want DU to become known as the home of gullible mouth-breathers?
muriel_volestrangler
Nov 2012
#223
"Wasn't sure whether to believe the Anonymous/Rove story,until the reaction..."
ProSense
Nov 2012
#3
Cenk has explained his transformation. He has never, that I am aware of, written about his
sabrina 1
Nov 2012
#190
Again, you comparing people who are in no way comparable to kos, to someone who, hopefully
sabrina 1
Nov 2012
#235
I am not "comparing" anyone at all. What I am endeavoring to point out is that we are a large party.
MADem
Nov 2012
#287
The Big Tent isn't an argument, though--it's the operative philosophy of the party.
MADem
Nov 2012
#291
Downloading that update has no effect. Installing that update does, and is much more complex.
jeff47
Nov 2012
#284
No, you're the one implying exit polls are infallible. My grandmother took statistics. (nt)
jeff47
Nov 2012
#269
Yes, I've read them, and they appear to be disconected from reality
muriel_volestrangler
Nov 2012
#259
"If this story is true, all that happened was essentially a validation of Obama's victory. "
RepublicansRZombies
Nov 2012
#12
Who is tryiing to lie to you? There is no evidence that anything happened. True or false?
randome
Nov 2012
#13
I stand by my post. The lack of evidence is because the preps refuse to validate
Vincardog
Nov 2012
#126
open yet secure, these are not two diametrically opposed ideals. Open Source
Vincardog
Nov 2012
#155
If open source was the sole answer, we would not have massive identify theft today.
randome
Nov 2012
#158
Reliability is not the same problem as security. OS would guarantee the code WORKS
Vincardog
Nov 2012
#184
If it did go down as described, the evidence deleted itself the instant after the evnt.
Occulus
Nov 2012
#157
really? I think it's stupid for one poster to imagine they can read the mind of another
librechik
Nov 2012
#186
Name-calling? You're the one who compared another DUer to incompetent engineers
muriel_volestrangler
Nov 2012
#231
So you refer to someones analogy as "stupid" and you think this is going to help the conversation?
louslobbs
Nov 2012
#251
I agree with you. Evidence is important. Ignoring evidence is the status quo.
IdaBriggs
Nov 2012
#89
So you're now claiming that events in 2004 are evidence for what happened in 2012?
jeff47
Nov 2012
#257
How, exactly, would they counteract new voting machines with a recounted paper trail?
jeff47
Nov 2012
#252
The problem is previous holes have not been shown to be real election-day vulnerabilities
jeff47
Nov 2012
#283
Why don't you try learning something about how this new fangled technology stuff werks!
phleshdef
Nov 2012
#26
If you think there is something there, then you don't know shit and you are lying about IT exp.
phleshdef
Nov 2012
#125
Bwahhahahah "boob". I'm not self important, I just KNOW what I'm talking about.
phleshdef
Nov 2012
#188
Please go read about what ORCA actually was. It wasn't anything fancy at all.
phleshdef
Nov 2012
#213
The (fake) Anonymous letter attempted to draw a connection between ORCA and vote rigging.
phleshdef
Nov 2012
#219
I'm not afraid to talk of conspiracies and I don't deny that conspiracies have and do occur.
phleshdef
Nov 2012
#224
well said! "the simple fact that every possible angle to suppress votes was used by Karl Rove etc"
RepublicansRZombies
Nov 2012
#52
I do have to admit, there is a HUGE difference between Fraudsters and Birthers
RomneyLies
Nov 2012
#40
How is your embrace of this conspiracy theory different than creationism or birtherism? nt
geek tragedy
Nov 2012
#133
Dean Chambers, a polling blogger, is alleging voter fraud in 4 states with Republican governors.
geek tragedy
Nov 2012
#201
Code can delete itself immediately after execution, and it can do so without a trace.
Occulus
Nov 2012
#164
So you're supporting a 'maybe' with a 'can'. Like adding zeros together and expecting > 0.
randome
Nov 2012
#165
I was sent by Central Corporate Command (CCC) to shut down discussion!
alcibiades_mystery
Nov 2012
#36
So one random jackass claims they hacked Rove's hack, and it's a big story and coverup?
snooper2
Nov 2012
#39
Ah yes, those who discount CT bullshit as CT bullshit are OBVIOUSLY IN ON THE CONSPIRACY!!!
RomneyLies
Nov 2012
#46
...and the utter absence of evidence only proves the conspiracy is working.
regnaD kciN
Nov 2012
#202
the same religious fervor that told us to shut up about social security-just wait and see
RepublicansRZombies
Nov 2012
#60
I particularly find amusing the inclusion of swearing. Lighten up, Francises!
WinkyDink
Nov 2012
#68
In my mind, the reaction you are describing is only evidence that some people don't want to talk
ZombieHorde
Nov 2012
#69
If they don't want to talk about it, why do they start threads about it?
RepublicansRZombies
Nov 2012
#72
that is just the thing that has me wonder, why do they care so much if it is so discredited?
RepublicansRZombies
Nov 2012
#85
ONLY important issue is adressing the FACT that the machines are hackable.
RepublicansRZombies
Nov 2012
#80
"verifiable chain of security" yes, also very important! Kathy Nickolaus taught us that one.
RepublicansRZombies
Nov 2012
#134
Meanwhile, when an unidentified person posts some bullshit, everyone asks for seconds
Coyotl
Nov 2012
#182
Why are you so 'concerned' about this? It was, up to the point where we started seeing this
sabrina 1
Nov 2012
#191
I'll make a note somewhere that you are the expert in this matter, the all knowing one.
Coyotl
Nov 2012
#263
Yes. It would be lovely if 2012 caused Republicans to send these stupid machines to landfill.
aquart
Nov 2012
#149
Well it sure got all the authoritarian third way and right wingers all upset.
sabrina 1
Nov 2012
#242
So you'll draw a conclusion based simply on what bloggers are saying?
TroglodyteScholar
Nov 2012
#82
Kos takes care of that all by himself, to free thinking liberals asking questions
RepublicansRZombies
Nov 2012
#104
Thus far, all we have is Anonymous' assertion. Where's the evidence that
coalition_unwilling
Nov 2012
#87
Wasn't sure whether to believe the Moon Landing Hoax story,until the reaction telling us to shut up
muriel_volestrangler
Nov 2012
#95
There are many things we will NEVER know. In a poker game, it's best to bluff than
valerief
Nov 2012
#98
Manditory audits of recorded votes vs paper votes is a must. Not sure if Ohio has that.
yourout
Nov 2012
#127
I doubt script kiddies living in their parents' basements can hack election machines.
Odin2005
Nov 2012
#107
Yes, any time someone makes fun of an assertion, that means its TRUE!
Warren DeMontague
Nov 2012
#108
I can always tell that people are UP to something, when a group of people send a fake video to self
Coyotl
Nov 2012
#123
Many limited hangout 'Democrats' (like Kos who was Republican/CIA?) are misleading the party.
AlbertCat
Nov 2012
#130
" Who on this board is delusional enough to try and pretend that conspiracy is not a substantial..."
randome
Nov 2012
#207
Well, gee, that's a competing theory to the one that Anonymous is a collaboration between
MADem
Nov 2012
#216