General Discussion

ljm2002

(10,751 posts)

255. "The tabulators may or may not be on the Internet"...

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 06:38 PM

Nov 2012

...okay, so you admit that vote counting systems may have been on the Internet. Since our system works by COUNTING THE VOTES, it would seem to be very important to CONTROL THE SYSTEMS THAT COUNT THE VOTE. But if these systems are ON THE INTERNET then they can indeed be subject to hacking and changing results.

As to whether local precincts "notice" discrepancies or not, I would not want to pin my hopes on whether each precinct pays attention to the vote counts before and after they have been rerouted.

I brought up 2004 because there were claims back then that the machines were not on the Internet -- until it was shown that many of them were indeed accessible via Internet. Sorry if that is inconvenient. Given the similarities with the timing in this vote as compared to that one, it seemed relevant to this discussion.

There has been no change in subject, it was just a question. So now you have admitted that indeed the Internet "may" be a factor this year as well. Thank you for reinforcing my point.

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Wasn't sure whether to believe the Anonymous/Rove story,until the reaction telling us to shut up @it [View all] RepublicansRZombies Nov 2012 OP

Really? Insulting fellow DUers is how you want to go? randome Nov 2012 #1

Yep, we should all shut up and get back to slurping vomit.. Fumesucker Nov 2012 #11

I don't see an insult toward Duers at all... help me out, please? Melinda Nov 2012 #17

I'll concede that. It was a little unclear to me on first reading that he only meant KOS and not DU. randome Nov 2012 #21

Thanks... the loss of neurons in me head causes me (and others!) no end of grief. Melinda Nov 2012 #25

Why, thank you. Don't mind if I do! randome Nov 2012 #28

Them cookies look GOOD, yo. leeroysphitz Nov 2012 #93

What's this? "Markos Moulitsas: Fraudsters, take your shit elsewhere" RepublicansRZombies Nov 2012 #27

I had not been in that thread. I wasn't even sure what it was about. randome Nov 2012 #42

Thanks for starting this thread. I've felt that there are some strange attitudes at the Kos site byeya Nov 2012 #109

Because they don't want DU to become known as the home of gullible mouth-breathers? muriel_volestrangler Nov 2012 #223

Because truthers degrade Kos' brand, and so are not welcome . . . MrModerate Nov 2012 #279

I have no idea whether the hacking is true or not. Bonhomme Richard Nov 2012 #2

"Wasn't sure whether to believe the Anonymous/Rove story,until the reaction..." ProSense Nov 2012 #3

If you have been studying the net for as long as I have RepublicansRZombies Nov 2012 #7

"People are sent, and they will not let the topic go" ProSense Nov 2012 #10

And Here You Are. bahrbearian Nov 2012 #59

Odd, someone else reinforces the point. A Simple Game Nov 2012 #113

Touche! Capt. Obvious Nov 2012 #120

Yeah, here I am. ProSense Nov 2012 #151

Yeah, here she is. Thank Goodness. nm Cha Nov 2012 #265

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! RomneyLies Nov 2012 #33

Contrary evidence is POSITIVE evidence! Scootaloo Nov 2012 #129

They crack me up too. So do 'former Republicans' like Kos sabrina 1 Nov 2012 #146

Cenk is a "former Republican" ProSense Nov 2012 #154

Ed Schultz is a former Republican. randome Nov 2012 #156

Cenk has explained his transformation. He has never, that I am aware of, written about his sabrina 1 Nov 2012 #190

So's Howard Dean...and Hillary Clinton! MADem Nov 2012 #217

Yes they came to their senses but kos never did. sabrina 1 Nov 2012 #225

You're not seriously suggesting that kos is a Republican? MADem Nov 2012 #230

Again, you comparing people who are in no way comparable to kos, to someone who, hopefully sabrina 1 Nov 2012 #235

I am not "comparing" anyone at all. What I am endeavoring to point out is that we are a large party. MADem Nov 2012 #287

The Big Tent argument always seems to ignore that what that meant sabrina 1 Nov 2012 #288

The Big Tent isn't an argument, though--it's the operative philosophy of the party. MADem Nov 2012 #291

It's simple. I don't like Republicans in the Big Tent. sabrina 1 Nov 2012 #293

Well, you're entitled to your opinion, but I don't think your POV holds sway. MADem Nov 2012 #294

more on this .. Cass Sunstein is disturbed by all the "extremism" kilgore_trout Dec 2012 #296

actually this link is better kilgore_trout Dec 2012 #297

Welcome to DU! hrmjustin Dec 2012 #299

I Agree SoCalMusicLover Nov 2012 #4

Here's a good point: ProSense Nov 2012 #6

ORCA HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT! Atman Nov 2012 #53

Then why did it fail? jeff47 Nov 2012 #65

Software fails all the time. lalalu Nov 2012 #131

Something as trivial as "change O to R" isn't gonna fail. (nt) jeff47 Nov 2012 #260

Sure it can. Just like something as trivial as lalalu Nov 2012 #274

Downloading that update has no effect. Installing that update does, and is much more complex. jeff47 Nov 2012 #284

"All the other times they've been wrong"??? aquart Nov 2012 #139

Exit polling isn't used like you think it is. jeff47 Nov 2012 #261

Trying to teach your grandmother to suck eggs? aquart Nov 2012 #268

No, you're the one implying exit polls are infallible. My grandmother took statistics. (nt) jeff47 Nov 2012 #269

Except that the (alleged) Anonymous statement claimed... regnaD kciN Nov 2012 #160

I AGREE! I am not arguing FOR Anonymous! Atman Nov 2012 #162

No-one suspects it, and that is suspicious? muriel_volestrangler Nov 2012 #226

I know exactly as much as you do about the software patches. Atman Nov 2012 #236

You admit you don't know anything was amiss muriel_volestrangler Nov 2012 #239

Have even read my posts? It sure doesn't seem so. Atman Nov 2012 #248

Yes, I've read them, and they appear to be disconected from reality muriel_volestrangler Nov 2012 #259

"If this story is true, all that happened was essentially a validation of Obama's victory. " RepublicansRZombies Nov 2012 #12

Who is tryiing to lie to you? There is no evidence that anything happened. True or false? randome Nov 2012 #13

False bigmonkey Nov 2012 #51

The "evidence" we need is from the Manufacturers of the BBV. Prove they are Vincardog Nov 2012 #112

Without evidence, there is nothing to prove or disprove. randome Nov 2012 #124

I stand by my post. The lack of evidence is because the preps refuse to validate Vincardog Nov 2012 #126

Electronic voting is like the Internet itself, IMO. randome Nov 2012 #142

open yet secure, these are not two diametrically opposed ideals. Open Source Vincardog Nov 2012 #155

If open source was the sole answer, we would not have massive identify theft today. randome Nov 2012 #158

And anything that is cloaked in secrecy is open to be abused. Atman Nov 2012 #168

I'm not opposing anything! randome Nov 2012 #173

The receipt is POINTLESS. Atman Nov 2012 #189

I said the printed ballot would be dropped into a locked box. randome Nov 2012 #193

But what triggers a re-count? Atman Nov 2012 #227

Good post dreamnightwind Nov 2012 #280

Reliability is not the same problem as security. OS would guarantee the code WORKS Vincardog Nov 2012 #184

Whatever code they're using now apparently works and was not hacked. randome Nov 2012 #187

You absolutely do not know that. Atman Nov 2012 #233

+1 aquart Nov 2012 #140

Anon timeline? JaneyVee Nov 2012 #5

Shut up about what? Javaman Nov 2012 #8

It's not even 'anonymous' it's some wanker in a mask. geek tragedy Nov 2012 #37

Nah, it Was Karl Rove in the Fox green room with the Guy Fawkes mask RomneyLies Nov 2012 #56

If it did go down as described, the evidence deleted itself the instant after the evnt. Occulus Nov 2012 #157

+1000 Atman Nov 2012 #170

association is not evidence. Javaman Nov 2012 #295

yes, very suggestive of fire being covered up when the smoke is scoffed at. librechik Nov 2012 #9

Except there's no smoke. There's someone saying "Look! Smoke!" jeff47 Nov 2012 #62

I'm glad you weren't working on the Challenger mission librechik Nov 2012 #128

That's a really stupid analogy... regnaD kciN Nov 2012 #181

really? I think it's stupid for one poster to imagine they can read the mind of another librechik Nov 2012 #186

Name-calling? You're the one who compared another DUer to incompetent engineers muriel_volestrangler Nov 2012 #231

It was not the engineers who decided to send Challenger up Demeter Nov 2012 #272

So you refer to someones analogy as "stupid" and you think this is going to help the conversation? louslobbs Nov 2012 #251

Nothing has been pointed out. jeff47 Nov 2012 #250

I find the theory plausible. I value Election Integrity above Party. IdaBriggs Nov 2012 #14

The difference is evidence. jeff47 Nov 2012 #73

I agree with you. Evidence is important. Ignoring evidence is the status quo. IdaBriggs Nov 2012 #89

+1000000 for bringing up Andy and his work- Thank you RepublicansRZombies Nov 2012 #94

Exactly. Thank you. aquart Nov 2012 #143

BOOM! Atman Nov 2012 #175

So you're now claiming that events in 2004 are evidence for what happened in 2012? jeff47 Nov 2012 #257

What did Rachael Maddow recently say? IdaBriggs Nov 2012 #275

The more they scream the more I want it discussed Kingofalldems Nov 2012 #15

KOS can do what he wants at his site Kingofalldems Nov 2012 #16

Lots of shit stirring ProSense Nov 2012 #18

You Better Believe It!!!! nt msanthrope Nov 2012 #159

RepublicansRZombies has been here about 90 days, not 30 (nt) muriel_volestrangler Nov 2012 #232

K&R n/t Z_I_Peevey Nov 2012 #19

LOL. "won't let anyone talk about 9/11 either" cthulu2016 Nov 2012 #20

When they talk about Benghazi they sound crazy and lose credibility. Hamlette Nov 2012 #22

No rumor is true until it is officially denied Demeter Nov 2012 #23

Then anonymous is evil. jeff47 Nov 2012 #75

On the other hand Demeter Nov 2012 #101

How, exactly, would they counteract new voting machines with a recounted paper trail? jeff47 Nov 2012 #252

You also need a government of integrity to do the hole closing Demeter Nov 2012 #273

The problem is previous holes have not been shown to be real election-day vulnerabilities jeff47 Nov 2012 #283

When does the paper trail get examined? dreamnightwind Nov 2012 #281

There's a problem of scale jeff47 Nov 2012 #282

Scaling up a counting crew would be the least of our worries dreamnightwind Nov 2012 #286

Post removed Post removed Nov 2012 #24

Why don't you try learning something about how this new fangled technology stuff werks! phleshdef Nov 2012 #26

"there are many of us with years of IT experience" RepublicansRZombies Nov 2012 #38

Its not a tactic. Its the last 15 years of my fucking life. phleshdef Nov 2012 #47

An anonymous email versus the contextual explanations of your fellow DUers. randome Nov 2012 #48

Actually, the experts explained it to you in plenty of detail. jeff47 Nov 2012 #70

So were those machines not connected to the internet... ljm2002 Nov 2012 #100

+10000000 RepublicansRZombies Nov 2012 #136

It depends on the system. Remember, the conspiracy theory is OH, FL and VA. jeff47 Nov 2012 #254

"The tabulators may or may not be on the Internet"... ljm2002 Nov 2012 #255

No, you need to actually read what I'm saying. jeff47 Nov 2012 #271

And there are many of us with years of IT experience... ljm2002 Nov 2012 #99

If you think there is something there, then you don't know shit and you are lying about IT exp. phleshdef Nov 2012 #125

Hackers use all sorts of terminology... ljm2002 Nov 2012 #137

Oh horse shit. Its not a case of "hackers using all sorts of terminology". phleshdef Nov 2012 #148

Unless, of course, they intentionally misrepresented their tactics, Occulus Nov 2012 #161

I'm so glad that I've already gone bald. phleshdef Nov 2012 #176

You are obviously a self-important boob... ljm2002 Nov 2012 #185

Bwahhahahah "boob". I'm not self important, I just KNOW what I'm talking about. phleshdef Nov 2012 #188

It is obvious that your reading comprehension needs some work... ljm2002 Nov 2012 #192

I'm dismissing the purported Anonymous letter out of hand. phleshdef Nov 2012 #198

Regarding ORCA... ljm2002 Nov 2012 #206

Please go read about what ORCA actually was. It wasn't anything fancy at all. phleshdef Nov 2012 #213

Again with the lack of reading comprehension... ljm2002 Nov 2012 #218

The (fake) Anonymous letter attempted to draw a connection between ORCA and vote rigging. phleshdef Nov 2012 #219

People who are afraid of any talk of conspiracies... ljm2002 Nov 2012 #222

I'm not afraid to talk of conspiracies and I don't deny that conspiracies have and do occur. phleshdef Nov 2012 #224

So did you notice the sh*t Husted was pulling this time? ljm2002 Nov 2012 #229

Of course I noticed it. But he wasn't nearly as successful as Blackwell. phleshdef Nov 2012 #238

"This kind of shit makes us look like flat earthers"... ljm2002 Nov 2012 #241

I prefer critical thinking to "feelings" when it comes to a claim cali Nov 2012 #29

Then please explain... regnaD kciN Nov 2012 #30

It would have been 314 without Ohio, no? nt geek tragedy Nov 2012 #35

Basic logic Pbs1914 Nov 2012 #31

well said! "the simple fact that every possible angle to suppress votes was used by Karl Rove etc" RepublicansRZombies Nov 2012 #52

One can admit the possibility without swallowing this hypothesis... regnaD kciN Nov 2012 #194

Begs the question: Why WOULDN'T they? joeunderdog Nov 2012 #277

yeah and duh marions ghost Nov 2012 #66

^== This. NT IdaBriggs Nov 2012 #92

Wrong Springslips Nov 2012 #240

Kos is CIA? naaman fletcher Nov 2012 #32

Kos himself says he applied to join the CIA but then changed his mind starroute Nov 2012 #141

thanks. nt naaman fletcher Nov 2012 #163

That's how the Birthers reacted when their similarly unsubstantiated geek tragedy Nov 2012 #34

I do have to admit, there is a HUGE difference between Fraudsters and Birthers RomneyLies Nov 2012 #40

Amazing how some people believe something just because they see it geek tragedy Nov 2012 #45

Or disbelieve something.. 99Forever Nov 2012 #55

I disbelieve it becaues there is no reason to believe it. geek tragedy Nov 2012 #81

Your opinion... 99Forever Nov 2012 #102

You do know that's the same thing Creationists say, right? randome Nov 2012 #105

More strawman bullshit from you? 99Forever Nov 2012 #110

How is your embrace of this conspiracy theory different than creationism or birtherism? nt geek tragedy Nov 2012 #133

How is ... 99Forever Nov 2012 #174

Dean Chambers, a polling blogger, is alleging voter fraud in 4 states with Republican governors. geek tragedy Nov 2012 #201

Did I ask you to? 99Forever Nov 2012 #212

No, the lack of evidence is a FACT. geek tragedy Nov 2012 #132

Code can delete itself immediately after execution, and it can do so without a trace. Occulus Nov 2012 #164

So you're supporting a 'maybe' with a 'can'. Like adding zeros together and expecting > 0. randome Nov 2012 #165

For someone that... 99Forever Nov 2012 #178

I have NO evidence that anything happened on election night. Do you? randome Nov 2012 #180

So... 99Forever Nov 2012 #200

Touchy, isn't he? randome Nov 2012 #204

And, totally unimpressive. nm Cha Nov 2012 #267

Wrong. 99Forever Nov 2012 #172

Please point to one fact proving that geek tragedy Nov 2012 #197

Please point to one fact proving that 99Forever Nov 2012 #215

Logical fallacy. Those making a claim are the ones who bear geek tragedy Nov 2012 #249

A lot of words, just to say... 99Forever Nov 2012 #270

I was sent by Central Corporate Command (CCC) to shut down discussion! alcibiades_mystery Nov 2012 #36

hee hee RomneyLies Nov 2012 #43

+1000000... regnaD kciN Nov 2012 #199

So one random jackass claims they hacked Rove's hack, and it's a big story and coverup? snooper2 Nov 2012 #39

When you say 'scoop'... randome Nov 2012 #44

No, we don't need to see your "scoop." MineralMan Nov 2012 #144

Yep you got it madokie Nov 2012 #41

Ah yes, those who discount CT bullshit as CT bullshit are OBVIOUSLY IN ON THE CONSPIRACY!!! RomneyLies Nov 2012 #46

Why won't the government tell us the truth? MineralMan Nov 2012 #145

Don't forget Rove The Almighty has not yet weighed in on this issue. randome Nov 2012 #147

...and the utter absence of evidence only proves the conspiracy is working. regnaD kciN Nov 2012 #202

"You know you're over the target when you start taking flack." Hugin Nov 2012 #49

Anyone who has lived through the last 12 years in Ohio knows.... peace13 Nov 2012 #50

Thank you. Z_I_Peevey Nov 2012 #54

the same religious fervor that told us to shut up about social security-just wait and see RepublicansRZombies Nov 2012 #60

Yes, I bet kos was among that contingency also. He is so predictable. sabrina 1 Nov 2012 #244

Exactly. Well said. nt truckin Nov 2012 #91

Meh, that's kind of immature isn't it? treestar Nov 2012 #57

It is a Fact that Karl Rove is a Shitty Deal!!! mstinamotorcity2 Nov 2012 #58

So the moon landing was fake? jeff47 Nov 2012 #61

Agreed. People like Debbie Wasserman-Schultz dissmissing (or laughing off) Phx_Dem Nov 2012 #63

+1000 n/t Z_I_Peevey Nov 2012 #74

This is making the Democrats look crazy gravity Nov 2012 #64

NO, this is people looking crazy and saying they are Dems Coyotl Nov 2012 #115

Bingo! regnaD kciN Nov 2012 #205

I have thought that as well... Myrina Nov 2012 #67

You forgot a third possibility. randome Nov 2012 #76

Same, predictable group, too. woo me with science Nov 2012 #234

I particularly find amusing the inclusion of swearing. Lighten up, Francises! WinkyDink Nov 2012 #68

In my mind, the reaction you are describing is only evidence that some people don't want to talk ZombieHorde Nov 2012 #69

If they don't want to talk about it, why do they start threads about it? RepublicansRZombies Nov 2012 #72

Good point. I should have said they don't want to credit the topic. nt ZombieHorde Nov 2012 #83

that is just the thing that has me wonder, why do they care so much if it is so discredited? RepublicansRZombies Nov 2012 #85

We need to be saved from the pending congelation of a falsehood Coyotl Nov 2012 #117

It's possible they did. I don't know. xfundy Nov 2012 #71

ONLY important issue is adressing the FACT that the machines are hackable. RepublicansRZombies Nov 2012 #80

Paper ballots with a verifiable chain of security byeya Nov 2012 #103

"verifiable chain of security" yes, also very important! Kathy Nickolaus taught us that one. RepublicansRZombies Nov 2012 #134

There are lots of important issues, and this is NOT one of them Coyotl Nov 2012 #121

Quoting Bev Harris may not get you any points here at DU starroute Nov 2012 #152

Quoting Bev Harris will get your entire argument summarily dismissed Occulus Nov 2012 #167

Meanwhile, when an unidentified person posts some bullshit, everyone asks for seconds Coyotl Nov 2012 #182

Why are you so 'concerned' about this? It was, up to the point where we started seeing this sabrina 1 Nov 2012 #191

Bev Harris is an authority on thes matters, like her personally or not Coyotl Nov 2012 #177

No, Bev Harris is a known grifter and fraud Occulus Nov 2012 #262

I'll make a note somewhere that you are the expert in this matter, the all knowing one. Coyotl Nov 2012 #263

I don't like her--she lied about Andy, she'll lie about anything. IMO. nt MADem Nov 2012 #292

Yes. It would be lovely if 2012 caused Republicans to send these stupid machines to landfill. aquart Nov 2012 #149

Meh, not really. Maybe they're just sick of talking about it. Taverner Nov 2012 #77

The level of effort to discredit a theory does make you think twice.... marions ghost Nov 2012 #78

Theories start with a modicum of evidence or facts. randome Nov 2012 #79

Well it sure got all the authoritarian third way and right wingers all upset. sabrina 1 Nov 2012 #242

yes, that is what is so weird about it RepublicansRZombies Nov 2012 #88

So you'll draw a conclusion based simply on what bloggers are saying? TroglodyteScholar Nov 2012 #82

Or YOU could be a Republican/CIA here to discredit Kos Matariki Nov 2012 #84

Kos takes care of that all by himself, to free thinking liberals asking questions RepublicansRZombies Nov 2012 #104

While I don't think this particular reaction proves anything... ljm2002 Nov 2012 #86

Thus far, all we have is Anonymous' assertion. Where's the evidence that coalition_unwilling Nov 2012 #87

I personally don't believe a bunch of hackers did anything in this election. Gore1FL Nov 2012 #90

Wasn't sure whether to believe the Moon Landing Hoax story,until the reaction telling us to shut up muriel_volestrangler Nov 2012 #95

Brilliant! regnaD kciN Nov 2012 #208

+1000! Turn CO Blue Nov 2012 #258

I kicked Kos out of my line up long ago. n/t 2pooped2pop Nov 2012 #96

if you can't prove ejbr Nov 2012 #97

There are many things we will NEVER know. In a poker game, it's best to bluff than valerief Nov 2012 #98

I don't believe the Ohio Diebold machines can be hacked. JohnnyRingo Nov 2012 #106

Manditory audits of recorded votes vs paper votes is a must. Not sure if Ohio has that. yourout Nov 2012 #127

Paper ballots are logged and certified at the precinct.... JohnnyRingo Nov 2012 #183

I doubt script kiddies living in their parents' basements can hack election machines. Odin2005 Nov 2012 #107

Anonymous is not just script kiddies living in their parents' basements starroute Nov 2012 #166

Yes, any time someone makes fun of an assertion, that means its TRUE! Warren DeMontague Nov 2012 #108

The idea that it was possible for the vote to be hacked Ford_Prefect Nov 2012 #111

"The best 'argument' the people who tell us to shut up about it have ..." Denzil_DC Nov 2012 #114

"Wishful thinking" seems to be the key here... regnaD kciN Nov 2012 #211

If Anonymous had proof on Rove they would spill it. iandhr Nov 2012 #116

I don't put anything past them.... NRaleighLiberal Nov 2012 #118

2012 ELECTION WAS AN INSIDE JOB!!! Capt. Obvious Nov 2012 #119

There really is no evidence of this CT. Jennicut Nov 2012 #122

I can always tell that people are UP to something, when a group of people send a fake video to self Coyotl Nov 2012 #123

Ooh, that picture may come in so handy muriel_volestrangler Nov 2012 #237

Many limited hangout 'Democrats' (like Kos who was Republican/CIA?) are misleading the party. AlbertCat Nov 2012 #130

Wow, crazy is really taking off! n/t ProSense Nov 2012 #135

That's a pretty low evidentiary bar ya got there. n/t cherokeeprogressive Nov 2012 #138

All that is asked for is evidence, which has yet to be presented. NYC Liberal Nov 2012 #150

"'Rove acted like an idiot on Fox News'" is NOT evidence." ProSense Nov 2012 #153

LOL, if Rove acting like an idiot is evidence of a conspiracy, NYC Liberal Nov 2012 #169

So far, this thread has become comic gold... regnaD kciN Nov 2012 #214

Sigh... gcomeau Nov 2012 #171

Welcome to Freep Bizzaro World! NightOwwl Nov 2012 #179

Here's my take, for what's it's worth rightsideout Nov 2012 #195

CT deniers crack me up. Waiting For Everyman Nov 2012 #196

" Who on this board is delusional enough to try and pretend that conspiracy is not a substantial..." randome Nov 2012 #207

What a ridiculous comment ProSense Nov 2012 #209

Really? I thought it was one of my better ones. Waiting For Everyman Nov 2012 #220

Yep. Z_I_Peevey Nov 2012 #247

This whole thread backs up the original post. Eyes of the World Nov 2012 #203

Here's an interesting tidbit from Legal Schnauzer starroute Nov 2012 #210

Well, gee, that's a competing theory to the one that Anonymous is a collaboration between MADem Nov 2012 #216

Anonymous aside... peace13 Nov 2012 #221

I fear voter intimidation more than hackery, frankly. MADem Nov 2012 #228

Are you aware that Ohio votes were run through the RNC computers in 2004... peace13 Nov 2012 #246

You twisted that all wrong. Coyotl Nov 2012 #264

I beg to differ. peace13 Nov 2012 #285

And Simplicity is simplicity marions ghost Nov 2012 #256

And it doesn't mean that Anonymous isn't run by the CIA, either. MADem Nov 2012 #276

How I wish I could unrec intaglio Nov 2012 #243

The old 'CT' charge even when it does not apply. The real CT is to pretend that our elections and sabrina 1 Nov 2012 #245

If That is Your Methodology, On the Road Nov 2012 #253

Okay, I Confess! You got me... brooklynite Nov 2012 #266

We all spent time and money getting Democrats elected. We did so back sabrina 1 Nov 2012 #290

It May Be True, It May Not Be True colsohlibgal Nov 2012 #278

ANONYMOUS - WHERE IS YOUR EVIDENCE!!! warrprayer Nov 2012 #289

It's the Third Way, working hard to protect the Military Industrial Complex from democracy. Zorra Dec 2012 #298