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ismnotwasm

(42,674 posts)
Tue Nov 27, 2012, 12:15 PM Nov 2012

On "Bitch" and other Misogynist language [View all]

Cross post from Another forum. With an addendum. I did NOT block out or use punctuation for certain words.

This article is from 2007. Have things gotten better? Or worse? Given the yet again, 'dust ups' over language, I found this post apropos to current events in general. What's sad is we still have to explain, over and over, why context is everything. This is a much longer post than the excerpt I have here and has a couple of embedded articles.


Quite honestly, I've had almost this exact same conversation before with male, self-identified liberal/progressive bloggers at whose blogs I objected to the use of sexist language, which is why I'm not identifying the blogger with whom I had this conversation. It's far too typical for me to single him out. I was, however, particularly disappointed by the way this conversation went, because I had thought that the person with whom I was speaking would be receptive to hearing how alienating it is, if for no other reason than because it will necessarily limit their audience. I was evidently mistaken.
By which I shouldn't be surprised, given that, as I said, I've had this conversation before, and it always goes the same way. So let me just respond to this point-by-point, since they're the same responses I inevitably get in such exchanges, and all of them have been raised in the comments of Shakes on multiple occasions:

1. The Brits use it. Some segments of British society are indeed fond of using the word cunt a lot. There are pubs in London where three seconds doesn't go by without someone shouting "yeh feckin' cunt!" at his or her mate. And…that really has nothing to do with its use at an American blog about American politics.

It also, btw, has nothing to do with whether it's intrinsically sexist. There are also bars in America where not three seconds pass without one guy calling another guy a fag. The frequency of its use in specific regional areas doesn't make it not homophobic—in those areas, or anywhere else.

Relatedly, the attempt to rip misogynist slurs from their roots to try to redefine them doesn't fly. "I'm using it in the European way" is just a cynical ploy to justify the continued use of misogynistic language that feels good to use. "Asshole" just doesn't have the zing! of "cunt," which is why we get these tortured explanations about how "cunt" isn't being used in the misogynistic way, but in the British or European way, where the word's ubiquity is fallaciously used as evidence that the word has lost all its meaning.
Throwing around the word cunt as if it has no meaning anymore—or some "new" meaning separate from gender—is ignorant and lazy, and contributes, in spite of all protestations to the contrary, to a culture of inequality.

2. I use it. My using the word cunt to describe myself and a man using it to describe another man are fundamentally different contexts. To pretend that this difference is not patently fucking obvious is what August calls a fabricated belief. No one with two brain cells still knocking together honestly believes that white people using the n-word as an insult and black people using it for any reason are equivalent, nor that a gay man describing himself as a faggot is the same as Ann Coulter describing John Edwards as a faggot. And no one should have the slightest bit of trouble wrapping their heads around the idea that my (or other women) reclaiming the word cunt (or bitch, or other sexist euphemisms) to describe ourselves is not the same as a man using it as an insult.

I love the word cunt, and I'm all for reclaiming it—but reclaiming "cunt" is about a woman wearing it herself and wielding it ironically, which is necessarily as a compliment, not an insult. If I call my girlfriend "a beautiful cunt" for expertly handling a sexist wanker, that's got reappropriative power. If I call her "a dumb cunt" because she does something foolish, not so much.

There are ways to use words and there are ways to use words—and knowing the difference, rooting out the subversive context from that which simply perpetuates oppression, is not remotely difficult.

And no matter how often women use it in a reclaimative fashion, it doesn't give anyone (of either sex) permission to use it as an insult. The whole "you use it" justification strikes me as a rather pathetic bit of whining; why do you get to use it and I don't? As if that's some big coup for the girlz. Trust me—in the whole "undeserved privilege since birth" v. "getting to use cunt" cage match, you've got the better end of the bargain. So STFU.

3. The guy who used it is "no misogynist." He was using this term for female genitalia to insult a man, after all, and his intent was not to be misogynistic. Okay, first of all, let’s pull this apart into two pieces:

A. Intent: If you're turning part of a woman's body into a slur to insult someone, the implication is necessarily that cunts are bad, nasty, less than, in some way something that a person wouldn't want to be or be associated with. That's how insults work. When cunt is used as a slur, it is dependent on construing a woman's body part negatively—and it thusly misogynistic, because it inexorably insults women in the process. Specifically using a misogynistic slur against a man can't be anything but intentionally misogynistic. If you don't intend to demean women, then don't use misogynistic slurs. It's really as simple as that.

B. Not a Misogynist. How often does one have to use misogynistic language before one can be identified as a misogynist? Twenty times? A hundred? An infinite number of times, as long as he doesn't beat women? During the "cunt/whore" dust-up recounted here, Piny wrote a great post addressing this very question:

I wholeheartedly agree that there is a difference between someone who posts an ill-conceived blackface photoshop caricature and, say, Nathan Bedford Forrest. I will also happily concede that there is a difference between someone who openly identifies as feminist but casually uses misogynistic slurs and graphic misogynistic riffs to deride people–women in particular–and, say, John Knox.

This does not mean that it’s a good idea to restrict “a racist,” “a sexist,” and “a misogynist,” to the very worst of the worst. …t reduces complaints about all of these words to matters of personal affront, such that “sexist” and “cunt” are equated. “Sexist” becomes not a criticism of someone’s demonstrated beliefs, a term like “reactionary,” but an epithet as crude as the slurs to which it responds. It’s mean and unfair to call someone a sexist.




http://www.shakesville.com/2007/11/on-bitch-and-other-misogynist-language.html
137 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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k and r--and counting. . . niyad Nov 2012 #1
I recommend people all start using car parts... snooper2 Nov 2012 #2
that is kinda cute. my 15 yr old will appreciate that. i will throw it out there seabeyond Nov 2012 #5
Why don't you go bleed your brakes, tough guy? Blue_Tires Nov 2012 #7
keep talking like that I'll set your timing snooper2 Nov 2012 #9
Oh! Another comment from the Turn Signal Not Working gallery! Kaleva Nov 2012 #13
They blow their gaskets so darned easy around here. n/t Whisp Nov 2012 #108
You're a fouled plug. aikoaiko Nov 2012 #11
'You have the logic of of a Mazda' ismnotwasm Nov 2012 #12
Show me your volvo Jeff In Milwaukee Nov 2012 #39
I'll show you my volvo if you show me your prius n/t Tsiyu Nov 2012 #51
You know, its a darned shame that many people object to the word... Jeff In Milwaukee Nov 2012 #86
Alright, that's pretty awesome... SidDithers Nov 2012 #69
Keep it up and I'll shove my banana in your tailpipe. Son of Gob Nov 2012 #80
Kiss my driveshaft! backscatter712 Nov 2012 #88
Seriously!?! I'm the first one to use "dipstick"!!!?? AlexSatan Nov 2012 #103
nah, we used that as an insult in my neighborhood in gradeschool. HiPointDem Nov 2012 #126
Love it! AverageJoe90 Nov 2012 #112
I'll change your oil Aerows Nov 2012 #113
Our recent favorite: Calling people J-holes. TalkingDog Nov 2012 #119
Note to word police: hobbit709 Nov 2012 #3
Were you contemplating banning them? ismnotwasm Nov 2012 #16
I believe in total free speech. hobbit709 Nov 2012 #18
Perhaps you misread the post. It said nothing about banning. redqueen Nov 2012 #21
My comment was aimed at the word police. hobbit709 Nov 2012 #23
This thread is about hate speech. nt redqueen Nov 2012 #24
+1000. n/t pnwmom Nov 2012 #64
So you don't want to ban hate speech AlexSatan Nov 2012 #104
+10 RC Nov 2012 #59
So you believe in the right to shout "Fire!" in a crowded theater? Gormy Cuss Nov 2012 #118
As I said "Be prepared to face the consequences" hobbit709 Nov 2012 #127
Jail time's a good consequence, as is social shunning. n/t Gormy Cuss Nov 2012 #128
Note to you: it doesn't fucking matter, Zippy. i am thee modren man Nov 2012 #46
Does that apply to the n- word, too? But, as it happens, pnwmom Nov 2012 #63
Word Police to the left, Dramatic Labels to the right... LanternWaste Nov 2012 #71
Goddam word wars. Iggo Nov 2012 #4
I know that if a woman call a guy a dick or asshole, it's no big deal. I'm kind of used to it brewens Nov 2012 #6
They are still sexist words TrueBlueinCO Nov 2012 #28
Related: 16 Days of Activism Against Gender Violence 2012 redqueen Nov 2012 #8
K&R for the OP, and for your post as well. Zorra Nov 2012 #27
Thank you, and yes, I do. redqueen Nov 2012 #33
Does it matter who is using it and how it is being used? FrodosPet Nov 2012 #94
Did you read the OP? That is No. 2 on the list. redqueen Nov 2012 #95
Language and words change. Arcanetrance Nov 2012 #10
If someone wasn't aware that it is a misogynist term gollygee Nov 2012 #14
I disagree on the equality of cunt and asshole not in the same ballpark imo Arcanetrance Nov 2012 #19
No, you not being aware of its meaning doesn't mean its meaning has changed gollygee Nov 2012 #22
I don't think everyone who uses the word think about it being used as a term for a vagina. Arcanetrance Nov 2012 #25
It makes no difference. redqueen Nov 2012 #30
I agree with you if has been fun discussing this with you. Arcanetrance Nov 2012 #32
welcome to DU--and guess what? on this subject, everyone is NOT in agreement, and we do niyad Nov 2012 #96
What does "not tolerate" them include AlexSatan Nov 2012 #105
Very well said. I hope people read the post, redqueen Nov 2012 #20
I pretty much never hear asshole or dick used to insult a woman, just men TrueBlueinCO Nov 2012 #35
Asshole isn't gender-specific cyberswede Nov 2012 #47
I know that it's not gender specific per se TrueBlueinCO Nov 2012 #52
I use it with absolutely no regard to gender (nt) AlexSatan Nov 2012 #106
And the time may actually come when sexist insults are part and parcel LanternWaste Nov 2012 #77
Opinions are like assholes . . . gollygee Nov 2012 #85
When women are saying the word is unacceptable then it is!... Little Star Nov 2012 #34
Which women? mythology Nov 2012 #123
This subject is not about any one woman. It is a societal problem.... Little Star Nov 2012 #124
Language and words not only change, they mean different things in different places Spider Jerusalem Nov 2012 #60
Yup. I cringe every time I watch Shaun of the Dead with my kids (12 & 14)... SidDithers Nov 2012 #72
Number 1 on the list. redqueen Nov 2012 #82
The worst and most illogical argument in language 'wars' ismnotwasm Nov 2012 #15
words matter so much they create who we are by our chosen words to self, who others are, seabeyond Nov 2012 #17
Worrying about words: First world problems Pacafishmate Nov 2012 #26
You think ismnotwasm Nov 2012 #41
Post removed Post removed Nov 2012 #81
Word usage affects how people see and treat women worldwide, and yes even those Lars39 Nov 2012 #84
He's a crusty pizza pie. n/t JimDandy Dec 2012 #136
Two points gollygee Nov 2012 #87
where the article lost me is when they talked about permission quinnox Nov 2012 #29
I am going to copy part of a post I made earlier because it fits here.. Little Star Nov 2012 #31
But, the thing is the f word was what was yelled Sissyk Nov 2012 #38
Sissyk, Little Star Nov 2012 #74
Thank you, Little Star! Sissyk Nov 2012 #91
Context includes rrneck Nov 2012 #36
Words evolve in their meaning. Whovian Nov 2012 #37
No, words evolve in their meaning for *some* people, not for everyone, and certainly not at the same Lars39 Nov 2012 #42
Really? ismnotwasm Nov 2012 #45
"Bitchin' wave, dude." off the top of my head. Whovian Nov 2012 #50
"Bitchin'" is not pejorative. redqueen Nov 2012 #54
SEZ YOU! Perjorative is in the eye of the beholder. Whovian Nov 2012 #58
I find this discussion interesting. So you think that pejorative is in the receiving rhett o rick Nov 2012 #129
I don't find it different at all and don't understand why anyone does TorchTheWitch Nov 2012 #133
"Bitch" ismnotwasm Nov 2012 #57
can we agree and disagree? Whovian Nov 2012 #66
We can ismnotwasm Nov 2012 #73
I feel we also need to realise the different local and economic cultures Whovian Nov 2012 #92
That is also a very valid point ismnotwasm Nov 2012 #116
I wonder how many people are even deigning to read the damn post. redqueen Nov 2012 #40
Very few ismnotwasm Nov 2012 #44
And also providng real time examples of exactly the kind of excuse-making and rationalization redqueen Nov 2012 #48
I read the post and will read it again at least once more. rhett o rick Nov 2012 #117
This message was self-deleted by its author opiate69 Nov 2012 #53
But but but FREEEEEEEEEEEE SPEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEECH1!1!!!! MadrasT Nov 2012 #61
Post removed Post removed Nov 2012 #43
Oh, that's good! redqueen Nov 2012 #49
OMG, I can't believe this got hidden. Whovian Nov 2012 #99
Ha, I am surprised it took so long. redqueen Nov 2012 #100
Sorry. I juried this one, and was among the 5 members to hide it. Panasonic Nov 2012 #109
You think it was a good alert, you voted to hide it, so why apologize? nt redqueen Nov 2012 #115
That's interesting. And yet, yesterday in GD, we had this actual TITLE of an OP Zorra Nov 2012 #120
Hm. Panasonic Nov 2012 #122
"Misogyny is ALWAYS going to be a problem here in DU" Zorra Nov 2012 #130
Didn't see T-1 yet Kalidurga Nov 2012 #55
This rocks. n/t MadrasT Nov 2012 #62
Bingo! Stole it for future use, thanks. nt Zorra Nov 2012 #65
My new wallpaper ismnotwasm Nov 2012 #67
Book Marking. Little Star Nov 2012 #76
Ha! gollygee Nov 2012 #78
OMG! That post was hidden! One of the most perfect validations of a DU OP ever! Zorra Nov 2012 #97
I'm surprised it took so long. I would LOVE to know who alerted. nt redqueen Nov 2012 #98
I'd love to see the jury results too n/t gollygee Nov 2012 #101
See post #109 for jury results Panasonic Nov 2012 #110
I saw. Thanks for posting! n/t gollygee Nov 2012 #111
When several of us in our conservative community produced The Vagina Monlogues duhneece Nov 2012 #56
Agree ismnotwasm Nov 2012 #68
yes. Tuesday Afternoon Nov 2012 #70
Somewhat related, was on a jury yesterday, and was surprised at the result... SidDithers Nov 2012 #75
I am not the least bit surprised. nt redqueen Nov 2012 #79
Are "dick" and "prick" necessarily sexist insults as well? (n/t) thesquanderer Nov 2012 #83
There are two ways of looking at this. gollygee Nov 2012 #89
I don't think "context is everthing" lumberjack_jeff Nov 2012 #90
linguistic realities sigmasix Nov 2012 #93
Wow ismnotwasm Nov 2012 #114
Not every man has been inculcated since birth. Your last line. lonestarnot Nov 2012 #125
Great post. Starry Messenger Nov 2012 #132
Looks like this thread escaped from the Meta zoo. Quantess Nov 2012 #102
. snagglepuss Nov 2012 #107
Well, I go by the old sticks and stones rule Jersey Devil Nov 2012 #121
a loss for words... notgoinback Nov 2012 #131
along the same lines is this intersting blog in ms niyad Nov 2012 #134
This is why I agree with the OP re: context. redqueen Nov 2012 #135
Just thought this could use a kick. redqueen May 2014 #137
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