General Discussion

tama

(9,137 posts)

46. How hard?

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 12:05 AM

Dec 2012

Without idealized ideology, capitalism as we know it is based on infinite growth and finite energy capital of fossile fuels. The real wages and energy consumption per capita have been stagnated or dropping since 70's. Since 2008 it's been quite clear that we have reached global PO plateau, as more or less predicted by Club of Rome and numerous geologists. As real wage consumption demand has not been increasing but going down, demand creation has been based on inflating huge and huger debt bubbles to be replaced with even huger when they burst, until 2008 when that game stopped working.

Collapse of imperially globalized capitalism and the millennia long patterns of imperial civilizations that have led to capitalism as we know it is not a simple and sudden process in terms of normal human attention span. But it's pretty safe to say that is what we are now living.

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Capitalism is not the enemy. Capitalism has improved the Lives of millions. [View all] BrentWil Dec 2012 OP

I agree Dyedinthewoolliberal Dec 2012 #1

Remember the one economic truth that GW Bush refused to learn: burnsei sensei Dec 2012 #129

But that kind of idealized capitalism you describe doesn't exist, and perhaps never has... marmar Dec 2012 #2

And were the poor better off in India in the 1950s? BrentWil Dec 2012 #3

Central planning did not work in the 1950s quaker bill Dec 2012 #7

Central planning didn't work because there were political motivations instead of the profit BrentWil Dec 2012 #10

Postulate as you may quaker bill Dec 2012 #22

It's Not About Human Nature. It's About Math. DemocratSinceBirth Dec 2012 #84

You are missing the point quaker bill Dec 2012 #231

Well, why isn't it? BrentWil Dec 2012 #88

False comparision of Wal Mart to gov't central planning. Mr. Blue Sky Dec 2012 #226

It was an illustration, not an analogy quaker bill Dec 2012 #230

In some cases, yes Lydia Leftcoast Dec 2012 #43

No one would argue in some cases... BrentWil Dec 2012 #56

You know, a few economists and historians nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #54

If mankind could ever get to ideal socialism or ideal capitalism...either would work ...but kelliekat44 Dec 2012 #73

Both are Utopias nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #103

More's 1515 Utopia is an explicit critique of capitalism allrevvedup Dec 2012 #208

Yeah, but I am talking of Smith nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #210

They might be utopian but they are not Utopias. allrevvedup Dec 2012 #212

An utopian philosophy is a type of thinking. nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #217

More's Utopia was the first Utopia. allrevvedup Dec 2012 #234

You are fixed on tittle nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #237

It's Not Capitalism Anymore When the Robber Barons Buy the Government AndyTiedye Dec 2012 #4

How have Buffett, Gates, or Soros "bought the government"? banned from Kos Dec 2012 #5

Ummm... Comrade_McKenzie Dec 2012 #6

Today's capitalism - with emphasis on short-term profits by almost any means - is a problem. Hoyt Dec 2012 #8

sounds like the flea market down the street banned from Kos Dec 2012 #9

Capitalism isn't the enemy. Deregulated capitalism is. Initech Dec 2012 #11

The rush to laissez faire capitalism is what's going to kill this country if Cleita Dec 2012 #12

You are arguing from the context of agrarian civilization NoOneMan Dec 2012 #13

I would certainly advocate the cessation of cess-life.. BrentWil Dec 2012 #14

Dealing with problems as they come just increases social complexity NoOneMan Dec 2012 #15

Then what is the "solution" NT BrentWil Dec 2012 #16

By now, there may be none NoOneMan Dec 2012 #20

"The best we can hope for is complete economic collapse" KansDem Dec 2012 #70

Why Wouldn't A Complete Economic Collapse Result In A "Lord Of The Flies" Situation? DemocratSinceBirth Dec 2012 #85

Its possible, but hey, whats the alternative? NoOneMan Dec 2012 #119

To Muddle Through With What We Have Now And To Improve It To Make It As Kind And Fair As Possible/nt DemocratSinceBirth Dec 2012 #123

Good luck muddling through 400ppm of CO2 NoOneMan Dec 2012 #126

I Don't Think That Will Happen In Our Lifetimes Or Children's Children's Children's Lifetimes DemocratSinceBirth Dec 2012 #128

You really do not seem to understand the magnitude NoOneMan Dec 2012 #130

Hobbes is no better than Rand tama Dec 2012 #194

Like Riots/No Thanks DemocratSinceBirth Dec 2012 #209

What else is "sovereign" tama Dec 2012 #213

Hopefully, The Sovereign Is Given The Right To Use Force Fairly And Judiciously DemocratSinceBirth Dec 2012 #218

It is fine to be animal tama Dec 2012 #220

Is Survival Not The First Goal Of Any Living Being? DemocratSinceBirth Dec 2012 #221

Did Maslow ask all living beings? tama Dec 2012 #222

That Just Proves The Rule DemocratSinceBirth Dec 2012 #224

What the parasite class living of capital interests and work of others fear most: tama Dec 2012 #37

But they can't help themselves... 2naSalit Dec 2012 #60

I can see tama Dec 2012 #193

Capitalism is not the same thing as Industrialization. Odin2005 Dec 2012 #17

This is the rebuttal to OP. +1000 PowerToThePeople Dec 2012 #68

Chicken dinner! Democracyinkind Dec 2012 #83

Capitalism is also not the same thing as democracy or social progress. JackRiddler Dec 2012 #202

It's all relative. Maybe for a whole bunch of European imperialists it has. Maybe even not them. Zorra Dec 2012 #18

^^^This ^^^ limpyhobbler Dec 2012 #151

European Imperialists tama Dec 2012 #174

I Sincerely Disagree Taverner Dec 2012 #19

It takes people to objectify. randome Dec 2012 #21

costco isn't an example of benign capitalism capitalism that pays above prevailing wage HiPointDem Dec 2012 #25

Costco does more than pay better. randome Dec 2012 #27

it very well may. that doesn't make it benign capitalism. all capitalism participates in the HiPointDem Dec 2012 #30

How would you put tens of millions of people to work, then? randome Dec 2012 #32

We don't want tama Dec 2012 #41

If Everybody Is Free From Work How Do We Get Goodies Like Food, Shelter, And Medical Care? DemocratSinceBirth Dec 2012 #86

There's no plan tama Dec 2012 #171

To quote Travolta in Pulp Fiction: "A bum. You've decided to be a bum." randome Dec 2012 #214

What else is there? tama Dec 2012 #216

Productivity in the US has increased by a factor of 4 since WW II eridani Dec 2012 #232

How About Finding Something For Everbody To Do That Gives Him Or Her A Sense Of Self Worth/nt DemocratSinceBirth Dec 2012 #235

Alternatively, we could just deal with the fact that it takes fewer and fewer people to make eridani Dec 2012 #238

Capitalism doesn't create work. ArcticFox Dec 2012 #62

Is it possible to regulate any economic system of a complex society, such that... NoOneMan Dec 2012 #26

I'm not cheerleading anything. randome Dec 2012 #31

We may not even have a society in 100 years, thanks in some part to capitalism NoOneMan Dec 2012 #34

You got that right. randome Dec 2012 #38

Amen. We are just now seeing the 'awesome' results of capitalism. Wait 50 yrs & get back to us.nt Nay Dec 2012 #122

There can be benign capitalism. There can also be a benign tumor. Taverner Dec 2012 #168

it has. it's also ruined the lives of millions. so on balance it's a wash at best. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #23

Of course Capitalism has made the world better. Even Marxists won't argue that point. white_wolf Dec 2012 #24

Its really hard to tell if something has ran its course... BrentWil Dec 2012 #33

"has RUN its course"-- Lydia Leftcoast Dec 2012 #44

How hard? tama Dec 2012 #46

Your summary reminds me of corporations I've worked in ... start up companies require one RKP5637 Dec 2012 #36

Must be well-regulated; if not, vipers take over. elleng Dec 2012 #28

The root cause of problems with capitalism from my perspective is the RKP5637 Dec 2012 #29

I think you discovered the inevitable. immoderate Dec 2012 #40

Yep, it's a system that often handsomely rewards bullying and RKP5637 Dec 2012 #50

Capitalism, like beer and socialism, is great in moderation. nt Speck Tater Dec 2012 #35

BOTH! NashvilleLefty Dec 2012 #39

Concept of Capitalism tama Dec 2012 #48

Tell that to slave workers in Burma or Bangladesh AgingAmerican Dec 2012 #42

Well.. BrentWil Dec 2012 #47

Meanwhile, the real standard of living for much of theAmerican & European middle-class has declined. leveymg Dec 2012 #45

Well, yes. Sweden and Norway are better than North Korea and Cuba (nt) Nye Bevan Dec 2012 #49

We tried the Keynesian answer once, from about 1935-1975, but we're back in the same pickle again. limpyhobbler Dec 2012 #51

I can't disagree with your conclusion. Cleita Dec 2012 #53

Just say exactly what we want. limpyhobbler Dec 2012 #148

I have thought about a utopian type technological society, actually for a fictional Cleita Dec 2012 #153

hmmm... limpyhobbler Dec 2012 #158

Thanks. If I ever get it written, I will send you some pages Cleita Dec 2012 #164

ok cool limpyhobbler Dec 2012 #170

General strike tama Dec 2012 #175

I wish it were possible. In large cities, it could be useful, Cleita Dec 2012 #182

Oh it's possible tama Dec 2012 #185

I was thinking 2naSalit Dec 2012 #64

How much nationalization does it take before you lose capitalism? white_wolf Dec 2012 #116

Not sure 2naSalit Dec 2012 #117

Well, I for one don't want the government designing my clothes Cleita Dec 2012 #180

I would like to nationalize all our natural resources as belonging to the people. Cleita Dec 2012 #155

That's the way it was supposed to work 2naSalit Dec 2012 #166

"Let it be known, there is a fountain eridani Dec 2012 #233

We still would have to socialized medicine, education and other things made by man Cleita Dec 2012 #236

During the era of New Deal dominance, we used to call those things public goods eridani Dec 2012 #239

Trying to think of someone outside Anglo-America ... Deep13 Dec 2012 #52

Japan seems to be doing okay. white_wolf Dec 2012 #55

China since 1979 isn't doing too bad...NT BrentWil Dec 2012 #57

You mean the same China where factories put up nets to stop people from committing suicide? white_wolf Dec 2012 #58

Or a China where 5% of the population died during the Great Leap Forward... BrentWil Dec 2012 #59

I doubt China is any better off than it was under Mao. white_wolf Dec 2012 #61

You have a very distorted view of China BrentWil Dec 2012 #89

And you have a very rose-colored view of it. HughBeaumont Dec 2012 #227

I have seen it... BrentWil Dec 2012 #229

Nor Is Taiwan Or South Korea DemocratSinceBirth Dec 2012 #87

A China where the PTB goes into a village, mows it down, puts up cheap apt houses, and forces the Nay Dec 2012 #121

Try comparing South Korea with North Korea (nt ) Nye Bevan Dec 2012 #66

"Life on planet earth has improved" NickB79 Dec 2012 #63

INdeed 2naSalit Dec 2012 #65

Indeed. It is all about where you are "viewing" it from. 99Forever Dec 2012 #80

"Capitalism has defeated Communism in Russia, and Democracy in the US." -Unknown Fire Walk With Me Dec 2012 #67

Capitalism is the mechanism that fueled and made possible the rapid iemitsu Dec 2012 #69

It is one of the better ideas from 1780 quaker bill Dec 2012 #71

One addition to your "problems with collectivist approaches....." socialist_n_TN Dec 2012 #108

I would agree with active opposition as a problem quaker bill Dec 2012 #172

Product of individual greed supported by state violence and terror tama Dec 2012 #176

Again, it was an idea from the 1780s. quaker bill Dec 2012 #198

History tama Dec 2012 #199

Yes there were alot of bad ideas in the 1780s. quaker bill Dec 2012 #225

We need a new "ism." n/t OneGrassRoot Dec 2012 #72

Capitalism.. sendero Dec 2012 #74

Does capitalism always end in crony capitalism? limpyhobbler Dec 2012 #150

I think the US version of capitalism.. sendero Dec 2012 #162

How is it supposed to be done? tama Dec 2012 #177

Most of the content of your post is largely about the Green Revolution... Humanist_Activist Dec 2012 #75

Your comment and ProSense Dec 2012 #76

I just find his argument silly, if those non-profits did the capitalistic thing, those varieties... Humanist_Activist Dec 2012 #78

Green Revolution tama Dec 2012 #178

Short term benefit may lead to long term problems, that is true... Humanist_Activist Dec 2012 #204

Wiki tama Dec 2012 #206

Yes, Capitalism is much better than Feudalism. And much worse than Socialism. DireStrike Dec 2012 #77

Oh, I don't know. Either one can be pretty bad Recursion Dec 2012 #79

Have you noticed that none of these "socialist" revolutions were in heavily industrialized nations? DireStrike Dec 2012 #90

The basic thought that capital in a capitalist society has to concentrate in the hands of the few is BrentWil Dec 2012 #93

This is a shallow understanding of the underlying economics and politics. DireStrike Dec 2012 #98

What would Cuba look like theKed Dec 2012 #139

Depends how you define socialism democrattotheend Dec 2012 #143

Certainly. DireStrike Dec 2012 #144

Depends how you define better tama Dec 2012 #181

This site is Democratic Underground democrattotheend Dec 2012 #201

Nah tama Dec 2012 #203

Your OP suffers from a general failure to define terms. Let's define 'capitalism' first and coalition_unwilling Dec 2012 #81

Slavery is not the problem. Slavery has improved the lives of millions. Democracyinkind Dec 2012 #82

Yeah. Strawman Argument But The OP Didn't Make It DemocratSinceBirth Dec 2012 #91

That's not the point. DireStrike Dec 2012 #94

I don't have time to model this and run a regression model... BrentWil Dec 2012 #95

And the supporting arguments. DireStrike Dec 2012 #100

Native Americans very much disagree nt tama Dec 2012 #184

Well, good luck to science in the endeavor of unmasking which material benefits Democracyinkind Dec 2012 #105

Actually it hasn't, even those not enslaved.... BrentWil Dec 2012 #92

So your argument ProSense Dec 2012 #96

There Were Both Moral And Economic Arguments Against Slavery. They Weren't Mutually Exclusive. DemocratSinceBirth Dec 2012 #99

I made no ProSense Dec 2012 #104

The Economic Argument While Somewhat True Always Bothers Me. DemocratSinceBirth Dec 2012 #106

But Lincoln Saw Slavery Dying Out As A Result Of Its Own Contradictions DemocratSinceBirth Dec 2012 #97

While I agree with your macroeconomic points... Democracyinkind Dec 2012 #102

Capitalism is just greed by another name. lalalu Dec 2012 #101

Yes and no. Capitalism should be a tool, not a religion. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #107

I'll disagree partially........ socialist_n_TN Dec 2012 #110

The fault for that issue lies with government regulatory choices. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #113

That's the "political" part of the system at work......... socialist_n_TN Dec 2012 #141

What great innovation has capitalism made in recent decades? white_wolf Dec 2012 #114

And a 2naSalit Dec 2012 #118

And they aren't even good video games. white_wolf Dec 2012 #120

I wouldn't know 2naSalit Dec 2012 #124

Oh it's pretty blatant propaganda, especially the campaign modes. white_wolf Dec 2012 #125

It certainly does 2naSalit Dec 2012 #127

Assassins Creed III tama Dec 2012 #186

See, Assassin's Creed doesn't bother me that much simply because it is clearly fictional. white_wolf Dec 2012 #211

Though fictional tama Dec 2012 #215

DU? lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #131

DU falls under the internet category. white_wolf Dec 2012 #133

Earlg and Elad will be surprised that their work product is simply a gov. project. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #137

DU is a very well put together website, but isn't something that hasn't been done before. white_wolf Dec 2012 #138

Sure it is. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #142

Market share? nt tama Dec 2012 #188

Yes, it is a business. nt lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #190

Not really tama Dec 2012 #192

Though this is privately own tama Dec 2012 #187

The admins have families to feed. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #205

OK tama Dec 2012 #207

Ok - how about these... Mr. Blue Sky Dec 2012 #228

Look up green revolution Progressive dog Dec 2012 #109

Do look it up tama Dec 2012 #189

The Gardens of Democracy by Liu and Hanauer gulliver Dec 2012 #111

Is this about ProSense Dec 2012 #112

It's about democratic, government-tended capitalism gulliver Dec 2012 #115

Capitalism quickly reaches the limits of growth. Warren Stupidity Dec 2012 #132

The problem that we face is that we do not understand the problem NoOneMan Dec 2012 #135

Really there are plenty of bright people and many understand the problems. Warren Stupidity Dec 2012 #136

But these people you speak of are not normally in politics NoOneMan Dec 2012 #140

We aren't disagreeing on that. Warren Stupidity Dec 2012 #145

Hmm tama Dec 2012 #191

Trotsky was an authoritarian mass murderer. Nt. Warren Stupidity Dec 2012 #195

Yup tama Dec 2012 #196

Washington springs to mind. white_wolf Dec 2012 #219

Ah, that Conotocaurius tama Dec 2012 #223

The same could be said of any religion. rucky Dec 2012 #134

A good read about American capitalism around the world PowerToThePeople Dec 2012 #146

Capitalism has a propensity billh58 Dec 2012 #147

Only if you can overlook the millions of lives it has destroyed. Tierra_y_Libertad Dec 2012 #149

At the expense of billions nt Xipe Totec Dec 2012 #152

Capitalism is simply a system of currency control and circulation, Egalitarian Thug Dec 2012 #154

HUHH? Seen the lastest Child Poverty Rate in the U.S.?? Iggy Dec 2012 #156

There's a world of difference between "trade" and "markets," and "Capitalism" Scootaloo Dec 2012 #157

REGULATED capitalism is just fine. Zoeisright Dec 2012 #159

Actually it isn't. Warren Stupidity Dec 2012 #197

And capitalism has easily ruined just as many lives as it has improved. kestrel91316 Dec 2012 #160

That's like saying 'water is healthy'. Marr Dec 2012 #161

"The comfort of the rich depends upon an abundant supply of the poor." Voltaire Tierra_y_Libertad Dec 2012 #163

Global Warming canceled your parade. GeorgeGist Dec 2012 #165

In general I agree, but with two stipulations. First full participation is essential 1-Old-Man Dec 2012 #167

I don't agree. Chan790 Dec 2012 #169

Big business is a problem. moondust Dec 2012 #173

Unchecked it evolves into monopolies. Whovian Dec 2012 #179

And stolen the lives of billions. eom TransitJohn Dec 2012 #183

Capitalism brought misery, cultural displacement and exile for numerous peoples. MichaelMcGuire Dec 2012 #200