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In reply to the discussion: Capitalism is not the enemy. Capitalism has improved the Lives of millions. [View all]allrevvedup
(408 posts)208. More's 1515 Utopia is an explicit critique of capitalism
or what we now call capitalism, namely the pursuit of private profit and accumulation of private wealth through mercantile activity. It's harsh and there's no mistaking what he means once he gets rolling in Book II: Utopia is "utopian" because it's a money-less, private-property-less commonwealth. Here are some highlights from a 1901 translation (the original is in Latin):
Thus have I described to you, as particularly as I could, the Constitution of that commonwealth, which I do not only think the best in the world, but indeed the only commonwealth that truly deserves that name. In all other places it is visible that, while people talk of a commonwealth, every man only seeks his own wealth; but there, where no man has any property, all men zealously pursue the good of the public, and, indeed, it is no wonder to see men act so differently, for in other commonwealths every man knows that, unless he provides for himself, how flourishing soever the commonwealth may be, he must die of hunger, so that he sees the necessity of preferring his own concerns to the public; but in Utopia, where every man has a right to everything, they all know that if care is taken to keep the public stores full no private man can want anything; for among them there is no unequal distribution, so that no man is poor, none in necessity, and though no man has anything, yet they are all rich; for what can make a man so rich as to lead a serene and cheerful life, free from anxieties; neither apprehending want himself, nor vexed with the endless complaints of his wife? He is not afraid of the misery of his children, nor is he contriving how to raise a portion for his daughters; but is secure in this, that both he and his wife, his children and grand-children, to as many generations as he can fancy, will all live both plentifully and happily . . . .
The richer sort are often endeavouring to bring the hire of labourers lower, not only by their fraudulent practices, but by the laws which they procure to be made to that effect, so that though it is a thing most unjust in itself to give such small rewards to those who deserve so well of the public, yet they have given those hardships the name and colour of justice, by procuring laws to be made for regulating them.
Therefore I must say that, as I hope for mercy, I can have no other notion of all the other governments that I see or know, than that they are a conspiracy of the rich, who, on pretence of managing the public, only pursue their private ends, and devise all the ways and arts they can find out; first, that they may, without danger, preserve all that they have so ill-acquired, and then, that they may engage the poor to toil and labour for them at as low rates as possible, and oppress them as much as they please; . . . . yet these wicked men, after they have, by a most insatiable covetousness, divided that among themselves with which all the rest might have been well supplied, are far from that happiness that is enjoyed among the Utopians; for the use as well as the desire of money being extinguished, much anxiety and great occasions of mischief is cut off with it, and who does not see that the frauds, thefts, robberies, quarrels, tumults, contentions, seditions, murders, treacheries, and witchcrafts . . . if money were not any more valued by the world?
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/2130/2130-h/2130-h.htm
And to be perfectly honest I agree with him!
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Capitalism is not the enemy. Capitalism has improved the Lives of millions. [View all]
BrentWil
Dec 2012
OP
But that kind of idealized capitalism you describe doesn't exist, and perhaps never has...
marmar
Dec 2012
#2
Central planning didn't work because there were political motivations instead of the profit
BrentWil
Dec 2012
#10
If mankind could ever get to ideal socialism or ideal capitalism...either would work ...but
kelliekat44
Dec 2012
#73
Today's capitalism - with emphasis on short-term profits by almost any means - is a problem.
Hoyt
Dec 2012
#8
Why Wouldn't A Complete Economic Collapse Result In A "Lord Of The Flies" Situation?
DemocratSinceBirth
Dec 2012
#85
To Muddle Through With What We Have Now And To Improve It To Make It As Kind And Fair As Possible/nt
DemocratSinceBirth
Dec 2012
#123
I Don't Think That Will Happen In Our Lifetimes Or Children's Children's Children's Lifetimes
DemocratSinceBirth
Dec 2012
#128
Hopefully, The Sovereign Is Given The Right To Use Force Fairly And Judiciously
DemocratSinceBirth
Dec 2012
#218
It's all relative. Maybe for a whole bunch of European imperialists it has. Maybe even not them.
Zorra
Dec 2012
#18
costco isn't an example of benign capitalism capitalism that pays above prevailing wage
HiPointDem
Dec 2012
#25
it very well may. that doesn't make it benign capitalism. all capitalism participates in the
HiPointDem
Dec 2012
#30
If Everybody Is Free From Work How Do We Get Goodies Like Food, Shelter, And Medical Care?
DemocratSinceBirth
Dec 2012
#86
How About Finding Something For Everbody To Do That Gives Him Or Her A Sense Of Self Worth/nt
DemocratSinceBirth
Dec 2012
#235
Alternatively, we could just deal with the fact that it takes fewer and fewer people to make
eridani
Dec 2012
#238
Is it possible to regulate any economic system of a complex society, such that...
NoOneMan
Dec 2012
#26
We may not even have a society in 100 years, thanks in some part to capitalism
NoOneMan
Dec 2012
#34
Amen. We are just now seeing the 'awesome' results of capitalism. Wait 50 yrs & get back to us.nt
Nay
Dec 2012
#122
it has. it's also ruined the lives of millions. so on balance it's a wash at best.
HiPointDem
Dec 2012
#23
Of course Capitalism has made the world better. Even Marxists won't argue that point.
white_wolf
Dec 2012
#24
Your summary reminds me of corporations I've worked in ... start up companies require one
RKP5637
Dec 2012
#36
Meanwhile, the real standard of living for much of theAmerican & European middle-class has declined.
leveymg
Dec 2012
#45
We tried the Keynesian answer once, from about 1935-1975, but we're back in the same pickle again.
limpyhobbler
Dec 2012
#51
I have thought about a utopian type technological society, actually for a fictional
Cleita
Dec 2012
#153
I would like to nationalize all our natural resources as belonging to the people.
Cleita
Dec 2012
#155
We still would have to socialized medicine, education and other things made by man
Cleita
Dec 2012
#236
During the era of New Deal dominance, we used to call those things public goods
eridani
Dec 2012
#239
You mean the same China where factories put up nets to stop people from committing suicide?
white_wolf
Dec 2012
#58
A China where the PTB goes into a village, mows it down, puts up cheap apt houses, and forces the
Nay
Dec 2012
#121
"Capitalism has defeated Communism in Russia, and Democracy in the US." -Unknown
Fire Walk With Me
Dec 2012
#67
Most of the content of your post is largely about the Green Revolution...
Humanist_Activist
Dec 2012
#75
I just find his argument silly, if those non-profits did the capitalistic thing, those varieties...
Humanist_Activist
Dec 2012
#78
Yes, Capitalism is much better than Feudalism. And much worse than Socialism.
DireStrike
Dec 2012
#77
Have you noticed that none of these "socialist" revolutions were in heavily industrialized nations?
DireStrike
Dec 2012
#90
The basic thought that capital in a capitalist society has to concentrate in the hands of the few is
BrentWil
Dec 2012
#93
Your OP suffers from a general failure to define terms. Let's define 'capitalism' first and
coalition_unwilling
Dec 2012
#81
Slavery is not the problem. Slavery has improved the lives of millions.
Democracyinkind
Dec 2012
#82
Well, good luck to science in the endeavor of unmasking which material benefits
Democracyinkind
Dec 2012
#105
There Were Both Moral And Economic Arguments Against Slavery. They Weren't Mutually Exclusive.
DemocratSinceBirth
Dec 2012
#99
But Lincoln Saw Slavery Dying Out As A Result Of Its Own Contradictions
DemocratSinceBirth
Dec 2012
#97
See, Assassin's Creed doesn't bother me that much simply because it is clearly fictional.
white_wolf
Dec 2012
#211
Earlg and Elad will be surprised that their work product is simply a gov. project.
lumberjack_jeff
Dec 2012
#137
DU is a very well put together website, but isn't something that hasn't been done before.
white_wolf
Dec 2012
#138
Really there are plenty of bright people and many understand the problems.
Warren Stupidity
Dec 2012
#136
There's a world of difference between "trade" and "markets," and "Capitalism"
Scootaloo
Dec 2012
#157
"The comfort of the rich depends upon an abundant supply of the poor." Voltaire
Tierra_y_Libertad
Dec 2012
#163
In general I agree, but with two stipulations. First full participation is essential
1-Old-Man
Dec 2012
#167
Capitalism brought misery, cultural displacement and exile for numerous peoples.
MichaelMcGuire
Dec 2012
#200