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Peace Patriot

(24,010 posts)
43. LBJ slaughtered a million people in Southeast Asia AND passed the Civil Rights Act and...
Mon Dec 3, 2012, 03:20 PM
Dec 2012

...the Voting Rights Act, at great political cost, as well as other progressive legislation.

Do we call him a "monster"? Some would, I guess. But I don't. You could say that he only got the Civil Rights and Voting Rights Acts passed because he needed "cannon fodder." I don't. I think he believed in civil rights but the only way he could achieve it was by alliance with forces that DID want African-Americans as "cannon fodder" for Vietnam. I see a complex man, with some startlingly progressive instincts, superbly talented in one particular field--legislative pol--and trapped in a CIA-MIC spider's web and wrapped up good and properly by its sticky, deadly filaments*.

The trouble with this thread on Jefferson--and maybe it's a fault of American politics in general, or of the American people in general--is that we have no understanding of tragedy, at least in the political field. A "tragic hero" in the classical sense is a person of extraordinary virtue, talent or accomplishment--a brilliant person, a "great one"--who has a flaw--a blind spot, a weakness--that precipitates his or her downfall and often--as in "Hamlet"--the downfall and deaths of everybody around them, or--as in "Antigone"--the downfall of a high principle (the law, as upheld by Antigone in defiance of her king). More simply, a tragic hero is a good person, in the opinion of the society around them, caught in a vise of their own making or of society's making.

Tragedy is not bad things happening--car accidents, earthquakes. It has to do with HUMAN NATURE. With hubris, with ambition, with egotism, with blindness, with making mistakes, with doing wrong to do right, or being unable, because of circumstances, to follow the right course or even to determine what it is, despite noble efforts.

There are far more important matters to consider, in judging any person's life--including leaders and "great ones"--than, were they right or were they wrong? And it is a kind of enforced stupidity or enforced boredom to demand that everyone judge people that way. Instead, we should stand back a bit and ask, a) Would we have done any better?, and b) especially for historical figures, what personal history and social context formed their beliefs and actions and to what extent were they able to overcome these circumstances and see ANYTHING AT ALL outside of them, let alone envision anything better or act to produce anything better in the future?

And I would apply these questions in examining the lives of, say, a slave or a garment worker, as well as Thomas Jefferson, the tragic hero of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness," or Tom Paine (perhaps the most extraordinary individual in our history), or George Washington (the man who refused to be king), or anyone for whom there is some historical record (persons we can know about). Would we have done any better? What is the CONTEXT of their lives and actions?

As with the distance between Paris and Virginia in revolutionary times, the distance between Boston and Virginia was very great, if not in as many miles, certainly in psychology. They were two vastly different cultures--the one, in Boston, was building up to the incineration of young factory girls in locked-door slave labor conditions, while the one in Virginia was building up to the Civil War in bloody defense of its slave economy. Boston was to become the symbol of oligarchic fortunes built on the horrendous exploitation of labor and stultifying Puritanism and exclusionism. How dare we judge Boston as virtuous and Virginia as evil, or Boston's leaders as "the good guys" and Virginia's leaders as "the bad guys"?

We need to understand HUMAN NATURE and fight this PURITAN "judgement of God" bullshit in our culture, which consigns some to Heaven and some to Hell, in current situations as well as with hindsight. Thomas Jefferson's ownership of slaves did not mean that he could not ALSO believe in "the rights of man" and write about it with timeless eloquence in documents that, to this day, inspire people all over the world, and that laid the permanent foundation for religious and civil liberty everywhere. We need to understand that he did this AND was a slave holder. We need to really understand it--to grasp the excruciating contradictions and complexities of human life, and admire him for the one thing and condemn him for the other at the same time.

That is the glory of Annette Gordon Reed's book on the Hemingses. She NEVER reduces Jefferson to formulaic notions of what he should have done or should have been. She sees the whole human being IN CONTEXT, and does the same for Sally Hemings and her brothers, in a magnificent effort at creation and humanization, despite two centuries of obfuscation and bigotry between now and then.

Progress occurs by increments and is always furthered by FLAWED people. Look what happened to the revolution in France! Look what happened to the revolution in Russia! The members of "the masses" are not particularly admirable either. They, too--the slaves and the slave laborers--can be vastly unjust. They can be horrendously violent and bigoted. They can enslave, rob and murder each other. Yet both revolutions contributed to human progress--to ideas of what might be possible in a better world--despite their horrid flaws. So did ours--and our leaders did better than most, with no small contributions from slave holders.

Jefferson truly, genuinely longed for the liberation of the human race--and could not achieve it in his own household. I admire Jefferson for his dreams more than I admire Tom Paine for his clarity! Because Jefferson's dreams of liberty were not possible in his circumstances, yet there they are.

--------------------------


*(Re LBJ: Highly recommended, James Douglass' "JFK and the Unspeakable: Why He Died and Why It Matters." Douglass lays out the tragedy of Lyndon Baines Johnson (among other things), which had its origins in the assassination. Douglass, who wrote by far the best book on the Kennedy assassination, doesn't believe that LBJ was part of the assassination plot but that he was part of the coverup for complex reasons, including the CIA's misdirection to Russia in order to force his hand--as they had been unable to do to JFK--to nuke Russia in retaliation. He was also probably afraid of the CIA. Three days after the assassination, LBJ said, "Now they can have their war." He was speaking of the CIA and Vietnam. It was the alternative to nuking Russia! War, one way or another, but war there WOULD be. This brilliant leader who won one of the biggest presidential victories in our history on a platform of world peace, was caught like a wrapped up fly in the CIA-"military-industrial complex" spider's web. THAT is tragedy! COULD he have disentangled himself? No. That is what tragedy IS.)

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

The Monster of Monticello [View all] salvorhardin Dec 2012 OP
He had also included a clause in the DOI that stated that slavery should be abolished. The anti- sabrina 1 Dec 2012 #1
Jefferson was not the sole author of the Declaration of Independence salvorhardin Dec 2012 #3
The phrase "Life, Liberty and Le Taz Hot Dec 2012 #10
Life, liberty, and property was John Locke. Not Paine white_wolf Dec 2012 #31
Woops! Le Taz Hot Dec 2012 #35
Rather than a monster, I'd call him an amateur business man. SleeplessinSoCal Dec 2012 #2
That's what I keep saying about Nixon salvorhardin Dec 2012 #5
Given the science since Jefferson's time, wonder what he'd be saying today. SleeplessinSoCal Dec 2012 #23
Slavery Is All Wrong colsohlibgal Dec 2012 #4
He was a product of his times BernieO Dec 2012 #15
Jefferson's views on slavery are hypocritical to say the least. white_wolf Dec 2012 #6
Jefferson appears to have questioned whether African-Americans JDPriestly Dec 2012 #7
yet he found them human enough to arely staircase Dec 2012 #8
Yes, especially since there was no doubt about bestiality and pedophilia. KitSileya Dec 2012 #11
lots of compartmentalizing arely staircase Dec 2012 #18
He was utterly confused on this topic. JDPriestly Dec 2012 #22
He fathered children NOLALady Dec 2012 #27
after the revolution he specifically noted how profitable his slave operation was. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #12
....... when the love of money trumps all .... principles are just words .... MindMover Dec 2012 #26
Slavery was an evil that was a long standing aspect of Judeo-Christian religions and cultures. Zorra Dec 2012 #9
Washington was the only major planter among the seven Founding Fathers to emancipate his slaves. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #13
Wait, doesn't that mean that it was his wife, Martha, who freed his slaves after he died? Zorra Dec 2012 #44
They both had slaves which belonged to them personally. In his will GW directed that his be freed HiPointDem Dec 2012 #45
The best book on Jefferson was written by an African-American woman, Annette Gordon Reed. Peace Patriot Dec 2012 #14
"he did very poorly, financially, and died penniless" hedgehog Dec 2012 #21
living beyond his means was part of it, but he also had the misfortune to die during a long HiPointDem Dec 2012 #29
I read that book also. Sally Hemmings was a very interesting woman. jwirr Dec 2012 #24
according to jefferson, his nailery alone provided "completely for the maintenance" of his family. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #30
Sick systems make sick people Recursion Dec 2012 #16
Historical Context.. Ron Obvious Dec 2012 #17
Contemporary standards hedgehog Dec 2012 #19
John Adams was an exceptional man Ron Obvious Dec 2012 #37
Not the only one. Paine wanted to give women the right to vote as well. white_wolf Dec 2012 #38
Paine was another exceptional man... Ron Obvious Dec 2012 #41
Thomas Paine strongly oppossed slavery. white_wolf Dec 2012 #25
Others of his time knew it was wrong. NOLALady Dec 2012 #28
Exactly. That's why I can't buy that defense. Union Scribe Dec 2012 #39
From the Smithsonian Magazine hedgehog Dec 2012 #20
R#10 & K for, wow. n/t UTUSN Dec 2012 #32
John Adams did much of what Jefferson is given credit for melody Dec 2012 #33
Agreed Adams was a good President. He was honest and straight forward while Jefferson was devious. craigmatic Dec 2012 #36
Jefferson was a hypocrit along with most of the founding fathers which is why craigmatic Dec 2012 #34
Yep. Zinn forever changed my view of the revolutionary war Union Scribe Dec 2012 #40
I never read Zinn but it sounds like we agree on alot. The revolution was more of a coup than craigmatic Dec 2012 #42
LBJ slaughtered a million people in Southeast Asia AND passed the Civil Rights Act and... Peace Patriot Dec 2012 #43
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