General Discussion

Chathamization

(1,638 posts)

136. No.

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 04:26 PM

Dec 2012

This is easy. I'm not saying we should talk instead about women abusing men. I'm saying the problem with the statement you made is that it's dismissive of some forms of rape. The fact that you've continued to be dismissive of other forms of rape in your followups underscores this. I'm not even saying that we should be talking about other forms of rape here (though I do think several would be on topic), I'm saying we shouldn't make dismissive comments about certain kinds of rape in a topic about rape. And I don't think that comment should require a new topic. I'm not going to start a new topic just to say that I have a problem with a comment you made.

If you think that's disruptive, delegitimizes the conversation, or is incredibly off topic - well, we'll just have to disagree.

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The rape threads point to a larger need...revolutionary change in what it is to be "a man". [View all] Ken Burch Dec 2012 OP

I have a good place to start. A couple actually. Bonobo Dec 2012 #1

That's a good one...and it's within the power of men to do it. Ken Burch Dec 2012 #2

Ken, you are my hero. I had GREAT and GOOD men in my family on all sides roguevalley Dec 2012 #57

As a guy who has done a lot of things that many would call "manly" while in the military and stuff Victor_c3 Dec 2012 #3

Personally.... Bonobo Dec 2012 #4

I love your definition. smirkymonkey Dec 2012 #7

Great post TomClash Dec 2012 #11

Great post, thanks. Scuba Dec 2012 #20

love your story. sounds like human to me. seabeyond Dec 2012 #37

*Holds hand up as being descibed in paragraphs 1&3* Turborama Dec 2012 #10

I have worked at home for the last 18 years. Bonobo Dec 2012 #12

Wait, you agree with the op? Warren Stupidity Dec 2012 #29

I agree that men need and deserve to not have the restrictions that bind them. Bonobo Dec 2012 #36

I was quite explicit. The paragraph cited. Warren Stupidity Dec 2012 #45

If you understand it so well, restate it. Bonobo Dec 2012 #59

What decade are you living in? sufrommich Dec 2012 #31

japan.... nt seabeyond Dec 2012 #38

Japan is a country. NT EOTE Dec 2012 #116

Thank you Ken for your thoughtful post. smirkymonkey Dec 2012 #5

I love what you wrote. MadrasT Dec 2012 #6

Approve. WilliamPitt Dec 2012 #8

Unconvinced for two reasons Android3.14 Dec 2012 #9

How would you explain the high statistic in Sweden? leftstreet Dec 2012 #13

As British Prime Minister Disraeli once quipped, there are coalition_unwilling Dec 2012 #16

Exactly. Android3.14 Dec 2012 #18

You simply cannot compare these statistics so simplistically. redqueen Dec 2012 #26

I get that leftstreet Dec 2012 #28

I wish people would read Android3.14 Dec 2012 #50

Rape numbers have dropped every year since internet porn Eyes of the World Dec 2012 #14

Do you have any source for the numbers you so blithely toss about? - n/t coalition_unwilling Dec 2012 #19

Those numbers are SO popular. redqueen Dec 2012 #27

This is probably more accurate.... TheBlackAdder Dec 2012 #43

"fightthenewdrug" list, among their 'scientific' sources, James Dobson and Donald Hilton. Warren DeMontague Dec 2012 #85

Will you be refuting the information re: the altered definitions of rape? redqueen Dec 2012 #89

According to the DOJ, the forcible rape rate has decreased approx. 25% since the 1992 peak. Warren DeMontague Dec 2012 #109

Forcible rape, are you kidding me? Whisp Dec 2012 #131

It's from the US Department of Justice. Their wording, not mine. Warren DeMontague Dec 2012 #142

"the UCR Program changed its definition of rape." Cerridwen Dec 2012 #133

Right, the definition was changed in 2011. The data reflects the old definition. Warren DeMontague Dec 2012 #140

Any article using that leaderu crap as a source is extremely tainted, imo... Violet_Crumble Dec 2012 #147

But rape is an issue about power. CTyankee Dec 2012 #22

Interesting theory....but... 2theleft Dec 2012 #24

the decline can also be the concerted effort of police force across the nation to downgrade rapes seabeyond Dec 2012 #40

yeah, no one has found a correlation. except for lonely teenaged boys, LOL. bettyellen Dec 2012 #55

For that to work, statistically, this would have to be a uniform concerted effort that has gotten Warren DeMontague Dec 2012 #118

yes and you can find documention starting in the 90's. i have provided it so many times seabeyond Dec 2012 #123

You have provided it... Where? Warren DeMontague Dec 2012 #124

you don't want to do something about the 25% of your friends and family that will be raped? bettyellen Dec 2012 #53

There's correlation there, but not necessarily causation. Ken Burch Dec 2012 #67

So we take away porn and men turn into rapists? ismnotwasm Dec 2012 #119

Nope. Porn doesnt prevent rape. Porn also doesnt CAUSE rape. Warren DeMontague Dec 2012 #126

Historically, the methods for doing so was castration FarCenter Dec 2012 #15

People are going to jump on you for pointing this out Renew Deal Dec 2012 #17

"witch hunts"? CTyankee Dec 2012 #25

My original message wasn't worded properly Renew Deal Dec 2012 #64

My OP didn't call for a war against men. Ken Burch Dec 2012 #68

But see. these posts are a reaction to crazy ideas in their heads...LOL.. now I'm wanting to deprive bettyellen Dec 2012 #74

we really cannot escape the fact that rape is 98% done by men. and we won't STFU because this bettyellen Dec 2012 #56

I'm not sure who you are referring to. Renew Deal Dec 2012 #63

I was referring to the witch hunt bullshit bettyellen Dec 2012 #71

Here's the problem with that Chathamization Dec 2012 #86

You can feel free to advocate for violence against men. BUT bettyellen Dec 2012 #90

Sorry, but Chathamization Dec 2012 #91

Sorry this OP is about lessening the violence men do. Just as the thread bettyellen Dec 2012 #93

"My issue" Chathamization Dec 2012 #105

You're issue was we're unfair to the small percentage of men who are victims because we bettyellen Dec 2012 #117

I took issue with your statement Chathamization Dec 2012 #122

You'd like to talk instead about women abusing men and its OT bettyellen Dec 2012 #135

No. Chathamization Dec 2012 #136

The original "witch hunts" actually led to men(often churchmen) having women burned to death. Ken Burch Dec 2012 #72

There have never been 'revolutionary' changes in human behavior. randome Dec 2012 #21

Women were essentially property until the end of the 19th century. Warren Stupidity Dec 2012 #30

Women still are property in a significant part of the world, and they rely on men elsewhere FarCenter Dec 2012 #34

Oh absolutely, and in many areas women's rights are diminishing. Warren Stupidity Dec 2012 #47

I meant 'revolutionary' in the sense of speed. randome Dec 2012 #39

The period of time: 1950-1980 not fast enough? Warren Stupidity Dec 2012 #48

Thirty years is fast enough in an historical context. randome Dec 2012 #49

"revolutionary" doesn't have to mean instant. Ken Burch Dec 2012 #69

Ken, at the risk of sounding like one of those doctrinaire Soviets, I would argue that coalition_unwilling Dec 2012 #23

Changing masculinity can, in fact, be part of the process of changing the system of exploitation. Ken Burch Dec 2012 #70

A beautiful and evocative description of dialectics (where superstructure coalition_unwilling Dec 2012 #84

I think that it needs to be EVOLUTIONARY, ie BlueToTheBone Dec 2012 #32

Agree. bemildred Dec 2012 #33

K&R! Odin2005 Dec 2012 #35

love your post. it is easy in the parenting. no one looses. it is win, win, win seabeyond Dec 2012 #41

Great post, especially this: raccoon Dec 2012 #42

the fixation with winning and dominance at any cost is displayed in most posts attempting to quell bettyellen Dec 2012 #61

"It's on us men"? Okay, well here's the starting point: award child custody to fathers. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #44

why are all the man posts advocating for more for them, LOL. Porn, custody rights... bettyellen Dec 2012 #54

Are you saying award full custody to fathers? In all cases? Ken Burch Dec 2012 #79

Great post! Zorra Dec 2012 #46

At risk of being called misygonist jimlup Dec 2012 #51

The question of why false accusations of rape are occasionally made Ken Burch Dec 2012 #78

Trust me it does jimlup Dec 2012 #88

Wow- you suggest women who were raped should "get over it" because your wife did? bettyellen Dec 2012 #94

my wife was "raped" sufrommich Dec 2012 #95

Repulsive to suggest women should get over it bettyellen Dec 2012 #96

God ismnotwasm Dec 2012 #121

You put "rape" in scare quotes obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #97

There is so much wrong with this post that I don't know where to begin. Marrah_G Dec 2012 #100

But it's not a TOS violation because misogynistic crap bettyellen Dec 2012 #101

I alerted, it was allowed to stand 4-2. sufrommich Dec 2012 #102

MRA buddy, damn straight the MRA will tell us women false claim rape 45-75%, those.... right? seabeyond Dec 2012 #103

+ 100000. nt sufrommich Dec 2012 #104

I was sexually molested when I was six lunatica Dec 2012 #106

I just feel like crying right now. sufrommich Dec 2012 #108

Todd Akin posts at DU apparently, hence the "legitimate rape" geek tragedy Dec 2012 #111

Trust me, if you have been raped you don't forget it, Ms. Toad Dec 2012 #112

Cool story, bro Democracyinkind Dec 2012 #114

how come no response to all the replies?? quinnox Dec 2012 #115

What a repulsive post. Odin2005 Dec 2012 #127

There are not "good" rape victims and "bad" rape victims. noamnety Dec 2012 #128

Your wife must be in hell. You make me want to puke out my lungs. CoffeeCat Dec 2012 #130

Why on Earth should we "trust" you and your "personal experience"? Heidi Dec 2012 #134

As I expected... I've been accused of Misgyony simple for expression my position. jimlup Dec 2012 #137

Oh no. You're guilty of much worse than misogyny. yardwork Dec 2012 #139

This is one of the worst things I've read on DU. Really? yardwork Dec 2012 #138

It's disturbing that you put the word "raped" in quote marks. Ken Burch Dec 2012 #143

Your post is an outrage and I alerted on it Tumbulu Dec 2012 #146

No, you get labeled a misogynist because you are a Todd Akin-style geek tragedy Dec 2012 #113

Perhaps, as a woman, s-cubed Dec 2012 #52

super enlightening comments after this blog post about how difficult friends and SOs can find it bettyellen Dec 2012 #58

I agree agent46 Dec 2012 #60

Not a man here either but K&R Tsiyu Dec 2012 #62

We can get at the cultural norm where "strength" = "ruthless brutality." DirkGently Dec 2012 #65

I never actually read the original post that seems to have started all this. Ken Burch Dec 2012 #66

some mens got upset that we feel more than the victims need education.... bettyellen Dec 2012 #73

I just think the meme is based on a dishonest premise. DirkGently Dec 2012 #75

Um... plenty here think "the onus of rape prevention should be on women" but you missed all that. bettyellen Dec 2012 #80

Well said marions ghost Dec 2012 #87

Rape is an emotional response. flvegan Dec 2012 #76

I think it's also a reaction to a sense of powerlessness, among other things Ken Burch Dec 2012 #77

No it isn't -- that is blaming the victim obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #98

Not blaming the victim at all...it's wrong to victimize anyone. Ken Burch Dec 2012 #144

Sorry ... I think your are missing the point The Traveler Dec 2012 #81

Actually, you're missing the point. KitSileya Dec 2012 #83

Great post. nt raccoon Dec 2012 #132

Very good tama Dec 2012 #82

Rape is the fault and responsibility of white cis gender hetrosexuals!! nt cecilfirefox Dec 2012 #92

Sociopaths rape obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #99

Thanks for posting this subject lunatica Dec 2012 #107

kicking to read Shankapotomus Dec 2012 #110

This is such a great post that really speaks the truth. I wish I could recommend it a million times LiberalLoner Dec 2012 #120

Men are victims of anti-feminism too lbrtbell Dec 2012 #125

Excellent post, Ken. Blue_In_AK Dec 2012 #129

society doesn't prize those things only in men, it prizes them *period,* in all things. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #141

Society prizes agressive women? I just peed myself!!!! bettyellen Dec 2012 #145