General Discussion

The Doctor.

(17,266 posts)

266. That's six of one,

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 06:53 PM

Dec 2012

and a half-dozen of the other.

Our 'culture' also leads us to presume the accused rapists are guilty before proven anything at all. Our 'culture', for as much as it ignores the complaints of rape also pursues them rabidly and destructively. Our 'culture' lets women get away with murder if they claim self-defense, but doesn't care much at all if she's in an abusive relationship.

I don't have to read the article to understand the words in the OP.

Our culture is too complex to reduce this particular issue to 'probability'. In different circumstances, one man might 'get away' with committing rape while another spends a decade in jail because of false accusations. Men and women, people victimize each-other every day. Neither gender is more or less evil than the other. I believe in equality like that... and I've seen it play out.

My point is my point: 'Culture' is born out of human evolutionary nature no matter how we look at it. It came from our struggle to survive, evolve, and make sense of the whole damn thing. I think at some level we recognize that no one holds exclusive rights to victimhood.

As for your statement: "Nobody is arguing that culture "creates rapists". ", saying that 'allowing' rapists rather than 'creating' them is pretty much an admission of nature being the overriding motive.

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Meet the Predators (men need to learn how to recognize and fight rape culture) [View all] redqueen Nov 2012 OP

one self kick redqueen Nov 2012 #1

Well worth the read leftstreet Nov 2012 #2

Yes, they will self-report. They will not use the word rape, but they will. redqueen Nov 2012 #3

Powerful, informative post! Highly recommend this one riderinthestorm Nov 2012 #4

It really is. redqueen Nov 2012 #7

acceptance=complicity sigmasix Nov 2012 #5

Thanks. redqueen Nov 2012 #16

It's so good to have it broken down like this ismnotwasm Nov 2012 #6

count me in sigmasix Nov 2012 #9

It is individuals, not 'culture'. The Doctor. Nov 2012 #8

I could say 'the ubiquitous aspects of human culture which enable rapists and the epidemic of redqueen Nov 2012 #13

Rape is illegal. The Doctor. Nov 2012 #25

Based on first hand experience- half the Fraternities at Rutgers bettyellen Nov 2012 #28

You cannot be serious Tsiyu Dec 2012 #54

*BRAVO* bettyellen Dec 2012 #57

Part of me is so disgusted with these posts Tsiyu Dec 2012 #59

It's about their ego.... So much so they need to deny the reality and the import bettyellen Dec 2012 #60

See my post to your "perfect" friend below ;) Tsiyu Dec 2012 #62

Perfect reply- this knee jerk defensive stuff has got to go. bettyellen Dec 2012 #63

Partly true. 92-96% of men are heavily invested in the fact that they're not rapists. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #180

i explained and ee discussed with my 15 and 17 yr old sons, and hubby. seabeyond Dec 2012 #187

so much so, they absolutely refuse to listen or to help women out, I know. So sad their egos get the bettyellen Dec 2012 #214

Nearly 100% of women fear being raped. boston bean Dec 2012 #217

Yep... trumad Dec 2012 #191

Oh yeah, Tsiyu Dec 2012 #195

i do not define myself as a gender and love so many of them men on du.... and i dont stay out of the seabeyond Dec 2012 #199

They are the joy of my life Tsiyu Dec 2012 #206

sigh.... lol, seabeyond Dec 2012 #210

good luck to your boy Tsiyu Dec 2012 #212

I agree with everything you said, especially this part: steve2470 Dec 2012 #94

Thank you steve2470 Tsiyu Dec 2012 #168

It's like not tolerating racism Lydia Leftcoast Dec 2012 #250

Yes, and chances are most men on DU do not Tsiyu Dec 2012 #251

I am serious. Rape is illegal. The Doctor. Dec 2012 #256

If the state can convince a jury. nt Deep13 Dec 2012 #235

Actually it is "culture" because acceptable sexism and "rights of women" or lack there of... vaberella Dec 2012 #143

So you're using examples from decades in the past to describe the present? The Doctor. Dec 2012 #270

individuals are constructed by their culture. Deep13 Dec 2012 #234

When the evolution is literally millions of times older than culture, The Doctor. Dec 2012 #257

pretty much. Deep13 Dec 2012 #258

I get that it can be self-reinforcing, The Doctor. Dec 2012 #259

Well, yeah, the evolution of humanity... Deep13 Dec 2012 #264

You didn't read the article Hippo_Tron Dec 2012 #262

That's six of one, The Doctor. Dec 2012 #266

Nature is the overriding motive Hippo_Tron Dec 2012 #267

Our culture says otherwise. The Doctor. Dec 2012 #268

Great post! MineralMan Nov 2012 #10

If everyone would do that redqueen Nov 2012 #18

Excellent article, and an excellent post! thucythucy Nov 2012 #11

Me too... redqueen Nov 2012 #19

Excellent post. This needs to be on the front page. geardaddy Nov 2012 #12

Thanks. redqueen Nov 2012 #21

Kicked and recommended. Uncle Joe Nov 2012 #14

Very important piece caraher Nov 2012 #15

Actually... slutticus Nov 2012 #17

Kicked n/t Helen Reddy Nov 2012 #20

"The rapists can’t be your friends, and..." That is where this runs off the tracks. ieoeja Nov 2012 #22

Thank you so much for posting this etherealtruth Nov 2012 #23

Good read. Hayabusa Nov 2012 #24

Rec. Good article JohnnyLib2 Nov 2012 #26

Sorry, but most men have literally ZERO to do with this "rape culture" of which the author speaks TeamsterDem Nov 2012 #27

If you're in some sort of ivory tower where you e not been exposed to this bettyellen Nov 2012 #29

haha speaking of bruised egos and what not, might wanna reread your frothing response TeamsterDem Nov 2012 #30

Sorry to say you've made your own personal feelings bettyellen Nov 2012 #31

Things seen and experienced are also personal events, yeah? TeamsterDem Nov 2012 #32

No one anywhere said the majority of men participate in this bettyellen Nov 2012 #33

It is in the fucking OP: 4-8% of men are responsible for the vast majority of rapes. nt redqueen Nov 2012 #36

He's just trolling to derail...... bettyellen Nov 2012 #39

Yeah. How dare we consider the epidemic levels of sexual violene as more important redqueen Nov 2012 #40

Sometimes my refined sensibilities get hurt too bettyellen Nov 2012 #41

What a hypocrite TeamsterDem Nov 2012 #46

For you to claim you "never heard a rape joke" Tsiyu Dec 2012 #61

First of all, you have no idea what my experiences are TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #81

I think you're full of shit Tsiyu Dec 2012 #84

You ever been through either? TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #89

My SIL was in the Marines and has a few tales to tell... Tsiyu Dec 2012 #90

Ah, so you've never PERSONALLY done the things you claim to know so well, then TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #92

Wow, keep digging that hole Tsiyu Dec 2012 #100

You really can't read, can you? TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #106

I have defended men many, many times on DU Tsiyu Dec 2012 #113

Nope, not the life of a monk. Never said that, never implied it TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #118

This is absolutely hilarious Tsiyu Dec 2012 #127

Reading Comprehension 101 TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #130

Thank you for hijacking the thread Tsiyu Dec 2012 #136

Whew, now there is an adult response. My goodness such maturity TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #140

Do you feel better? Tsiyu Dec 2012 #144

Oh my. It continues! Well, I guess children's tantrums do tend to wear on TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #147

keep digging, oh glorious offended one Tsiyu Dec 2012 #155

Actually, I've said none of those things TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #162

You have indeed said it's "not your problem" Tsiyu Dec 2012 #173

Please point me to my quote where I said it's not my problem. If you can't, admit you're lying TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #176

By saying the blog in no way applies to you in Tsiyu Dec 2012 #188

Does contorting yourself so strenuously cause physical pain? TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #192

Your own words Tsiyu Dec 2012 #197

Oh my sweet Jesus, just when I thought you couldn't possibly get any dumber you went and did TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #204

My friends on DU are getting a kick out of it Tsiyu Dec 2012 #207

Mine too! Isn't that cool? TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #216

AMAZING!!!!!! Tsiyu Dec 2012 #221

At the least you've had a sheltered life. nomorenomore08 Dec 2012 #91

Nothing sheltered about it TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #101

I'm not calling you a liar. I just said your account of things seemed overly defensive. nomorenomore08 Dec 2012 #139

What in the world are you talking about? What insinuation? TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #145

You've been putting words in other people's mouths this entire thread. nomorenomore08 Dec 2012 #149

Where, exactly? Just saying it more than once doesn't make it so. nt TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #154

It's VAIN, not vein.. And it's ironic you wouldn't know that, LOL. bettyellen Dec 2012 #161

oooh a spelling error. you really got me with that one! kudos. nt TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #163

I wonder if either of you realize how offensive your attitudes are TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #48

Not only are you not discriminating or raping.... bettyellen Dec 2012 #58

Do you have difficulty reading written words? You keep saying I said something that I didn't TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #65

It says right in the article that a small percentage of men are rapists, Quantess Dec 2012 #75

The OP also says "men need lessons" as if we're a bunch of idiots who don't know already that rape TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #77

This isn't about you, though. Quantess Dec 2012 #80

You're seeing something that isn't there, I'm afraid TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #86

I think your idea of "getting rid of sexism" is somewhat misguided. nomorenomore08 Dec 2012 #93

Well, that's not quite right either TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #103

Well if you really want to be honest about the world, you can't always use perfectly polite language nomorenomore08 Dec 2012 #108

I'm not sure I know what that means TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #124

You claim you purposely avoid awful misogynist men-also that you've never seen or heard misogynist bettyellen Dec 2012 #172

No, I said I avoid types which might turn out to be bad acquaintances later on TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #175

you jumped the shark a while ago. but you go double down if your ego needs it so badly. bettyellen Dec 2012 #179

As I don't buy your pompous judgments of others, nor will I cede an argument I believe in TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #184

wow, thanks for allowing me to have my own opinion without the threat of PM stalking, LOL. bettyellen Dec 2012 #190

Does that pass for wit in your circles? Or is it pretty much seen as every bit as pathetic as it is TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #194

No, you're engaging in stereotyping by supporting someone who said "men need education" TeamsterDem Nov 2012 #45

You claim you're completely ignorant that misogynistic behavior happens, but are bettyellen Dec 2012 #53

Maybe if I type more slowly you'll comprehend it better? TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #66

Sometimes I think DU's biggest problem of all, is people's compulsive need to engage in sophistry. nomorenomore08 Dec 2012 #83

That assumes you know my motivations TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #88

It's just a pervasive pattern I've noticed. Nothing personal, really. nomorenomore08 Dec 2012 #102

hehe I don't disagree with your assessment of the net TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #120

Gee mercuryblues Nov 2012 #42

First off, stow the attitude TeamsterDem Nov 2012 #44

thanks for telling me what mercuryblues Dec 2012 #50

It's a shame that some men think that way TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #69

why do men need to be educated? mercuryblues Dec 2012 #202

It most certainly IS NOT the culture despite the fact that unfortunately it does happen TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #215

DERP-you think there's just one single culture of men out there? Every school,company,neighborhood bettyellen Dec 2012 #237

oh my mercuryblues Dec 2012 #238

You are so self-righteous Tsiyu Dec 2012 #64

Back atcha TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #67

If I say "all men need to eat to stay alive" Tsiyu Dec 2012 #71

I see you completely ignored my point TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #72

Blah blah blah Tsiyu Dec 2012 #73

Just gonna slam your fingers in your ears and whine like a child then, eh? TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #76

LOL Tsiyu Dec 2012 #82

Wow, how very childish of you TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #87

You're adorable, really Tsiyu Dec 2012 #95

What I'm saying, sport, for about the 50th time TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #111

You are the one acting like a misogynist but you don't want to be called on it Tsiyu Dec 2012 #119

For reference, I didn't call you childish because you're female, I did so because it's the truth TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #123

Derailing a conversation and making it about YOU, the MALE Tsiyu Dec 2012 #132

I didn't make the topic about males, the OP did that by saying "men need to learn" TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #137

I wouldn't call you a misogynist, but you do seem to be belittling the subject of misogyny. nomorenomore08 Dec 2012 #135

Show me one example where I stereotyped anyone or put words in their mouths TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #141

I think the point is you've been SEVERELY OVERREACTING this whole time. nomorenomore08 Dec 2012 #133

Ahh yes, everyone who takes offense at being stereotyped is always overreacting and emotional TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #170

All women need... letemrot Dec 2012 #97

The point is that if ALL men Tsiyu Dec 2012 #104

How do you know most men do not act in letemrot Dec 2012 #107

Once again, you poor, poor man Tsiyu Dec 2012 #115

what is so mercuryblues Dec 2012 #242

Of course letemrot Dec 2012 #112

I just re-read the entire blog Tsiyu Dec 2012 #129

exactly. that's exactly my point. nt TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #125

If it's only "an opinion" then why are your posts so damn long? nomorenomore08 Dec 2012 #126

no, I didn't "admit" that I'm "least affected" by the issue at hand TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #131

But you made this thread ALL ABOUT your hurt feelings. nomorenomore08 Dec 2012 #146

Friend, take a look at the title of the thread TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #148

The point is you threw a fit about "stereotyping" in the midst of a thread nomorenomore08 Dec 2012 #151

No, in a thread about men's attitudes towards rape I both gave my own attitude TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #156

Your *whole argument* is a strawman. Again, *no one* on this thread is lumping all men together nomorenomore08 Dec 2012 #159

"men need to learn" with reference to not supporting rape is the very definition TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #164

So this is all about... sigh... FOUR FUCKING WORDS??? nomorenomore08 Dec 2012 #169

Jesus, I suggest you reread what you've written to me TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #171

Funny, the blog was written by a man Tsiyu Dec 2012 #231

"Stow the attitude"? Considering what she just described, that's a really self-centered post. nomorenomore08 Dec 2012 #122

I didn't cause their suffering or misfortune, thus I don't deserve the attitude for it TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #128

It just wasn't the thing to say right at that moment. Came off as insensitive. nomorenomore08 Dec 2012 #160

Tough. I don't owe anyone niceties or sensitivity. I do owe them the truth and that's what I've TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #167

The truth about an ex frat boy marine who's heard nary a misogynist word spoken his whole life? bettyellen Dec 2012 #174

Dear Lord. You can't be that dense, can you? TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #178

LOL, your reply is about how you successfully stereotype people who "look" misogynist? Ha ha. bettyellen Dec 2012 #181

Uh, making judgments about who you want to be friends with based on their attitudes TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #185

yeah, mercuryblues Dec 2012 #249

Human behavior isn't divided into black-and-white categories. It's a CONTIUUM. nomorenomore08 Dec 2012 #79

Who said I was "squeaky clean?" TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #85

"Who said I was 'squeaky clean'"? You just gave an exaggerated impression of such, that's all. nomorenomore08 Dec 2012 #99

+100000 Tsiyu Dec 2012 #109

Like I said, it's sophistry. Arguing for the sake of arguing. nomorenomore08 Dec 2012 #117

It's pretty darned offensive to me Tsiyu Dec 2012 #142

Uh, saying I haven't hung around with rapists is hardly giving an impression of prudishness TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #114

I'm sorry, I *still* don't see where they're "stereotyping all men." nomorenomore08 Dec 2012 #116

Yes, it is serious. Your taxonomy of the degrees of offense doesn't diminish what others feel TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #134

How is being "stereotyped" anywhere near as serious as being fucking RAPED??? nomorenomore08 Dec 2012 #153

I couldn't give two shits about you being angry TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #165

Maybe not such an unreasonable post, but it comes off as awfully self-centered. nomorenomore08 Dec 2012 #74

The holier-than-thou part was intentional as I find it holier-than-thou that TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #78

Again, why so defensive? It seems completely out proportion to any potential harm done you. nomorenomore08 Dec 2012 #110

The funny part is that you seem to firmly believe that I'm upset TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #152

You just contradicted yourself. Either this stuff is serious and important, or it's not. nomorenomore08 Dec 2012 #157

Man you're either dim or intentionally obtuse to a degree I've never seen before TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #166

and either he's seen not one bit of misogyny in his whole life, or he's worked to avoid associating bettyellen Dec 2012 #177

No, that's not what I claimed TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #182

I've seen good men completely miss the boat on this shit bettyellen Nov 2012 #34

Oh we have seen plenty if it here. redqueen Nov 2012 #35

If you're not saying majority then stop using the universal word "men" which means all of them TeamsterDem Nov 2012 #47

I know, that galls me too every time I see it. polly7 Dec 2012 #49

Where did any woman here say the majority of men were potential rapists? bettyellen Dec 2012 #52

Really?? polly7 Dec 2012 #55

I'm saying these particular men's FALSE claims of broad brushing bettyellen Dec 2012 #56

You are supporting someone who hijacked this thread for their own Tsiyu Dec 2012 #150

It's not so much about you. More about the poster who took over this whole thread nomorenomore08 Dec 2012 #158

Very well said TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #68

WTF- I said some good men.... Then addressed the dudes with BS ops bettyellen Dec 2012 #51

It wasn't in reference to that particular post, rather to the broader theme TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #70

i have often found your "rape culture" posts to be accusatory and offensive arely staircase Nov 2012 #37

Well thank fucking goddess a man finally said it nicely enough. nt redqueen Nov 2012 #38

K&R JoeyT Nov 2012 #43

k&r nt steve2470 Dec 2012 #96

These rape threads make DU feminists look petty Eyes of the World Dec 2012 #98

Not as petty as some of the responses on this thread (not necessarily yours). Just saying... nomorenomore08 Dec 2012 #105

thanks for the sanity and honest take on things bettyellen Dec 2012 #186

I'm beginning mercuryblues Dec 2012 #239

I'm beginning to think you are right too.... One warning sign it took me a while to learn bettyellen Dec 2012 #240

the sad part is mercuryblues Dec 2012 #243

oh, they'd find another excuse to take over the conversation..... bettyellen Dec 2012 #244

Rape is not a petty issue Tsiyu Dec 2012 #200

We have rape culture proponents right here at DU, men who post stuff like this: geek tragedy Dec 2012 #260

Please provide your honest reaction to this language: geek tragedy Dec 2012 #261

Discussing rape makes feminists look petty? obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #269

After reading this op and the responses I find myself thinking of what happens when retread Dec 2012 #121

Nicely put. nt redqueen Dec 2012 #183

very apt. i like. nt seabeyond Dec 2012 #189

+1, thanks. nt. Mc Mike Dec 2012 #138

This particular thread Helen Reddy Dec 2012 #193

People insisting upon fair treatment are often "cacophonous" and seen as "rigid" TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #196

What would be "FAIR" sir, Helen Reddy Dec 2012 #198

I agree. That would be more than fair, it'd be human. And about past time that they do, too. nt TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #205

You're seriously calling the author of this blog post a bigot? redqueen Dec 2012 #203

he read the blog post all wrong and just cannot admit it. bettyellen Dec 2012 #209

Nope, read it just as it's written TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #219

Post removed Post removed Dec 2012 #218

No reason to be unnerve. Springslips Dec 2012 #220

Re: pinging redqueen Dec 2012 #223

it makes me think of my cousin, I remember how he'd have people wincing with some of the nasty shit bettyellen Dec 2012 #230

but you see, many guys will argue that the pocket of culture you stumbled upon doesn't exist at all bettyellen Dec 2012 #226

I think the pinging is insecurity Prism Dec 2012 #236

Okay, I hate rapists... Deep13 Dec 2012 #233

In spite of the fact that only 4-8% of men rape, CrispyQ Dec 2012 #201

One male 'genius' on DU said since he didn't personally think that women felt any more fear than men redqueen Dec 2012 #208

hey redqueen Tsiyu Dec 2012 #211

Thank you, Tsiyu. redqueen Dec 2012 #213

There are some awesomely great guys upthread, though Tsiyu Dec 2012 #225

Yeah, a lot of awesome male allies... and some new ones too. redqueen Dec 2012 #232

And thank YOU, Tsiyu thucythucy Dec 2012 #253

... Tsiyu Dec 2012 #255

I guess we need a new article too "Meet the Pettifoggers"-- Starry Messenger Dec 2012 #222

lol Tsiyu Dec 2012 #227

Beauty! MotherPetrie Dec 2012 #228

K&R stevenleser Dec 2012 #224

what about relatives? Deep13 Dec 2012 #229

Family is tricky. I'd base my reactions around his current situation. Is he still having exploitive bettyellen Dec 2012 #241

Well,... Deep13 Dec 2012 #245

well, it sounds like he's a run of the mill asshole. bettyellen Dec 2012 #246

Good for you! Deep13 Dec 2012 #247

yep, assholes drag everyone into their messy lives one way or another if you let them bettyellen Dec 2012 #248

Thank you again, Redqueen, for this excellent thucythucy Dec 2012 #252

The thread is mercuryblues Dec 2012 #254

One thing I'd ask, don't women have just as much of a responsibility to combat it too? Hippo_Tron Dec 2012 #263

Yes, rape culture is fueled by both women and men gollygee Dec 2012 #265