General Discussion

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)

167. oh good lord yes, sooo many posts insisting unless you get the wording *perfect* and make sure

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 05:18 PM

Dec 2012

you don't say this or that.... you're hurting, stereotyping, trying to deprive them of civil rights or calling them idiots for promoting education.

The list of demands on HOW we talk about it is so great, you realize *some of them* are not going to ever allow the conversation to happen. I have never in my life seen so many anti- education, anti awareness and anti-activist posts in my life. It seems incredibly threatening for men to talk about the subject at all. They seem to equate requests for help with blame. It's troubling. But it starts with picking apart our words and being hyper critical instead of listening. Some men need it explained we're not blaming them ALL. We're not man hating monolithic feminazis any more than they are all rape apologists.

But one on one this happens too, a lot of women have difficulty sharing their experiences with loved ones because talking about acquaintance rape is rocking the boat, causing drama, causing doubts (because it;s not violent stranger rape- which guys find easier to handle/ believe) we're telling you something AWFUL about someone who is likely an acquaintance, friend or family member. Men forget it was IMPOSSIBLE for us to believe that guy would do something like that too- before it happened. This is why (the rarer) stranger rape is more frequently reported. People are less likely to blame you, and much more likely to believe you and help you. With the majority of rape, the pressure to keep your mouth shut comes from all sides.

I think sometimes guys get the idea that beating the crap out of someone is what we want, or what "real men" would do. But most women don;t want to "cause more trouble" and again, they don't tell men because they fear more fallout.
So, altogether there is way too much bending over back wards. It would be helpful if men knew we want them to listen and support. Many need to learn to listen without putting their own ego first. Even progressive guys can find it a stumbling block.

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A bit about "potential rapists". [View all] JoeyT Dec 2012 OP

Nice analysis Xipe Totec Dec 2012 #1

+1,000 Fridays Child Dec 2012 #2

Great post. Thank you. n/t TDale313 Dec 2012 #3

Awesome analysis. Wish I could rec this thread to the high heavens and hope coalition_unwilling Dec 2012 #4

One could feel similar in the hood where I live when a person of color approaches them The Straight Story Dec 2012 #5

Based on my experience I'd only worry about white people as far as theft goes gollygee Dec 2012 #7

The stereotype of the thief being a lowlife black or white from a poor socio-economic Rozlee Dec 2012 #8

That's true too gollygee Dec 2012 #9

It's the crimes they want us to notice that they go after. Pay no attention to that man behind the Dark n Stormy Knight Dec 2012 #56

See posts 8, 22, 25, and redqueen Dec 2012 #36

Stupid analogy. Men are the only people who will rape a woman. geek tragedy Dec 2012 #75

This depends on whether you're talking about the population at large Rozlee Dec 2012 #87

I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm saying it's MUCH less likely for a woman geek tragedy Dec 2012 #90

I updated my post but you're right. Rozlee Dec 2012 #98

k&r Starry Messenger Dec 2012 #6

You can extend this without it being insulting even Hydra Dec 2012 #10

Wow. What a constrained mindset. Romulox Dec 2012 #16

Sounds more like snark Fumesucker Dec 2012 #24

No snark involved Hydra Dec 2012 #32

Yes, I do have PSTD, thanks for mentioning it Hydra Dec 2012 #31

Absolutely not. Dark n Stormy Knight Dec 2012 #57

Thank you for that~ Hydra Dec 2012 #67

PTSD means that your reactions are not necessarily to the present stimulus, but perhaps an earlier Romulox Dec 2012 #64

Just because you're paranoid and all that... Moonwalk Dec 2012 #70

He said he suffers from PTSD. That's what "PTSD" means. It's definitional. Romulox Dec 2012 #71

I'm saying that you're taking his PTSD as evidence that everything he says he does... Moonwalk Dec 2012 #86

No. I am saying what is in my posts. I will not refute things I didn't say, like "delusional". Romulox Dec 2012 #88

Oh, glad you finally got to the point Hydra Dec 2012 #103

YOU mentioned cyclists and salespeople as "threats" on a discussion about *rape*. Romulox Dec 2012 #105

Not my fault if you took what I said and decided to downplay/read into it Hydra Dec 2012 #108

PSTD is not much of a protection in my case Hydra Dec 2012 #85

You've been attacked by people on bikes, and salespeople? That's who you mentioned as threats. Romulox Dec 2012 #93

Why should I go into the more ugly stuff Hydra Dec 2012 #100

Honestly, I think fumesucker had it right. I should have listened. nt Romulox Dec 2012 #101

PTSD doesn't make every perceived threat imaginary, as I'm sure you know. Dark n Stormy Knight Dec 2012 #193

He mentions cyclists and salespeople as "threats" in question. I doubt his sincerity. nt Romulox Dec 2012 #194

No. I think I understand just what he means. If you can't understand it, consider yourself lucky. Dark n Stormy Knight Dec 2012 #195

Really? you think it's the same? Marrah_G Dec 2012 #197

I do, and I think it should be considered "due caution" rather than Hydra Dec 2012 #198

No not really Marrah_G Dec 2012 #199

Probably so Hydra Dec 2012 #200

The best way I can explain it is this: Marrah_G Dec 2012 #203

very well said SemperEadem Dec 2012 #11

so well put, I am very appreciative you took the time to write this. n/t Whisp Dec 2012 #12

when a strange man, woman or child approaches me I have no idea whether they are HiPointDem Dec 2012 #13

The slope is less slippery than you'd think. JoeyT Dec 2012 #28

well, if white people are more likely to be victims of white people, there you go! HiPointDem Dec 2012 #30

Oh Jesus, poor oppressed men who whine because women have to live in fear of being raped. geek tragedy Dec 2012 #76

psst: i'm a woman HiPointDem Dec 2012 #143

Interesting. SheilaT Dec 2012 #14

There's a nugget of cognitive dissonance that just can't be overcome.. X_Digger Dec 2012 #15

It isn't even difficult to overcome. JoeyT Dec 2012 #25

Umm.. wha huh? X_Digger Dec 2012 #29

Are you really that stupid as to suggest its immoral discrimination to view men as more geek tragedy Dec 2012 #82

I make no value judgement either way. X_Digger Dec 2012 #94

Well, you're acting like it's discrimination to acknowledge a fact known to every geek tragedy Dec 2012 #95

By definition, it is discrimination- "Recognize a distinction; differentiate." n/t X_Digger Dec 2012 #99

In the sense that hiring smart people to work at accounting firm geek tragedy Dec 2012 #102

Arguing whether it's valid or invalid, justifiable or irrational- is another discussion. X_Digger Dec 2012 #107

It's good discrimination, based on facts. That makes the comparison to racial discrimination geek tragedy Dec 2012 #111

"Good Discrimination"? Hrmm, okay. If you say so. n/t X_Digger Dec 2012 #114

Yes, because it's based not on prejudice but on actual operative facts. geek tragedy Dec 2012 #115

Again, you seem to want to attach moral judgement where none is intended. X_Digger Dec 2012 #117

You compared common sense distinctions between the sexes based on actual geek tragedy Dec 2012 #121

Hint: Look up the definitions. X_Digger Dec 2012 #122

Viewing men as more likely to rape than women is not prejudice against men. geek tragedy Dec 2012 #123

Who mentioned prejudice? X_Digger Dec 2012 #124

So it's sexist to exclude women from testicular cancer screenings? geek tragedy Dec 2012 #125

Sexist? Sure. (discrimination based on gender) Prejudiced? No, because it's based on reason. X_Digger Dec 2012 #127

Oy, if you insist on making sexism a meaningless term, that's your choice. geek tragedy Dec 2012 #128

I don't "make" the term anything.. it is what it is. n/t X_Digger Dec 2012 #130

If you said excluding women from testicular cancer screenings was "sexism" in a room geek tragedy Dec 2012 #141

Please continue to argue with a dictionary. I find it amusing. n/t X_Digger Dec 2012 #154

You do realize that treating men as more likely to rape is not based on their geek tragedy Dec 2012 #157

Restating your position doesn't change the conclusion. X_Digger Dec 2012 #158

No, it's discrimination based on probability of threat. geek tragedy Dec 2012 #159

Sorry that you seem to have worked yourself into a corner, and can't get out without insults. n/t X_Digger Dec 2012 #160

I'll stick with my version of reality in which excluding women from testicular cancer geek tragedy Dec 2012 #163

Again, you seem to be arguing with a dictionary. Feel free. n/t X_Digger Dec 2012 #164

No, because excluding women is done on the basis that they are not geek tragedy Dec 2012 #165

Let it go. He is amusing himself by yanking your leash. tblue37 Dec 2012 #208

It's obvous X-digger is here to quibble thucythucy Dec 2012 #161

in exactly what way are women harming men by being a little wary? a wee ego bruise? bettyellen Dec 2012 #52

Your argument is apples and oranges--or are you really going to tell me that a petite woman... Moonwalk Dec 2012 #80

That's a bit of a straw man.. X_Digger Dec 2012 #97

It's not based on a Y chromosome--it's based on the actual ability and likelihood of that geek tragedy Dec 2012 #113

How often do women get raped by women? obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #21

Bingo. MotherPetrie Dec 2012 #26

There are entire websites dedicated to this concept. NashvilleLefty Dec 2012 #42

yes, it's porn for wannabe rapists who get off on seeing rape performed. geek tragedy Dec 2012 #81

That wouldn't be an idiotic comparison if only dark-skinned persons were capable geek tragedy Dec 2012 #77

Crimes by light-skinned people are not a statistical aberration LanternWaste Dec 2012 #126

This is illogical, since a rapist is likely to be a person one knows... nt Romulox Dec 2012 #17

It's true that a rapist is likely to be someone a person knows, Chorophyll Dec 2012 #19

Totally logical -- many of us live it every day obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #22

No, logical - it's more common with acquaintances because women let their guard down more with them bettyellen Dec 2012 #48

Read what you posted again. It's not logical to focus on the minuscule threat Romulox Dec 2012 #63

Perceived threat A Little Weird Dec 2012 #91

Thanks for this post. Romulox Dec 2012 #92

what is also toxic is when we SAY education for men ALSO, they HEAR we think they are all rapists... bettyellen Dec 2012 #136

I think ground rule #1 is that we all get to make *our own* arguments. I can't answer for others. Romulox Dec 2012 #137

I was explaining where the dialog goes wrong. Couldn't tell what part of that post you thought would bettyellen Dec 2012 #142

Let's have that conversation. It's needed. Let's allow room for EVERYONE to participate, though. Romulox Dec 2012 #146

It IS needed. The Shrodinger's rapist thing is not about the right strategy- it's about explaining bettyellen Dec 2012 #152

Yes!!! Exactly why I am saying more education is needed!!! Didn't say it's wisest strategy bettyellen Dec 2012 #132

But if this strategy is neither protecting people NOR emotionally satisfying NOR practical... Romulox Dec 2012 #135

It's marshaling support because we're put in a position of begging some men for forgiveness bettyellen Dec 2012 #138

Honestly, I don't understand your argument. I don't think we are going to have a Romulox Dec 2012 #140

I'm talking about how difficult it is to have this conversation with a lot of guys here, not about bettyellen Dec 2012 #147

I am trying, though. It's *way* easier/safer not to comment. Romulox Dec 2012 #150

ha ha, Your trying is noted and appreciated. bettyellen Dec 2012 #153

So sensible and what a relief UtahLib Dec 2012 #18

k & r -- excellent post obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #20

Here is where this originated (I think) Major Nikon Dec 2012 #23

Quite an illuminating femrap Dec 2012 #33

I don't see anything wrong with it Major Nikon Dec 2012 #34

Thanks for that great link. nt raccoon Dec 2012 #59

Thanks for the link. hifiguy Dec 2012 #112

Very well said Warren Religion Dec 2012 #27

Outstanding. And those last two paragraphs... redqueen Dec 2012 #35

Wow. Thank you. liberalmuse Dec 2012 #37

Thank you so much etherealtruth Dec 2012 #38

Even if the potential of rape wasn't the main concern shawn703 Dec 2012 #39

rapists are more often acquaintances, and use social pressure or manipulation to get an "in" bettyellen Dec 2012 #50

E.g. tama Dec 2012 #53

Every older male could be a child molester unc70 Dec 2012 #40

instead of feeling sorry for yourself, how about some empathy for women? bettyellen Dec 2012 #49

MY HURT IS BIGGER THAN YOUR HURT tama Dec 2012 #54

Similar to the "empathy deficit" thread, in which the OP told half of DU that their feeling don't Romulox Dec 2012 #66

This pathological culture is not helping women. That's what you fail to see. NOBODY IS PROTECTED Romulox Dec 2012 #65

Thank you for telling me how I should feel unc70 Dec 2012 #69

if I read you wrong I apologize. but the impact on men isn't our #1 concern, and it's a selfish bettyellen Dec 2012 #144

Must have missed that half unc70 Dec 2012 #156

oh good lord yes, sooo many posts insisting unless you get the wording *perfect* and make sure bettyellen Dec 2012 #167

The more I read this, the less I think you understand unc70 Dec 2012 #182

i call out the self centered ones who are most concerned about their hurt feelings bettyellen Dec 2012 #184

Thank you for that. K&R D23MIURG23 Dec 2012 #41

You nailed it! Odin2005 Dec 2012 #43

I'm not an expert on game theory, but expecting a good outcome, i.e., unknown male is not a rapist TransitJohn Dec 2012 #44

It depends on the person. JoeyT Dec 2012 #45

Great post. The situation has everything to do with this topic. nt raccoon Dec 2012 #60

Excellent point! Moonwalk Dec 2012 #68

You're right in the weight Hydra Dec 2012 #106

Very well put gollygee Dec 2012 #134

If you run that scenario every time you're around a man, eventually it will prove geek tragedy Dec 2012 #78

Thank you. freshwest Dec 2012 #46

we're expected to be courteous to every single person that tries to threadjack or disrupt, too! bettyellen Dec 2012 #47

Well Said, Sir! The Magistrate Dec 2012 #51

I had hoped you'd repost an earlier comment on this subject as an OP. You have done even better. Dark n Stormy Knight Dec 2012 #55

Amen! Especially your last paragraph. nt raccoon Dec 2012 #58

Of course teaching everyone to be afraid of everyone else is rational. The Doctor. Dec 2012 #61

Situations that make them vunerable? justiceischeap Dec 2012 #62

This entire discussion was started in response to an image AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #72

Perhaps, but the idea behind Schrödinger’s Rapist is not the same Major Nikon Dec 2012 #104

Unfortunately it's also (at least in that poster's context) an exhibition of 'stranger danger'. AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #119

"recognize situations that make them vulnerable" means being alone with a man geek tragedy Dec 2012 #84

You might be right Major Nikon Dec 2012 #96

that's why >>>NO ONE EVER SAID THAT <<< bettyellen Dec 2012 #174

He's dead, Jim Major Nikon Dec 2012 #181

HA. Tks! bettyellen Dec 2012 #183

That guy is a "doctor" like I'm Mary Queen of Scots. Quantess Dec 2012 #189

joeyt... so simple. so excellent. thank you. nt seabeyond Dec 2012 #73

Excellent OP! Spazito Dec 2012 #74

This. WilliamPitt Dec 2012 #79

Excellent analysis and a compassionate understanding. Flying Dream Blues Dec 2012 #83

Should I assume (or at least consider) that a concealed gun *could* be pointed at me... Silent3 Dec 2012 #89

That's not how I evaluate risks Major Nikon Dec 2012 #109

If you're talking about risk/cost analysis... Silent3 Dec 2012 #116

So are they Major Nikon Dec 2012 #118

So are they what? Silent3 Dec 2012 #120

I assumed you would Major Nikon Dec 2012 #131

So you want me to do an open-ended search on "risk analysis".... Silent3 Dec 2012 #133

OK, I'll impart some wisdom on you then Major Nikon Dec 2012 #145

Yeah... so? Silent3 Dec 2012 #166

Here's the point Major Nikon Dec 2012 #170

So "Schrödinger’s Rapist" isn't about mere uncertainty... Silent3 Dec 2012 #176

Read into it whatever you want Major Nikon Dec 2012 #179

OH FUCK THIS IS HILARIOUS. "ritual outpouring of emotion and agreement" HA HA HA bettyellen Dec 2012 #185

Here's what else I get out of this as a man Major Nikon Dec 2012 #187

And creepy is how it feels when otherwise good men bettyellen Dec 2012 #190

I've spoken to my wife about it Major Nikon Dec 2012 #191

True, there's a lot of other bad behavior that ain't part of the statistics bettyellen Dec 2012 #196

I think sexual harassment is a solvable problem Major Nikon Dec 2012 #202

Great to hear this! The prick who harassed me was an owner... it was a small and very dysfunctional bettyellen Dec 2012 #205

I freely admit I didn't worry about it much until it happened to my wife Major Nikon Dec 2012 #206

you should be proud! what blows my mind is this kind of thing was run of the mill forty years ago bettyellen Dec 2012 #207

Thank you. BTW, my post above was not meant to tblue37 Dec 2012 #210

MN, you wrote "So are they," tblue37 Dec 2012 #209

By "they" I mean those who are arguing on behalf of Schrödinger’s Rapist Major Nikon Dec 2012 #211

If 25% of all men were gunshot victims, you'd have a point there. In the South Bronx it IS a valid bettyellen Dec 2012 #148

the point of the OP is to increase understanding and empathy for women by explaining a reality bettyellen Dec 2012 #155

If "education" means that empathy is not only needed... Silent3 Dec 2012 #168

What bullshit! NO ONE SAID THAT. bettyellen Dec 2012 #172

Who said anything about empathy for men's feelings? Silent3 Dec 2012 #175

I did, and you did too. LOL. Are you okay? Cause you seem to be hearing things that NO ONE SAID bettyellen Dec 2012 #177

Please point out where I refer to "men's feelings". Silent3 Dec 2012 #178

Hands down the best and least contentious post hifiguy Dec 2012 #110

I think this is correct in our time... kentuck Dec 2012 #129

kick mstinamotorcity2 Dec 2012 #139

Aren't 90% of rapists known to their victims? Nevernose Dec 2012 #149

It's not used to explain strategy - just the common mindset..... bettyellen Dec 2012 #192

Thank you for this thoughtful essay. K&R myrna minx Dec 2012 #151

Excellent post. thucythucy Dec 2012 #162

.. Squinch Dec 2012 #169

You know, like most DU threads this has been both enlightening and disturbing to read Hydra Dec 2012 #171

Disturbing to see so many here angered by the idea of more education and advocacy. WTF, DU, WTFF!?!? bettyellen Dec 2012 #173

I'm not so sure men are your biggest obstacle in this Major Nikon Dec 2012 #180

Great point- I think progressive men should take more of an interest in public education bettyellen Dec 2012 #186

I tried to show my point of view further up and got jumped on Hydra Dec 2012 #188

Thank you. If men object to being Schrodinger's Rapist Warpy Dec 2012 #201

It's true but it is an unecessarily incendiary way to phrase it. Bonobo Dec 2012 #204