General Discussion

patrice

(47,992 posts)

239. How is saying handguns are the best choice not also saying one should do nothing less than the best

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 09:30 PM

Dec 2012

choice, which is to own and use handguns whenever one thinks there is danger?

If one does not do what is best, most efficacious, especially in regards to "danger" (actual or manufactured), what is the purpose of owning "the best choice"?

If one responds to "danger" with something less than "the best", what is the point of responding at all since failure in that response is apparently quite acceptable enough to refuse to use "the best" of one's resources?

I personally know the answers to these kinds of questions for myself, I am asking them here from the point of view of OP, because from that point of view we do in fact see that OP is indeed saying that there is one best defensive response to "danger" and that response is a gun, therefore, out of all of the other ways that one might defend against danger (actual or mis-perceived) one should ONLY use a gun.

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"Handguns...exacerbate our flaws, tempt us to escalate arguments, and bait us into embracing.... [View all] Junkdrawer Dec 2012 OP

Fact, govt. is not obligated to protect any individual not in custody. Question. who do you expect jody Dec 2012 #1

I see you're not conflicted.... Junkdrawer Dec 2012 #2

I'm not conflicted at all. Please refute any statement I made in my post. nt jody Dec 2012 #3

Loathsome and disgusting,. pscot Dec 2012 #6

Please refute any statement I made. nt jody Dec 2012 #7

For one thing, there is no such thing as an "inalienable right" Orrex Dec 2012 #45

I don't refute any of your bs, I just hope you "accidentally" refute yourself, and it hurts. xtraxritical Dec 2012 #51

Are you unable to refute my statements? That seems the case with your ad hominem attacks. nt jody Dec 2012 #54

YOU refute the quote in the OP by Costas. Lex Dec 2012 #117

Do you assert that "Handguns" produce those results? What about the other things criminals jody Dec 2012 #124

Guns can exacerbate without having to refute any of your other BS. morningfog Dec 2012 #139

What facts I cited in #1 do you call BS? nt jody Dec 2012 #143

Your so-called "facts" are irrelevant and stupid to this discussion. Red herring, strawmen morningfog Dec 2012 #150

I did not say the statements you quote are facts. The facts I gave place the burden of proof on jody Dec 2012 #154

Again, this discussion is not about abolishing the right to guns. You are trying to make it that. morningfog Dec 2012 #156

You want to change the gun culture. What law do you propose to make that change? nt jody Dec 2012 #157

Your agenda is getting the best of you. morningfog Dec 2012 #159

You refuse to acknowledge the obvious. OP introduces gun culture and gun control but no one jody Dec 2012 #164

First of all, gun clinging rednecks should chill the fuck out and morningfog Dec 2012 #167

Whoa!!!!!!!!!!! sarisataka Dec 2012 #172

What an odd thing to say. beevul Dec 2012 #181

Look at movies, video games and popular music and you will answer your own question. morningfog Dec 2012 #195

Wow! So gun owners are "rednecks afraid of inner city black men."?? Ya Basta Dec 2012 #241

I didn't say all gun owners were. morningfog Dec 2012 #242

Non-sequitor. You are not a redneck. Ikonoklast Dec 2012 #244

do MrDiaz Dec 2012 #177

Same old talking points. A bunch or parrots you are. morningfog Dec 2012 #196

same old MrDiaz Dec 2012 #201

And where are their charts? I miss those charts! We usually get the same ones in every gun CTyankee Dec 2012 #215

guns =/= forks =/= pencils =/= cars & pretending that they do ought to disqualify one to own patrice Dec 2012 #260

On the other hand, what "baits" AlexSatan Dec 2012 #191

"which is all 99% of gun owners do" PavePusher Dec 2012 #208

Who said that? AlexSatan Dec 2012 #223

Argh, I completely misread your statement. PavePusher Dec 2012 #230

No prob AlexSatan Dec 2012 #245

30,000 dead Americans every year from handguns. Zoeisright Dec 2012 #171

National Center for Injury Prevention and Control reports Homicide Firearm 11,073 for 2010. jody Dec 2012 #176

link please? MrDiaz Dec 2012 #179

Here: Junkdrawer Dec 2012 #182

O I C MrDiaz Dec 2012 #186

Suicides should be included. morningfog Dec 2012 #197

duh G_j Dec 2012 #204

That's too easy... rwsanders Dec 2012 #50

Understand and that's your choice. nt jody Dec 2012 #52

I totally agree with you. Illinoischick Dec 2012 #9

How about making that statement to the Native Americans. Dont call me Shirley Dec 2012 #13

Please refute any statement I made. nt jody Dec 2012 #16

bullshit. The "inalienable" part is about LIFE. It's one of the first things mentioned pasto76 Dec 2012 #19

Please refute any statement I made. nt jody Dec 2012 #30

With all due respect. AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #67

No, they really aren't. beevul Dec 2012 #183

Love how a plea for sanity always brings out the gun nuts ready to defend their stupid worship abelenkpe Dec 2012 #26

Please refute any statement I made. nt jody Dec 2012 #31

me too (nt) Tumbulu Dec 2012 #61

Wanting to take away Berserker Dec 2012 #83

"... and pursuing and obtaining happiness and safety." from your thread. Whovian Dec 2012 #55

Please refute any statement I made. nt jody Dec 2012 #58

I just did. Happiness can be different things to different people. Whovian Dec 2012 #69

To me it is. nt jody Dec 2012 #93

Mine is to me. So that means we do what I say, right? jeff47 Dec 2012 #114

The unique thing about our government is our Constitution requires it to protect the unalienable jody Dec 2012 #120

Actually, it's not unique. jeff47 Dec 2012 #153

IMO it was unique in 1776. It's also the longest surviving government, Iceland is questionable, of jody Dec 2012 #155

There is no Right to murder innocent people, under any Amendment. n/t PavePusher Dec 2012 #209

It means you each make your own decisions... Lightbulb_on Dec 2012 #144

The problem is your decisions do not just affect yourself. jeff47 Dec 2012 #152

This is the part of your post that is logically wrong (and factually challenged)... Sancho Dec 2012 #95

Interesting but LEOs choose handguns as do 8 million citizens who possess CCW. jody Dec 2012 #106

I know all about CCW...and it doesn't change the logical problem.... Sancho Dec 2012 #145

The right to keep and bear arms for self-defense is not limited to firearms. To begin, what federal jody Dec 2012 #151

It doesn't matter if control laws were state or federal... Sancho Dec 2012 #166

The laws you cite refer to dealers... Sancho Dec 2012 #170

No, the laws I cited are all federal laws that pertain to firearms. nt jody Dec 2012 #175

Firearm dealers and collectors...not every user, buyer or owner. Sancho Dec 2012 #203

With all due respect, no you do not. beevul Dec 2012 #185

That probably depends on your local state... Sancho Dec 2012 #205

Ownership vs public usage. beevul Dec 2012 #233

You have to show proof of insurance to register a car or trailer in Florida... Sancho Dec 2012 #240

One need not "register" a car, simply to own it. beevul Dec 2012 #246

Here, you cannot "own" a car unless you buy it or someone gives it to you... Sancho Dec 2012 #253

That may be true... beevul Dec 2012 #265

It's time to quit arguing with you... Sancho Dec 2012 #266

I thought we were discussing /shrug. beevul Dec 2012 #267

You can get lots of information from the link below... Sancho Dec 2012 #268

Do you contend that in this "different world" of the past AlexSatan Dec 2012 #192

Not one thing in your first paragraph illustrates any difference... PavePusher Dec 2012 #210

Why do you need to know about my personal property? Lightbulb_on Dec 2012 #146

If guns were "the best choice" wouldn't that mean THE most efficacious? Is that the fact? No. patrice Dec 2012 #109

Depends on circumstances. n/t PavePusher Dec 2012 #211

Correct, ergo guns don't necessarily accomplish whatever it is that one assumes they patrice Dec 2012 #221

What defensive tools would not be "an oversimplified 'answer'"? PavePusher Dec 2012 #228

I was thinking of defensive tools that recognize the causes of danger, before it's too late. patrice Dec 2012 #229

I really don't understand what you are trying to say. PavePusher Dec 2012 #232

Are you telling me that people with guns don't kill others for anything but self defense? wow. nt patrice Dec 2012 #234

Again you are inventing things I did not say. n/t PavePusher Dec 2012 #249

Please quote directly what part(s) you can't understand & I will clarify. Thanks. nt patrice Dec 2012 #237

What, pray tell, is "natural" about the ability to hurl multiple small pieces of metal at wildly patrice Dec 2012 #116

Using tools is a natural ability of Homo Sapiens. PavePusher Dec 2012 #212

False equivalence. There are significant qualitative differences between tools, otherwise we'd all patrice Dec 2012 #220

Non sequiteur. PavePusher Dec 2012 #225

So a knife is the same thing as an armed drone and, therefore, you have a "right" to use either patrice Dec 2012 #226

I didn't say anything like that. PavePusher Dec 2012 #231

You said that using tools is a natural ability of homo sapiens and, by implication, that's some kind patrice Dec 2012 #236

The can both be used for constructive or destructive purposes. PavePusher Dec 2012 #248

It's not a non sequiteur (sic) just because you fail to see the connection, in the same manner that patrice Dec 2012 #227

You assume that there is one and ONLY one way to defend life, liberty, property etc. & that way patrice Dec 2012 #122

Ummm, he said no such things. n/t PavePusher Dec 2012 #213

How is saying handguns are the best choice not also saying one should do nothing less than the best patrice Dec 2012 #239

First you claimed he said ONLY choice, which was not true. PavePusher Dec 2012 #251

Tell me why the best choice would not be also the ONLY choice when it comes to "defense". nt patrice Dec 2012 #255

Because we have free will, and some people come to different results than others... PavePusher Dec 2012 #257

Free will? Let's not go there, rightnow, suffice it to say that I disagree with anyone who disputes patrice Dec 2012 #261

There are no guarantees. PavePusher Dec 2012 #262

Huh? Are you guaranteeing that there are no guarantees? & If you are defending yourself, why patrice Dec 2012 #263

Sorry! I couldn't resist that. I actually agree with you. There are only probabilities. nt patrice Dec 2012 #264

Are you saying that BECAUSE police use guns, we should too, since police pose a threat to us? patrice Dec 2012 #127

Well yes, patently, they can be a threat to innocent people. PavePusher Dec 2012 #214

So, just how much danger are all of us in, from police & under what circumstances? patrice Dec 2012 #243

If the abuses become common/strong enough, we are equipped to fight back. PavePusher Dec 2012 #252

Or - are you saying that we face the same threats that police do, so we should have guns too? patrice Dec 2012 #128

Yes, we face the same threats. PavePusher Dec 2012 #216

We, ALL of us, live in high probability of direct assault multiple times a day, just like patrice Dec 2012 #235

No, I have not said what you claim I said. n/t PavePusher Dec 2012 #247

You are defending #1 and that's what #1 said. nt patrice Dec 2012 #256

another fact green for victory Dec 2012 #160

Well said, and definitely food for thought. n/t PavePusher Dec 2012 #217

Ah! something we agree upon & which also definitely falls in the category of thinking about patrice Dec 2012 #238

I don't know anyone who recommends anything different. n/t PavePusher Dec 2012 #250

+100. Image at bottom of your post says it all. nt Skip Intro Dec 2012 #162

Very close sarisataka Dec 2012 #4

People chose to bring themselves closer to the brink by purchasing the gun.... Junkdrawer Dec 2012 #5

Yes, that is true. People who know they are close to the brink shouldn't buy guns. slackmaster Dec 2012 #21

Good point nt Tumbulu Dec 2012 #62

The purchase of a gun does not bring them closer to the brink sarisataka Dec 2012 #77

No always AlexSatan Dec 2012 #193

It's true. DanTex Dec 2012 #8

Please cite a credible study that supports your assertion. nt jody Dec 2012 #12

The Harvard School of Public Health is a good starting point. DanTex Dec 2012 #15

That study is not original research. Please cite a credible study. nt jody Dec 2012 #20

That's because it is a survey paper. There are about 100 citations at the end of it, which DanTex Dec 2012 #25

You know they'll never read anything that goes against their religion. nt abelenkpe Dec 2012 #27

As is being illustrated in this very thread. Squinch Dec 2012 #44

#8 you said "that guns make people less safe rather than more safe". Prove it. nt jody Dec 2012 #29

Guns do make people less safe. If you are intent on ignoring the evidence, that's your choice. DanTex Dec 2012 #36

I will not ignore any credible study you cite. Problem is you have not yet done so. nt jody Dec 2012 #40

Of course, you will simply label any study that contradicts your dogma as "not credible". DanTex Dec 2012 #41

Please cite any post in which I said a "study . . . [was] 'not credible'" without disputing the jody Dec 2012 #48

This is getting a little silly. DanTex Dec 2012 #57

No, the silly thing is you being unable to cite a credible study. nt jody Dec 2012 #60

Perhaps your DU account has been hacked? Tumbulu Dec 2012 #68

Yes, it is. The poster is far too transparent and obvious to be taken seriously. morningfog Dec 2012 #140

Evidence: 100% of all people killed by guns were killed by guns. morningfog Dec 2012 #136

"hands of those who pulled the trigger" of course were innocent bystanders when that handgun killed jody Dec 2012 #142

You are right, no one is shot by accident. morningfog Dec 2012 #147

But what about self defense? alp227 Dec 2012 #148

One of many safeinOhio Dec 2012 #63

Man accidentally kills himself Berserker Dec 2012 #87

Only I can't safeinOhio Dec 2012 #103

Kind of hard to defend your home with the the family car as well. LAGC Dec 2012 #121

In 63 years old and I have never needed to use safeinOhio Dec 2012 #174

Are you a computer generated responder? Tumbulu Dec 2012 #66

I agree--that was my initial impression--robotic! corneliamcgillicutty Dec 2012 #78

Why don't you illuminate those who read this thread by providing facts. You can start by jody Dec 2012 #111

The fact is that if you are a real person Tumbulu Dec 2012 #135

Yet as a society we have never been safer hack89 Dec 2012 #92

Compared to Canada, UK, Germany, etc. we have far more homicide. DanTex Dec 2012 #98

So the huge upswing in gun purchases are all repeat buyers? Got it. nt hack89 Dec 2012 #102

Here's GSS data on gun ownership rates: DanTex Dec 2012 #108

And older white males are not a particualary violent segment of society hack89 Dec 2012 #113

You keep changing the subject every time you are proven wrong. And now you have ceased making DanTex Dec 2012 #115

And yet we have never been safer hack89 Dec 2012 #178

So show me how GSS surveyed felons hack89 Dec 2012 #190

My town is just as safe as Canada, UK or Germany hack89 Dec 2012 #189

The righties were going nuts today on the local talk show, doc03 Dec 2012 #10

I'm a lefty Berserker Dec 2012 #89

Whatever you think I can't see where someone should be fired for doc03 Dec 2012 #94

Freedom of speech = government can't prosecute speech, but employers may regulate workers' speech. alp227 Dec 2012 #149

There is a lot of truth in what he said and voicing his opinion doc03 Dec 2012 #158

Well, I'd say that psychos will find any way to harm another person, alp227 Dec 2012 #161

Believe me those two that shot the 17 year old boy down in doc03 Dec 2012 #169

What a level headed guy, Jason Whitlock. He needs to keep writing, being read Dont call me Shirley Dec 2012 #11

I am not sure your post humbled_opinion Dec 2012 #14

Here here oberle Dec 2012 #18

Do you believe Democrat Obama lied when he promised "I will not take your shotgun away, I won't take jody Dec 2012 #56

And more evidence of hacking- using Democrat Tumbulu Dec 2012 #72

Alert this or something? snort Dec 2012 #76

well I am not sure how to alert on a poster Tumbulu Dec 2012 #85

Do you believe Democrat Obama's statement was a lie as I asked? nt jody Dec 2012 #96

has to be computer generated....what to do is the question nt Tumbulu Dec 2012 #131

Have a blissful evening and goodbye. nt jody Dec 2012 #134

Huh? Sez who? n/t PavePusher Dec 2012 #218

The President humbled_opinion Dec 2012 #79

Do you have a quote where Obama evolved by saying in essence "I will take your shotgun away, I will jody Dec 2012 #100

Same can be said about a car, knife, hammer, chainsaw etc Illinoischick Dec 2012 #64

Because ... Straw Man Dec 2012 #75

That wasn't my point humbled_opinion Dec 2012 #82

That WAS your point. Straw Man Dec 2012 #173

YUP there here Berserker Dec 2012 #91

40 percent of Dems own guns hack89 Dec 2012 #105

What?!?! No-one was ever murdered before the advent of guns? PavePusher Dec 2012 #219

I'm in agreement with much of Mr. Whitlock's commentary, however I see it as the culture of violence slackmaster Dec 2012 #17

good point maindawg Dec 2012 #28

If you didn't know he was a football player, he would have been the last person you expected. bluedigger Dec 2012 #53

I didn't know much about him. That is very, no obvious sign of a typical "troubled" youth. slackmaster Dec 2012 #59

If he had stayed in West Babylon HockeyMom Dec 2012 #65

West Babylon is Suffolk County. Straw Man Dec 2012 #84

He did not Berserker Dec 2012 #101

My handgun certainly "exacerbates" my flaws. bvar22 Dec 2012 #22

Why would one need to shoot someone from that distance? Hoyt Dec 2012 #42

Odd. bvar22 Dec 2012 #49

I'm against toting in public, shooting someone running away with a CD player, Hoyt Dec 2012 #71

Who is talking about shooting people? hack89 Dec 2012 #97

Except in highly unlikely situations? Berserker Dec 2012 #107

I practice at 30 yards with handguns because... bvar22 Dec 2012 #123

Enjoy your guns. So you tote in "urbs or sub-urbs?" Hoyt Dec 2012 #126

Man, I don't even GO to the Urbs or SubUrbs anymore. bvar22 Dec 2012 #130

Costas wasnt advocating gun control maindawg Dec 2012 #23

On this subject, sanity is too much to request. There is just no reasoning. Squinch Dec 2012 #46

You only need a license to operate a vehicle on a public road. AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #70

uh... beevul Dec 2012 #188

This Is An Absolute Fabulous Message 1ProudAtheist Dec 2012 #24

+++1 patrice Dec 2012 #35

RE: nuclear weapons. The "Truman needs the test before he confronts Stalin." story tells the tale.. Junkdrawer Dec 2012 #39

Thanks. I wonder how many know that this was written and earlier published by someone else. elleng Dec 2012 #32

In whatever tragic situation, all other factors being the same, it's the presence of a gun that patrice Dec 2012 #33

+1000 OrwellwasRight Dec 2012 #81

And the gun worshipers are crucifying him for his plea for sanity. baldguy Dec 2012 #34

Hollywood is partly to blame . . . Utopian Leftist Dec 2012 #37

So true and this has been my gripe for a very long time Tumbulu Dec 2012 #73

HUGE K & R !!! - Thank You !!! WillyT Dec 2012 #38

We need a campaign to change attitudes about guns, just like cigarettes, Hoyt Dec 2012 #43

The late-great Paul Newman did one in a series for a group called Cease Fire..... Junkdrawer Dec 2012 #47

I will have to check those out. Thanks. Hoyt Dec 2012 #80

Good idea! nt Tumbulu Dec 2012 #74

but but but... humbled_opinion Dec 2012 #86

I swear gun culture makes absurd arguments. Hoyt Dec 2012 #118

Football is one of the most violent sports in the world. That man was MADE of violence. The gun is rDigital Dec 2012 #88

Actually, from growing up with gun culture, I'd say the gun culture encourages the opposite. ancianita Dec 2012 #90

Alcohol does the same but the cost to society is much greater. nt hack89 Dec 2012 #99

Well hand guns are made for killin' They ain't no good for nothin' else SomethingFishy Dec 2012 #104

My hand gun Berserker Dec 2012 #110

Bwhahahahahahaha! SomethingFishy Dec 2012 #202

You watch too many bad movies or too much bad TV. PavePusher Dec 2012 #222

OK, I guess this is where I say I don't agree with gun control because... Taverner Dec 2012 #112

It does work. nt Lex Dec 2012 #119

Link Please Berserker Dec 2012 #125

Your little gif Lex Dec 2012 #129

AWWWW gun Worshippers Berserker Dec 2012 #132

I don't worship my guns either. bvar22 Dec 2012 #137

Not true. It's say, "Fuck economic & social justice" + say, "Guns!" = panic about gun ownership. patrice Dec 2012 #133

And it is guns that enables some people to say, "Fuck economic & social justice." nt patrice Dec 2012 #138

And those people definitely are not necessarily in law enforcement at Fed or state level as patrice Dec 2012 #141

"exacerbate our...tempt us...bait us" flvegan Dec 2012 #163

Does, or has, Bob Costas legally carried a concealed handgun? krispos42 Dec 2012 #165

One doesn't need to engage in aberrant behavior to recognize aberrance DisgustipatedinCA Dec 2012 #199

And, like Costas, you have zero credibility on this issue. n/t krispos42 Dec 2012 #224

Guns simply aren't the problem. Moral decay is the problem. Skip Intro Dec 2012 #168

Gun CULTURE. Guns have become a part of the Gangsta lifestyle one the one hand.... Junkdrawer Dec 2012 #180

What about those of us who are neither gangsters or Tea baggers? hack89 Dec 2012 #194

Here: Junkdrawer Dec 2012 #206

Excellent post. Thanks. nt hack89 Dec 2012 #207

That is to say, the vast, overwhelming majority of gun owners. Lizzie Poppet Dec 2012 #258

Whitlock correct -- "But we won�t." aikoaiko Dec 2012 #184

Guns in the home don't make one safer duhneece Dec 2012 #187

our media and our culture don't like to have the hard conversations liberal_at_heart Dec 2012 #198

Thank you for getting the point of the OP Junkdrawer Dec 2012 #200

I find it amazing that no one on TV is addressing the domestic violence part of the story.. rainlillie Dec 2012 #254

Sports stars are excused for their little foibles JustABozoOnThisBus Dec 2012 #259