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bettyellen

(47,209 posts)

205. Great to hear this! The prick who harassed me was an owner... it was a small and very dysfunctional

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 08:39 PM

Dec 2012

place. I was happy to be out of there, but it was shocking still how blatant he was. But the fashion industry can be ugly like that. I'm with a corporate retailer now, and having a functioning HR department makes a huge difference. It's probably the biggest reason I'm still there after 6 years.

Something just occurred to me about our conversation here. You probably now have a fuller picture the negative impact that sexism and misogyny have had in my life than pretty much every guy I know. Occasionally you trade war stories- share the historical highlights with other women, and when more dramatic events happen you might tell the men currently in your life friend or SO- but then again, you might not if you're afraid of their reaction. Men generally don't know what to do with this kind of information, LOL. I think they want to find some rational explanation for it - and in doing so accidentally make us feeing blamed. Or they want to take action or something, when really, what can they do for us except accept it and support? I think ultimately if I even gave them an abbreviated laundry list as I did for you, many would freak out and expect that I should hate men. (But some of my best friends are men!!!) But of course I realize it's a only small fraction of them who are incredibly awful human beings. Those guys are so friggin awful though, the fear that I would stereotype other guys and hang that crap on them is truly insane.

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A bit about "potential rapists". [View all] JoeyT Dec 2012 OP

Nice analysis Xipe Totec Dec 2012 #1

+1,000 Fridays Child Dec 2012 #2

Great post. Thank you. n/t TDale313 Dec 2012 #3

Awesome analysis. Wish I could rec this thread to the high heavens and hope coalition_unwilling Dec 2012 #4

One could feel similar in the hood where I live when a person of color approaches them The Straight Story Dec 2012 #5

Based on my experience I'd only worry about white people as far as theft goes gollygee Dec 2012 #7

The stereotype of the thief being a lowlife black or white from a poor socio-economic Rozlee Dec 2012 #8

That's true too gollygee Dec 2012 #9

It's the crimes they want us to notice that they go after. Pay no attention to that man behind the Dark n Stormy Knight Dec 2012 #56

See posts 8, 22, 25, and redqueen Dec 2012 #36

Stupid analogy. Men are the only people who will rape a woman. geek tragedy Dec 2012 #75

This depends on whether you're talking about the population at large Rozlee Dec 2012 #87

I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm saying it's MUCH less likely for a woman geek tragedy Dec 2012 #90

I updated my post but you're right. Rozlee Dec 2012 #98

k&r Starry Messenger Dec 2012 #6

You can extend this without it being insulting even Hydra Dec 2012 #10

Wow. What a constrained mindset. Romulox Dec 2012 #16

Sounds more like snark Fumesucker Dec 2012 #24

No snark involved Hydra Dec 2012 #32

Yes, I do have PSTD, thanks for mentioning it Hydra Dec 2012 #31

Absolutely not. Dark n Stormy Knight Dec 2012 #57

Thank you for that~ Hydra Dec 2012 #67

PTSD means that your reactions are not necessarily to the present stimulus, but perhaps an earlier Romulox Dec 2012 #64

Just because you're paranoid and all that... Moonwalk Dec 2012 #70

He said he suffers from PTSD. That's what "PTSD" means. It's definitional. Romulox Dec 2012 #71

I'm saying that you're taking his PTSD as evidence that everything he says he does... Moonwalk Dec 2012 #86

No. I am saying what is in my posts. I will not refute things I didn't say, like "delusional". Romulox Dec 2012 #88

Oh, glad you finally got to the point Hydra Dec 2012 #103

YOU mentioned cyclists and salespeople as "threats" on a discussion about *rape*. Romulox Dec 2012 #105

Not my fault if you took what I said and decided to downplay/read into it Hydra Dec 2012 #108

PSTD is not much of a protection in my case Hydra Dec 2012 #85

You've been attacked by people on bikes, and salespeople? That's who you mentioned as threats. Romulox Dec 2012 #93

Why should I go into the more ugly stuff Hydra Dec 2012 #100

Honestly, I think fumesucker had it right. I should have listened. nt Romulox Dec 2012 #101

PTSD doesn't make every perceived threat imaginary, as I'm sure you know. Dark n Stormy Knight Dec 2012 #193

He mentions cyclists and salespeople as "threats" in question. I doubt his sincerity. nt Romulox Dec 2012 #194

No. I think I understand just what he means. If you can't understand it, consider yourself lucky. Dark n Stormy Knight Dec 2012 #195

Really? you think it's the same? Marrah_G Dec 2012 #197

I do, and I think it should be considered "due caution" rather than Hydra Dec 2012 #198

No not really Marrah_G Dec 2012 #199

Probably so Hydra Dec 2012 #200

The best way I can explain it is this: Marrah_G Dec 2012 #203

very well said SemperEadem Dec 2012 #11

so well put, I am very appreciative you took the time to write this. n/t Whisp Dec 2012 #12

when a strange man, woman or child approaches me I have no idea whether they are HiPointDem Dec 2012 #13

The slope is less slippery than you'd think. JoeyT Dec 2012 #28

well, if white people are more likely to be victims of white people, there you go! HiPointDem Dec 2012 #30

Oh Jesus, poor oppressed men who whine because women have to live in fear of being raped. geek tragedy Dec 2012 #76

psst: i'm a woman HiPointDem Dec 2012 #143

Interesting. SheilaT Dec 2012 #14

There's a nugget of cognitive dissonance that just can't be overcome.. X_Digger Dec 2012 #15

It isn't even difficult to overcome. JoeyT Dec 2012 #25

Umm.. wha huh? X_Digger Dec 2012 #29

Are you really that stupid as to suggest its immoral discrimination to view men as more geek tragedy Dec 2012 #82

I make no value judgement either way. X_Digger Dec 2012 #94

Well, you're acting like it's discrimination to acknowledge a fact known to every geek tragedy Dec 2012 #95

By definition, it is discrimination- "Recognize a distinction; differentiate." n/t X_Digger Dec 2012 #99

In the sense that hiring smart people to work at accounting firm geek tragedy Dec 2012 #102

Arguing whether it's valid or invalid, justifiable or irrational- is another discussion. X_Digger Dec 2012 #107

It's good discrimination, based on facts. That makes the comparison to racial discrimination geek tragedy Dec 2012 #111

"Good Discrimination"? Hrmm, okay. If you say so. n/t X_Digger Dec 2012 #114

Yes, because it's based not on prejudice but on actual operative facts. geek tragedy Dec 2012 #115

Again, you seem to want to attach moral judgement where none is intended. X_Digger Dec 2012 #117

You compared common sense distinctions between the sexes based on actual geek tragedy Dec 2012 #121

Hint: Look up the definitions. X_Digger Dec 2012 #122

Viewing men as more likely to rape than women is not prejudice against men. geek tragedy Dec 2012 #123

Who mentioned prejudice? X_Digger Dec 2012 #124

So it's sexist to exclude women from testicular cancer screenings? geek tragedy Dec 2012 #125

Sexist? Sure. (discrimination based on gender) Prejudiced? No, because it's based on reason. X_Digger Dec 2012 #127

Oy, if you insist on making sexism a meaningless term, that's your choice. geek tragedy Dec 2012 #128

I don't "make" the term anything.. it is what it is. n/t X_Digger Dec 2012 #130

If you said excluding women from testicular cancer screenings was "sexism" in a room geek tragedy Dec 2012 #141

Please continue to argue with a dictionary. I find it amusing. n/t X_Digger Dec 2012 #154

You do realize that treating men as more likely to rape is not based on their geek tragedy Dec 2012 #157

Restating your position doesn't change the conclusion. X_Digger Dec 2012 #158

No, it's discrimination based on probability of threat. geek tragedy Dec 2012 #159

Sorry that you seem to have worked yourself into a corner, and can't get out without insults. n/t X_Digger Dec 2012 #160

I'll stick with my version of reality in which excluding women from testicular cancer geek tragedy Dec 2012 #163

Again, you seem to be arguing with a dictionary. Feel free. n/t X_Digger Dec 2012 #164

No, because excluding women is done on the basis that they are not geek tragedy Dec 2012 #165

Let it go. He is amusing himself by yanking your leash. tblue37 Dec 2012 #208

It's obvous X-digger is here to quibble thucythucy Dec 2012 #161

in exactly what way are women harming men by being a little wary? a wee ego bruise? bettyellen Dec 2012 #52

Your argument is apples and oranges--or are you really going to tell me that a petite woman... Moonwalk Dec 2012 #80

That's a bit of a straw man.. X_Digger Dec 2012 #97

It's not based on a Y chromosome--it's based on the actual ability and likelihood of that geek tragedy Dec 2012 #113

How often do women get raped by women? obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #21

Bingo. MotherPetrie Dec 2012 #26

There are entire websites dedicated to this concept. NashvilleLefty Dec 2012 #42

yes, it's porn for wannabe rapists who get off on seeing rape performed. geek tragedy Dec 2012 #81

That wouldn't be an idiotic comparison if only dark-skinned persons were capable geek tragedy Dec 2012 #77

Crimes by light-skinned people are not a statistical aberration LanternWaste Dec 2012 #126

This is illogical, since a rapist is likely to be a person one knows... nt Romulox Dec 2012 #17

It's true that a rapist is likely to be someone a person knows, Chorophyll Dec 2012 #19

Totally logical -- many of us live it every day obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #22

No, logical - it's more common with acquaintances because women let their guard down more with them bettyellen Dec 2012 #48

Read what you posted again. It's not logical to focus on the minuscule threat Romulox Dec 2012 #63

Perceived threat A Little Weird Dec 2012 #91

Thanks for this post. Romulox Dec 2012 #92

what is also toxic is when we SAY education for men ALSO, they HEAR we think they are all rapists... bettyellen Dec 2012 #136

I think ground rule #1 is that we all get to make *our own* arguments. I can't answer for others. Romulox Dec 2012 #137

I was explaining where the dialog goes wrong. Couldn't tell what part of that post you thought would bettyellen Dec 2012 #142

Let's have that conversation. It's needed. Let's allow room for EVERYONE to participate, though. Romulox Dec 2012 #146

It IS needed. The Shrodinger's rapist thing is not about the right strategy- it's about explaining bettyellen Dec 2012 #152

Yes!!! Exactly why I am saying more education is needed!!! Didn't say it's wisest strategy bettyellen Dec 2012 #132

But if this strategy is neither protecting people NOR emotionally satisfying NOR practical... Romulox Dec 2012 #135

It's marshaling support because we're put in a position of begging some men for forgiveness bettyellen Dec 2012 #138

Honestly, I don't understand your argument. I don't think we are going to have a Romulox Dec 2012 #140

I'm talking about how difficult it is to have this conversation with a lot of guys here, not about bettyellen Dec 2012 #147

I am trying, though. It's *way* easier/safer not to comment. Romulox Dec 2012 #150

ha ha, Your trying is noted and appreciated. bettyellen Dec 2012 #153

So sensible and what a relief UtahLib Dec 2012 #18

k & r -- excellent post obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #20

Here is where this originated (I think) Major Nikon Dec 2012 #23

Quite an illuminating femrap Dec 2012 #33

I don't see anything wrong with it Major Nikon Dec 2012 #34

Thanks for that great link. nt raccoon Dec 2012 #59

Thanks for the link. hifiguy Dec 2012 #112

Very well said Warren Religion Dec 2012 #27

Outstanding. And those last two paragraphs... redqueen Dec 2012 #35

Wow. Thank you. liberalmuse Dec 2012 #37

Thank you so much etherealtruth Dec 2012 #38

Even if the potential of rape wasn't the main concern shawn703 Dec 2012 #39

rapists are more often acquaintances, and use social pressure or manipulation to get an "in" bettyellen Dec 2012 #50

E.g. tama Dec 2012 #53

Every older male could be a child molester unc70 Dec 2012 #40

instead of feeling sorry for yourself, how about some empathy for women? bettyellen Dec 2012 #49

MY HURT IS BIGGER THAN YOUR HURT tama Dec 2012 #54

Similar to the "empathy deficit" thread, in which the OP told half of DU that their feeling don't Romulox Dec 2012 #66

This pathological culture is not helping women. That's what you fail to see. NOBODY IS PROTECTED Romulox Dec 2012 #65

Thank you for telling me how I should feel unc70 Dec 2012 #69

if I read you wrong I apologize. but the impact on men isn't our #1 concern, and it's a selfish bettyellen Dec 2012 #144

Must have missed that half unc70 Dec 2012 #156

oh good lord yes, sooo many posts insisting unless you get the wording *perfect* and make sure bettyellen Dec 2012 #167

The more I read this, the less I think you understand unc70 Dec 2012 #182

i call out the self centered ones who are most concerned about their hurt feelings bettyellen Dec 2012 #184

Thank you for that. K&R D23MIURG23 Dec 2012 #41

You nailed it! Odin2005 Dec 2012 #43

I'm not an expert on game theory, but expecting a good outcome, i.e., unknown male is not a rapist TransitJohn Dec 2012 #44

It depends on the person. JoeyT Dec 2012 #45

Great post. The situation has everything to do with this topic. nt raccoon Dec 2012 #60

Excellent point! Moonwalk Dec 2012 #68

You're right in the weight Hydra Dec 2012 #106

Very well put gollygee Dec 2012 #134

If you run that scenario every time you're around a man, eventually it will prove geek tragedy Dec 2012 #78

Thank you. freshwest Dec 2012 #46

we're expected to be courteous to every single person that tries to threadjack or disrupt, too! bettyellen Dec 2012 #47

Well Said, Sir! The Magistrate Dec 2012 #51

I had hoped you'd repost an earlier comment on this subject as an OP. You have done even better. Dark n Stormy Knight Dec 2012 #55

Amen! Especially your last paragraph. nt raccoon Dec 2012 #58

Of course teaching everyone to be afraid of everyone else is rational. The Doctor. Dec 2012 #61

Situations that make them vunerable? justiceischeap Dec 2012 #62

This entire discussion was started in response to an image AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #72

Perhaps, but the idea behind Schrödinger’s Rapist is not the same Major Nikon Dec 2012 #104

Unfortunately it's also (at least in that poster's context) an exhibition of 'stranger danger'. AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #119

"recognize situations that make them vulnerable" means being alone with a man geek tragedy Dec 2012 #84

You might be right Major Nikon Dec 2012 #96

that's why >>>NO ONE EVER SAID THAT <<< bettyellen Dec 2012 #174

He's dead, Jim Major Nikon Dec 2012 #181

HA. Tks! bettyellen Dec 2012 #183

That guy is a "doctor" like I'm Mary Queen of Scots. Quantess Dec 2012 #189

joeyt... so simple. so excellent. thank you. nt seabeyond Dec 2012 #73

Excellent OP! Spazito Dec 2012 #74

This. WilliamPitt Dec 2012 #79

Excellent analysis and a compassionate understanding. Flying Dream Blues Dec 2012 #83

Should I assume (or at least consider) that a concealed gun *could* be pointed at me... Silent3 Dec 2012 #89

That's not how I evaluate risks Major Nikon Dec 2012 #109

If you're talking about risk/cost analysis... Silent3 Dec 2012 #116

So are they Major Nikon Dec 2012 #118

So are they what? Silent3 Dec 2012 #120

I assumed you would Major Nikon Dec 2012 #131

So you want me to do an open-ended search on "risk analysis".... Silent3 Dec 2012 #133

OK, I'll impart some wisdom on you then Major Nikon Dec 2012 #145

Yeah... so? Silent3 Dec 2012 #166

Here's the point Major Nikon Dec 2012 #170

So "Schrödinger’s Rapist" isn't about mere uncertainty... Silent3 Dec 2012 #176

Read into it whatever you want Major Nikon Dec 2012 #179

OH FUCK THIS IS HILARIOUS. "ritual outpouring of emotion and agreement" HA HA HA bettyellen Dec 2012 #185

Here's what else I get out of this as a man Major Nikon Dec 2012 #187

And creepy is how it feels when otherwise good men bettyellen Dec 2012 #190

I've spoken to my wife about it Major Nikon Dec 2012 #191

True, there's a lot of other bad behavior that ain't part of the statistics bettyellen Dec 2012 #196

I think sexual harassment is a solvable problem Major Nikon Dec 2012 #202

Great to hear this! The prick who harassed me was an owner... it was a small and very dysfunctional bettyellen Dec 2012 #205

I freely admit I didn't worry about it much until it happened to my wife Major Nikon Dec 2012 #206

you should be proud! what blows my mind is this kind of thing was run of the mill forty years ago bettyellen Dec 2012 #207

Thank you. BTW, my post above was not meant to tblue37 Dec 2012 #210

MN, you wrote "So are they," tblue37 Dec 2012 #209

By "they" I mean those who are arguing on behalf of Schrödinger’s Rapist Major Nikon Dec 2012 #211

If 25% of all men were gunshot victims, you'd have a point there. In the South Bronx it IS a valid bettyellen Dec 2012 #148

the point of the OP is to increase understanding and empathy for women by explaining a reality bettyellen Dec 2012 #155

If "education" means that empathy is not only needed... Silent3 Dec 2012 #168

What bullshit! NO ONE SAID THAT. bettyellen Dec 2012 #172

Who said anything about empathy for men's feelings? Silent3 Dec 2012 #175

I did, and you did too. LOL. Are you okay? Cause you seem to be hearing things that NO ONE SAID bettyellen Dec 2012 #177

Please point out where I refer to "men's feelings". Silent3 Dec 2012 #178

Hands down the best and least contentious post hifiguy Dec 2012 #110

I think this is correct in our time... kentuck Dec 2012 #129

kick mstinamotorcity2 Dec 2012 #139

Aren't 90% of rapists known to their victims? Nevernose Dec 2012 #149

It's not used to explain strategy - just the common mindset..... bettyellen Dec 2012 #192

Thank you for this thoughtful essay. K&R myrna minx Dec 2012 #151

Excellent post. thucythucy Dec 2012 #162

.. Squinch Dec 2012 #169

You know, like most DU threads this has been both enlightening and disturbing to read Hydra Dec 2012 #171

Disturbing to see so many here angered by the idea of more education and advocacy. WTF, DU, WTFF!?!? bettyellen Dec 2012 #173

I'm not so sure men are your biggest obstacle in this Major Nikon Dec 2012 #180

Great point- I think progressive men should take more of an interest in public education bettyellen Dec 2012 #186

I tried to show my point of view further up and got jumped on Hydra Dec 2012 #188

Thank you. If men object to being Schrodinger's Rapist Warpy Dec 2012 #201

It's true but it is an unecessarily incendiary way to phrase it. Bonobo Dec 2012 #204