General Discussion

Flatulo

(5,005 posts)

177. I think the real point is that if we could magically make every AR-15 disappear,

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 07:46 PM

Dec 2012

people would just go buy Ruger Mini-14s or other comparable rifle. They fire the same round and are equipped with a removable magazine. Functionally, there is no difference from an AR-15.

If we banned every semi-auto rifle, people would kill each other with muskets, and then swords if needed, and eventually mallets and rocks.

People hell bent on destruction like the AR-15 because it looks like a real machine gun, ie, scary. It makes them feel tougher/meaner/stronger than the people they want to terrorize. On that basis alone it may make sense to begin restricting them.

Full disclosure - I have an AR-15 and back in the day enjoyed target shooting with it. I haven't touched it in many years because they're a bitch to clean.

I could live with a ban, but I don't think it would accomplish the desired goal - less violence.

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The latest murderer [View all] malaise Dec 2012 OP

Was he high? Remmah2 Dec 2012 #1

On gunpowder proud2BlibKansan Dec 2012 #2

You forgot the sarcasm thingie progressoid Dec 2012 #50

A couple of points me b zola Dec 2012 #61

Indeed. Lizzie Poppet Dec 2012 #63

Why didn't you ask: Was he drunk? Was he on meds? Bias much? nt patrice Dec 2012 #100

If he had been high BainsBane Dec 2012 #117

Well... Ohio Joe Dec 2012 #191

Yes: He was high on his God-given Second Amendment RIGHTS! Warren Religion Dec 2012 #208

It is sad that so many people will have such a horrific event they need to absorb rustydog Dec 2012 #3

I looked at the photos of the two persons he killed malaise Dec 2012 #5

I used to wonder what it would be like to live in Israel, Iraq, Mexico soleft Dec 2012 #7

You're right. And our American mass violence is even more senseless. nt Chorophyll Dec 2012 #54

Turned on Florida news at 6.00pm malaise Dec 2012 #167

it seems there are a lot of bank robberies lately. don't know how valid that perception is but it HiPointDem Dec 2012 #198

More bloody victories for the NRA. Arugula Latte Dec 2012 #4

The shooter had only two speeding tickets. He had no criminal record. bluestate10 Dec 2012 #240

Other stories say he stole the gun. nt hack89 Dec 2012 #6

There are jsut too many guns period malaise Dec 2012 #9

Once you get rid of the illegal ones hack89 Dec 2012 #13

We can talk about the legal ones right damn now. Chorophyll Dec 2012 #56

This message was self-deleted by its author hack89 Dec 2012 #58

Including knives and Bow/arrow AlexSatan Dec 2012 #74

How many people die from intentionally inflicted knife wounds JDPriestly Dec 2012 #128

the more you talk about it, the worse it will get. trouble.smith Dec 2012 #165

Is it because I'M TALKING ABOUT IT? Chorophyll Dec 2012 #249

I've already explained it but you won't hear it. Keep playing politics with this. trouble.smith Dec 2012 #250

Where have you explained it? Chorophyll Dec 2012 #252

when you threaten to ban guns, you incite panic buying trouble.smith Dec 2012 #253

That's the most specious argument I've ever heard in my life. Chorophyll Dec 2012 #254

I'm sure it's a bitter pill to swallow, the truth often is. trouble.smith Dec 2012 #256

Problem is that the illegal guns all started out legal. JDPriestly Dec 2012 #118

How does registration stop mass killings? hack89 Dec 2012 #139

If guns were registered and owners held responsible for knowing JDPriestly Dec 2012 #193

That won't stop violence hack89 Dec 2012 #194

No. I do not want to ban guns. JDPriestly Dec 2012 #199

Ok - thanks for the polite conversation hack89 Dec 2012 #202

Austria is a mountainous country with lots of game and a culture JDPriestly Dec 2012 #241

Very good blueamy66 Dec 2012 #209

I am wondering where the guns in Jamaica come from Hangingon Dec 2012 #62

Like Mexico, a lot of them come from US gun stores. DanTex Dec 2012 #70

Sure be interested in something to back that up. Hangingon Dec 2012 #73

LOL. I didn't realize there were still some gun nuts pushing Fast and Furious conspiracy theories. DanTex Dec 2012 #89

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! malaise Dec 2012 #186

Fast and Furious? RetroLounge Dec 2012 #192

Most come from the US malaise Dec 2012 #180

whether he stole it or not rbrnmw Dec 2012 #83

So what do you suggest? hack89 Dec 2012 #87

registration and licensing maxsolomon Dec 2012 #108

I have no problem licensing guns like cars hack89 Dec 2012 #142

other countries do the police interviews maxsolomon Dec 2012 #179

There are always some willing to give the police arbitrary power over someone else. hack89 Dec 2012 #183

i am not contending that there is an epidemic of gun violence maxsolomon Dec 2012 #231

Suicides are a mental health problem hack89 Dec 2012 #233

no, the intersection of handguns and suicide is not simply a mental health problem: maxsolomon Dec 2012 #238

Just remember that you have never been safer hack89 Dec 2012 #239

He didn't BUY anything - he STOLE it - Indydem Dec 2012 #8

From what I heard, it was a friend. Tommy_Carcetti Dec 2012 #17

+1 Brazillion Myrina Dec 2012 #29

"you gun enthusiasts aren't out of the woods yet" Remmah2 Dec 2012 #33

If one wishes to be an apologist..... Tommy_Carcetti Dec 2012 #36

Even if you do nothing else, silence is assent. & Maybe the rest of us would be okay with patrice Dec 2012 #94

I would want to distance myself from gun enthusiasts, too. morningfog Dec 2012 #210

"you gun enthusiasts aren't out of the woods yet" Lizzie Poppet Dec 2012 #51

No, I'm sorry. Tommy_Carcetti Dec 2012 #53

Thank you. Seriously. Chorophyll Dec 2012 #57

Feel free to provide said "facts." Lizzie Poppet Dec 2012 #59

Well others have made that position. Tommy_Carcetti Dec 2012 #67

Thanks. Lizzie Poppet Dec 2012 #72

Since 35,000 people are killed in auto collisions every year, does that make every licenesed driver jtuck004 Dec 2012 #68

Guns = Cars. Gee, I haven't heard that one before. Tommy_Carcetti Dec 2012 #69

Sure. And vehicles are used for intentional homicide AlexSatan Dec 2012 #78

And non-mass killings? Tommy_Carcetti Dec 2012 #99

I thought the discussion and the angst AlexSatan Dec 2012 #116

Who said most gun homicides are gang related? DanTex Dec 2012 #121

The Nat'l Institute of Justice AlexSatan Dec 2012 #125

LOL. You probably want to take a closer look at that chart. DanTex Dec 2012 #134

I realize that AlexSatan Dec 2012 #143

LOL again. Did you try googling "gang homicide statistics"? DanTex Dec 2012 #145

I stand corrected AlexSatan Dec 2012 #153

Wow, that's a first -- someone in a gun debate admits they were mistaken. DanTex Dec 2012 #156

Facts win every time malaise Dec 2012 #168

The "angst" is about gun related violence. Tommy_Carcetti Dec 2012 #211

So other violence is OK, right? AlexSatan Dec 2012 #215

Guns are the only weapons with a major lobby that obstructs all regulations. Tommy_Carcetti Dec 2012 #222

It is also the only one covered by the Constitution AlexSatan Dec 2012 #225

Does the car lobby advocate the use of cars as a weapon? Tommy_Carcetti Dec 2012 #226

No gun lobbyists advocate using the guns for homicide AlexSatan Dec 2012 #228

Homicide does not equal murder. Tommy_Carcetti Dec 2012 #229

So this is about numbers. How is more of some 1 thing that is not intrinsically valuable in and patrice Dec 2012 #131

Bingo AlexSatan Dec 2012 #146

If that means anything at all, it means that MEANWHILE the killing has to stop. This idea that patrice Dec 2012 #160

No, false-analogy responsibility=false-analogy responsibility. PavePusher Dec 2012 #80

Just wait till you get to guns = swimming pools! DanTex Dec 2012 #102

Well, baby, you've heard it now <G>. jtuck004 Dec 2012 #123

Is every drinker complicit in the damage done by alcohol? hack89 Dec 2012 #77

Gun owners are under greater responsiblity to ensure the safety of deadly weapons. Tommy_Carcetti Dec 2012 #110

Only their own weapons, correct? hack89 Dec 2012 #135

I'm very responsible with my guns. Bake Dec 2012 #166

Sez who? You? On what authority? n/t PavePusher Dec 2012 #174

It's not just guns, but the use of guns does have a more direct, more highly probable, relationships patrice Dec 2012 #140

Guns are highly regulated compared to alcohol hack89 Dec 2012 #144

Everybody's law abiding.....until they aren't. n/t kurtzapril4 Dec 2012 #120

I find it hilarious when gun enthusiasts try to distinguish themselves from morningfog Dec 2012 #212

My analogy's fine, thanks. Yours? Not so much. Lizzie Poppet Dec 2012 #218

Do you own a car? PavePusher Dec 2012 #79

Nope, sorry. Tommy_Carcetti Dec 2012 #105

Intent doesn't matter. Results do. No-one intends to get their firearms stolen. PavePusher Dec 2012 #136

Why go for the NRA knee-jerk defensive tactic? rustydog Dec 2012 #181

FAIL! Carolina Dec 2012 #158

So when someone does suffer a car death, it's meaningless? PavePusher Dec 2012 #173

"Can be a weapon" versus "is a weapon" Tommy_Carcetti Dec 2012 #213

Thank You, Tommy! Carolina Dec 2012 #237

Ya , cause .... Mangoman Dec 2012 #21

Hunting/target shooting/competition justanidea Dec 2012 #22

You forgot to add- as fast as you can depress the trigger rustydog Dec 2012 #25

AR-15s are not powerful enough to shoot game like deer. hack89 Dec 2012 #31

Good point...OOPS, three are still dead in Oregon from the AR15 rustydog Dec 2012 #38

So you support a ban on on guns that can be used for mass killings? hack89 Dec 2012 #40

There are plenty of ARs set up for hunting. justanidea Dec 2012 #35

A case can be made for the shotgun, for your neighbor's sake though. AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #101

All your cited hunting calibers are far more powerful than most AR-pattern rifles... PavePusher Dec 2012 #85

What the fuck AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #97

What utter comfort to the bereaved families! villager Dec 2012 #30

I didn't mean it that way. justanidea Dec 2012 #37

So what if my family was murdered w/an ax because guns were banned? Remmah2 Dec 2012 #39

Yes, the spate of "mass axings" in our culture -- at workplaces and shopping malls -- is disturbing villager Dec 2012 #64

The UK saw a pretty large spike in knifings after they enacted their near-total gun ban. Flatulo Dec 2012 #172

Are you proposing that wholesale reintroduction of guns into the UK will make violence go down? villager Dec 2012 #178

No, not at all - just that the causes of violence are more complex than Flatulo Dec 2012 #188

Yes, but guns are routinely an "amplifier" of those causes. villager Dec 2012 #230

I see them more as tools. They can be used Flatulo Dec 2012 #242

Well, knives and bats have killed far fewer in history than guns have. villager Dec 2012 #243

Well, throughout history armies slaughtered whole populations with swords and spears. Flatulo Dec 2012 #244

a very false equivalency, as today's events prove. yet again. villager Dec 2012 #248

After today's shootings, I'm finally turning a corner. Flatulo Dec 2012 #255

I am clueless about hunting Mangoman Dec 2012 #32

I own an AR but I don't hunt. justanidea Dec 2012 #44

Well that's great Mangoman Dec 2012 #49

Funny, I missed that part in the Constitution. AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #103

You mean: "Well regulated militia"? rustydog Dec 2012 #152

I do, actually. AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #162

Why should I? PavePusher Dec 2012 #175

I think the real point is that if we could magically make every AR-15 disappear, Flatulo Dec 2012 #177

They do former-republican Dec 2012 #47

AR-15s are military rifles for combat Coyotl Dec 2012 #203

Wikipedia, full of shit as usual. AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #223

The same reason people but throwing knives AlexSatan Dec 2012 #84

You. Must. Protect. Your. Weapon. lapislzi Dec 2012 #27

When there is a way to make anything theft-proof, be sure to let us know, O.K.? n/t PavePusher Dec 2012 #86

Don't put words in my mouth. lapislzi Dec 2012 #104

You seemed to be insinuating that the lawful owner did not properly safeguard his property. PavePusher Dec 2012 #107

True enough. But... lapislzi Dec 2012 #113

Obviously, he didn't properly safeguard his property. kurtzapril4 Dec 2012 #119

This guy is a criminal - he murdered people. Indydem Dec 2012 #127

not really most gunsafes are not as secure as most think. A good safe cost more than most former-republican Dec 2012 #132

I was there in the early 80's. Ranch security. oneshooter Dec 2012 #185

Is this supposed to excuse the NRA? Doctor_J Dec 2012 #81

Assuming controlling firearms will make anything better is a putrid leap of logic. Indydem Dec 2012 #124

You're right! bongbong Dec 2012 #138

Don't forget mass knifings, mass baseball battings, Doctor_J Dec 2012 #184

Ok. AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #224

What did the NRA have to do with this? PavePusher Dec 2012 #154

What does one need to cross the divide from "Murderous" to "Mass Murderer"? wtmusic Dec 2012 #88

What about a bomb? Indydem Dec 2012 #122

Very hard to build a bomb in the heat of the moment. wtmusic Dec 2012 #150

AR-15's are not at all "high powered". No matter how many times you claim they are. n/t PavePusher Dec 2012 #157

Yeah and three people are not at all "dead". wtmusic Dec 2012 #163

Ah, guns as sexual fetishes. Weak sauce. n/t PavePusher Dec 2012 #170

Sexual?? Where'd you get that from? wtmusic Dec 2012 #171

Probably I am.... but not with guns. PavePusher Dec 2012 #176

He (possibly) had the right to buy it, but in fact he stole it. Recursion Dec 2012 #10

Please add a link to the stolen gun story malaise Dec 2012 #11

He stole it from someone he knew, Police say Recursion Dec 2012 #14

Thanks n/t malaise Dec 2012 #15

Here is the link, but it doesn't change the fact, that guns are too readily available rustydog Dec 2012 #18

+1,000 n/t malaise Dec 2012 #20

"I do not know, unless deer have begun shooting back." former-republican Dec 2012 #23

Shit no, I own firearms rustydog Dec 2012 #26

Hint: Because the 2A is not about armed bears. Remmah2 Dec 2012 #43

What makes an AR-pattern rifle not a legitimate hunting weapon? PavePusher Dec 2012 #90

Once again, AR-15's as designed, are not legal for hunting deer. AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #106

There's a lot of other hunting than whitetails former-republican Dec 2012 #141

I don't know, why don't you read the post I was responding to. AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #147

But you are incorrect on that , there are at least 6 states I know of where the .223 is legal former-republican Dec 2012 #151

When did the gun become stolen? RC Dec 2012 #149

According to the news reports it was stolen by the shooter the day prior. n/t PavePusher Dec 2012 #159

Looks like a pleasant enough fellow. Wonder what went wrong? . . . Journeyman Dec 2012 #12

The sad truth is the NRA controls the "discussion" in America rustydog Dec 2012 #19

but the other part of the discussion is not about guns hfojvt Dec 2012 #45

Exactly. n/t DeSwiss Dec 2012 #66

Goddamit, I'm sick of this foolhardy equivocation. Bicoastal Dec 2012 #115

Touche! Carolina Dec 2012 #161

you missed my point hfojvt Dec 2012 #200

Your logic makes no sense. Tommy_Carcetti Dec 2012 #214

some people seem to think we are only talking about guns hfojvt Dec 2012 #232

Objects that only accidentially or negligently cause harm are not by definition "weapons." Tommy_Carcetti Dec 2012 #235

really fixated on the whole guns vs. cars thing hfojvt Dec 2012 #246

I'm only fixated on it because it is repeated ad nauseum by the gun enthusiasts. Tommy_Carcetti Dec 2012 #247

An objects availability and its intended use must be taken into account. neverforget Dec 2012 #190

+1 nt Live and Learn Dec 2012 #207

Anomie maxsolomon Dec 2012 #111

My grandfather used to hunt deer in the winter time... Not Me Dec 2012 #16

They seem to have been able to track this weapon quickly former-republican Dec 2012 #24

Private party or fairgrounds gun show and the sale is untraceable rustydog Dec 2012 #28

Every gun show at the fairgrounds/firehall I've ever been to requires a 4473 and a background check. Remmah2 Dec 2012 #41

I think he's talking about a private sale at a gun show former-republican Dec 2012 #46

It has to differ by state. Remmah2 Dec 2012 #48

The last time I went to kurtzapril4 Dec 2012 #129

Not at all. It just requires some extra police work to do interviews and locate people. n/t PavePusher Dec 2012 #91

My buddy and I secondvariety Dec 2012 #130

Cool story. PavePusher Dec 2012 #164

You'd have to ask him, secondvariety Dec 2012 #182

I guess I was too subtle and you missed my point... PavePusher Dec 2012 #204

And you missed my point. secondvariety Dec 2012 #257

So you seem to be saying that your friend did have criminal history or intent.... PavePusher Dec 2012 #258

THAT'S what troubling to you? secondvariety Dec 2012 #259

The law states that one may not sell a gun to a person if you have reason to believe that the buyer PavePusher Dec 2012 #260

And I'm amused by the fact secondvariety Dec 2012 #261

You were there. You witnessed it. You did not report it to police. PavePusher Dec 2012 #263

Lol. secondvariety Dec 2012 #264

Why can't we just rule the 2nd Amendment only applies to militias? BanTheGOP Dec 2012 #34

Because that would require a constitutional amendment. Lizzie Poppet Dec 2012 #55

Because there are 5 right-wing justices on the supreme court. DanTex Dec 2012 #71

Correctomundo!! BanTheGOP Dec 2012 #148

What are you smoking? Please do not tell me that you actually believe that Flatulo Dec 2012 #189

I give you two links... BanTheGOP Dec 2012 #234

I have a big problem with the fist part of Article 25. Flatulo Dec 2012 #236

Upon further examination, I see the UN document also guarantees private property rights, Flatulo Dec 2012 #245

Article 5 of the Constitution awaits you. Go hog wild. n/t PavePusher Dec 2012 #95

Now, now, he could have just as easily gone on a murder spree with rocks Capt. Obvious Dec 2012 #42

Bombs. progressoid Dec 2012 #52

Just the hard ones...NRA sez 17,556 are killed with quartz every year. wtmusic Dec 2012 #82

The more guns manufactured-the more guns stolen. ErikJ Dec 2012 #60

No, the gun industry's lobby is the NSSF Recursion Dec 2012 #227

Great thread title. nt raccoon Dec 2012 #65

As it turns out, he stole it. PavePusher Dec 2012 #75

young handsome guy. Liberal_in_LA Dec 2012 #76

If only all the other shoppers had AR-15 assult rifles taught_me_patience Dec 2012 #92

Looks like a kid. I wonder what happened to him to twist up his mind so badly. slackmaster Dec 2012 #93

+++1! patrice Dec 2012 #96

Yep he's way too young for this end malaise Dec 2012 #137

Since the second amendment was adopted in 1791............. George II Dec 2012 #98

In 1791 there existed a 20 shot rifle. AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #109

Okay, fine..........let's include teh Girandoni Repeating Rifle, not an AK-46. George II Dec 2012 #196

Why? AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #197

Did you read your post to which I responded? George II Dec 2012 #206

Sure. AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #217

Free speech should not include telephones? Freedom of the press not online? dmallind Dec 2012 #114

The Constitution was amended to expand the vote, it wasn't amended to expand........ George II Dec 2012 #195

There is no restriction of "assault rifles" (which you probably can't define) inherent.... PavePusher Dec 2012 #221

zzzzzzzzzzzz Skittles Dec 2012 #112

Yes sir/m'aam! n/t kurtzapril4 Dec 2012 #133

Oh, the NRA backs him libodem Dec 2012 #126

where were the concealed carriers? onethatcares Dec 2012 #155

Depending on the state you live in, out of a crowd of 30 people, you can assume 7 have a permit to AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #220

There is plenty of reason to oppose the NRA without making crap up, even as snark. PavePusher Dec 2012 #169

You think this killing won't make the gun manufacturers more money? Fumesucker Dec 2012 #201

"more"? Oregon already has CC. Not sure how to make it "more". PavePusher Dec 2012 #205

I'm not in Oregon, are you? Fumesucker Dec 2012 #216

Interesting hypothesis.... but your facetiousness really isn't helpfull. n/t PavePusher Dec 2012 #219

Post removed Post removed Dec 2012 #187

Not the latest anymore mercuryblues Dec 2012 #251

I had the same thought malaise Dec 2012 #262