General Discussion

Tommy_Carcetti

(44,552 posts)

214. Your logic makes no sense.

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 11:07 AM

Dec 2012

It's okay to discuss ways to help people with mental illness. Of that, I'm sure both you and I agree.

But you can't discuss people with mental illness getting access to guns. Apparently, that's verbotten.

Why is okay to discuss one problem but not the other? As if discussing the former absolves us from ever having to discuss the latter, which is a very real problem (See Holmes, Loughner, etc.)

The conversation is not governed that way. It doesn't have to follow your terms and conditions. We shouldn't have to stick our head in the sand regarding very real problems just because it offends some people's sensibilities about their prized possessions.

Guns are far and away the favored tools in most murders, including mass murders. They are efficient and can be used at a safe distance. It is easier to kill with a gun, a tool designed with the intent to kill/injure/simulate killing/injuring, than just about any other tool. They do not require close personal proximity, such as cars, knives or other blunt/sharp instruments. They do not require complex assembly, as do bombs. I'm not saying we need to outlaw guns in their entirety, I'm just saying that they need to be held up to higher scrutiny than objects that were not designed with the intent to be used as a lethal weapons, i.e. cars.

Repeat after me: Cars are not guns. Cars are not guns. Cars are not guns........

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The latest murderer [View all] malaise Dec 2012 OP

Was he high? Remmah2 Dec 2012 #1

On gunpowder proud2BlibKansan Dec 2012 #2

You forgot the sarcasm thingie progressoid Dec 2012 #50

A couple of points me b zola Dec 2012 #61

Indeed. Lizzie Poppet Dec 2012 #63

Why didn't you ask: Was he drunk? Was he on meds? Bias much? nt patrice Dec 2012 #100

If he had been high BainsBane Dec 2012 #117

Well... Ohio Joe Dec 2012 #191

Yes: He was high on his God-given Second Amendment RIGHTS! Warren Religion Dec 2012 #208

It is sad that so many people will have such a horrific event they need to absorb rustydog Dec 2012 #3

I looked at the photos of the two persons he killed malaise Dec 2012 #5

I used to wonder what it would be like to live in Israel, Iraq, Mexico soleft Dec 2012 #7

You're right. And our American mass violence is even more senseless. nt Chorophyll Dec 2012 #54

Turned on Florida news at 6.00pm malaise Dec 2012 #167

it seems there are a lot of bank robberies lately. don't know how valid that perception is but it HiPointDem Dec 2012 #198

More bloody victories for the NRA. Arugula Latte Dec 2012 #4

The shooter had only two speeding tickets. He had no criminal record. bluestate10 Dec 2012 #240

Other stories say he stole the gun. nt hack89 Dec 2012 #6

There are jsut too many guns period malaise Dec 2012 #9

Once you get rid of the illegal ones hack89 Dec 2012 #13

We can talk about the legal ones right damn now. Chorophyll Dec 2012 #56

This message was self-deleted by its author hack89 Dec 2012 #58

Including knives and Bow/arrow AlexSatan Dec 2012 #74

How many people die from intentionally inflicted knife wounds JDPriestly Dec 2012 #128

the more you talk about it, the worse it will get. trouble.smith Dec 2012 #165

Is it because I'M TALKING ABOUT IT? Chorophyll Dec 2012 #249

I've already explained it but you won't hear it. Keep playing politics with this. trouble.smith Dec 2012 #250

Where have you explained it? Chorophyll Dec 2012 #252

when you threaten to ban guns, you incite panic buying trouble.smith Dec 2012 #253

That's the most specious argument I've ever heard in my life. Chorophyll Dec 2012 #254

I'm sure it's a bitter pill to swallow, the truth often is. trouble.smith Dec 2012 #256

Problem is that the illegal guns all started out legal. JDPriestly Dec 2012 #118

How does registration stop mass killings? hack89 Dec 2012 #139

If guns were registered and owners held responsible for knowing JDPriestly Dec 2012 #193

That won't stop violence hack89 Dec 2012 #194

No. I do not want to ban guns. JDPriestly Dec 2012 #199

Ok - thanks for the polite conversation hack89 Dec 2012 #202

Austria is a mountainous country with lots of game and a culture JDPriestly Dec 2012 #241

Very good blueamy66 Dec 2012 #209

I am wondering where the guns in Jamaica come from Hangingon Dec 2012 #62

Like Mexico, a lot of them come from US gun stores. DanTex Dec 2012 #70

Sure be interested in something to back that up. Hangingon Dec 2012 #73

LOL. I didn't realize there were still some gun nuts pushing Fast and Furious conspiracy theories. DanTex Dec 2012 #89

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! malaise Dec 2012 #186

Fast and Furious? RetroLounge Dec 2012 #192

Most come from the US malaise Dec 2012 #180

whether he stole it or not rbrnmw Dec 2012 #83

So what do you suggest? hack89 Dec 2012 #87

registration and licensing maxsolomon Dec 2012 #108

I have no problem licensing guns like cars hack89 Dec 2012 #142

other countries do the police interviews maxsolomon Dec 2012 #179

There are always some willing to give the police arbitrary power over someone else. hack89 Dec 2012 #183

i am not contending that there is an epidemic of gun violence maxsolomon Dec 2012 #231

Suicides are a mental health problem hack89 Dec 2012 #233

no, the intersection of handguns and suicide is not simply a mental health problem: maxsolomon Dec 2012 #238

Just remember that you have never been safer hack89 Dec 2012 #239

He didn't BUY anything - he STOLE it - Indydem Dec 2012 #8

From what I heard, it was a friend. Tommy_Carcetti Dec 2012 #17

+1 Brazillion Myrina Dec 2012 #29

"you gun enthusiasts aren't out of the woods yet" Remmah2 Dec 2012 #33

If one wishes to be an apologist..... Tommy_Carcetti Dec 2012 #36

Even if you do nothing else, silence is assent. & Maybe the rest of us would be okay with patrice Dec 2012 #94

I would want to distance myself from gun enthusiasts, too. morningfog Dec 2012 #210

"you gun enthusiasts aren't out of the woods yet" Lizzie Poppet Dec 2012 #51

No, I'm sorry. Tommy_Carcetti Dec 2012 #53

Thank you. Seriously. Chorophyll Dec 2012 #57

Feel free to provide said "facts." Lizzie Poppet Dec 2012 #59

Well others have made that position. Tommy_Carcetti Dec 2012 #67

Thanks. Lizzie Poppet Dec 2012 #72

Since 35,000 people are killed in auto collisions every year, does that make every licenesed driver jtuck004 Dec 2012 #68

Guns = Cars. Gee, I haven't heard that one before. Tommy_Carcetti Dec 2012 #69

Sure. And vehicles are used for intentional homicide AlexSatan Dec 2012 #78

And non-mass killings? Tommy_Carcetti Dec 2012 #99

I thought the discussion and the angst AlexSatan Dec 2012 #116

Who said most gun homicides are gang related? DanTex Dec 2012 #121

The Nat'l Institute of Justice AlexSatan Dec 2012 #125

LOL. You probably want to take a closer look at that chart. DanTex Dec 2012 #134

I realize that AlexSatan Dec 2012 #143

LOL again. Did you try googling "gang homicide statistics"? DanTex Dec 2012 #145

I stand corrected AlexSatan Dec 2012 #153

Wow, that's a first -- someone in a gun debate admits they were mistaken. DanTex Dec 2012 #156

Facts win every time malaise Dec 2012 #168

The "angst" is about gun related violence. Tommy_Carcetti Dec 2012 #211

So other violence is OK, right? AlexSatan Dec 2012 #215

Guns are the only weapons with a major lobby that obstructs all regulations. Tommy_Carcetti Dec 2012 #222

It is also the only one covered by the Constitution AlexSatan Dec 2012 #225

Does the car lobby advocate the use of cars as a weapon? Tommy_Carcetti Dec 2012 #226

No gun lobbyists advocate using the guns for homicide AlexSatan Dec 2012 #228

Homicide does not equal murder. Tommy_Carcetti Dec 2012 #229

So this is about numbers. How is more of some 1 thing that is not intrinsically valuable in and patrice Dec 2012 #131

Bingo AlexSatan Dec 2012 #146

If that means anything at all, it means that MEANWHILE the killing has to stop. This idea that patrice Dec 2012 #160

No, false-analogy responsibility=false-analogy responsibility. PavePusher Dec 2012 #80

Just wait till you get to guns = swimming pools! DanTex Dec 2012 #102

Well, baby, you've heard it now <G>. jtuck004 Dec 2012 #123

Is every drinker complicit in the damage done by alcohol? hack89 Dec 2012 #77

Gun owners are under greater responsiblity to ensure the safety of deadly weapons. Tommy_Carcetti Dec 2012 #110

Only their own weapons, correct? hack89 Dec 2012 #135

I'm very responsible with my guns. Bake Dec 2012 #166

Sez who? You? On what authority? n/t PavePusher Dec 2012 #174

It's not just guns, but the use of guns does have a more direct, more highly probable, relationships patrice Dec 2012 #140

Guns are highly regulated compared to alcohol hack89 Dec 2012 #144

Everybody's law abiding.....until they aren't. n/t kurtzapril4 Dec 2012 #120

I find it hilarious when gun enthusiasts try to distinguish themselves from morningfog Dec 2012 #212

My analogy's fine, thanks. Yours? Not so much. Lizzie Poppet Dec 2012 #218

Do you own a car? PavePusher Dec 2012 #79

Nope, sorry. Tommy_Carcetti Dec 2012 #105

Intent doesn't matter. Results do. No-one intends to get their firearms stolen. PavePusher Dec 2012 #136

Why go for the NRA knee-jerk defensive tactic? rustydog Dec 2012 #181

FAIL! Carolina Dec 2012 #158

So when someone does suffer a car death, it's meaningless? PavePusher Dec 2012 #173

"Can be a weapon" versus "is a weapon" Tommy_Carcetti Dec 2012 #213

Thank You, Tommy! Carolina Dec 2012 #237

Ya , cause .... Mangoman Dec 2012 #21

Hunting/target shooting/competition justanidea Dec 2012 #22

You forgot to add- as fast as you can depress the trigger rustydog Dec 2012 #25

AR-15s are not powerful enough to shoot game like deer. hack89 Dec 2012 #31

Good point...OOPS, three are still dead in Oregon from the AR15 rustydog Dec 2012 #38

So you support a ban on on guns that can be used for mass killings? hack89 Dec 2012 #40

There are plenty of ARs set up for hunting. justanidea Dec 2012 #35

A case can be made for the shotgun, for your neighbor's sake though. AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #101

All your cited hunting calibers are far more powerful than most AR-pattern rifles... PavePusher Dec 2012 #85

What the fuck AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #97

What utter comfort to the bereaved families! villager Dec 2012 #30

I didn't mean it that way. justanidea Dec 2012 #37

So what if my family was murdered w/an ax because guns were banned? Remmah2 Dec 2012 #39

Yes, the spate of "mass axings" in our culture -- at workplaces and shopping malls -- is disturbing villager Dec 2012 #64

The UK saw a pretty large spike in knifings after they enacted their near-total gun ban. Flatulo Dec 2012 #172

Are you proposing that wholesale reintroduction of guns into the UK will make violence go down? villager Dec 2012 #178

No, not at all - just that the causes of violence are more complex than Flatulo Dec 2012 #188

Yes, but guns are routinely an "amplifier" of those causes. villager Dec 2012 #230

I see them more as tools. They can be used Flatulo Dec 2012 #242

Well, knives and bats have killed far fewer in history than guns have. villager Dec 2012 #243

Well, throughout history armies slaughtered whole populations with swords and spears. Flatulo Dec 2012 #244

a very false equivalency, as today's events prove. yet again. villager Dec 2012 #248

After today's shootings, I'm finally turning a corner. Flatulo Dec 2012 #255

I am clueless about hunting Mangoman Dec 2012 #32

I own an AR but I don't hunt. justanidea Dec 2012 #44

Well that's great Mangoman Dec 2012 #49

Funny, I missed that part in the Constitution. AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #103

You mean: "Well regulated militia"? rustydog Dec 2012 #152

I do, actually. AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #162

Why should I? PavePusher Dec 2012 #175

I think the real point is that if we could magically make every AR-15 disappear, Flatulo Dec 2012 #177

They do former-republican Dec 2012 #47

AR-15s are military rifles for combat Coyotl Dec 2012 #203

Wikipedia, full of shit as usual. AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #223

The same reason people but throwing knives AlexSatan Dec 2012 #84

You. Must. Protect. Your. Weapon. lapislzi Dec 2012 #27

When there is a way to make anything theft-proof, be sure to let us know, O.K.? n/t PavePusher Dec 2012 #86

Don't put words in my mouth. lapislzi Dec 2012 #104

You seemed to be insinuating that the lawful owner did not properly safeguard his property. PavePusher Dec 2012 #107

True enough. But... lapislzi Dec 2012 #113

Obviously, he didn't properly safeguard his property. kurtzapril4 Dec 2012 #119

This guy is a criminal - he murdered people. Indydem Dec 2012 #127

not really most gunsafes are not as secure as most think. A good safe cost more than most former-republican Dec 2012 #132

I was there in the early 80's. Ranch security. oneshooter Dec 2012 #185

Is this supposed to excuse the NRA? Doctor_J Dec 2012 #81

Assuming controlling firearms will make anything better is a putrid leap of logic. Indydem Dec 2012 #124

You're right! bongbong Dec 2012 #138

Don't forget mass knifings, mass baseball battings, Doctor_J Dec 2012 #184

Ok. AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #224

What did the NRA have to do with this? PavePusher Dec 2012 #154

What does one need to cross the divide from "Murderous" to "Mass Murderer"? wtmusic Dec 2012 #88

What about a bomb? Indydem Dec 2012 #122

Very hard to build a bomb in the heat of the moment. wtmusic Dec 2012 #150

AR-15's are not at all "high powered". No matter how many times you claim they are. n/t PavePusher Dec 2012 #157

Yeah and three people are not at all "dead". wtmusic Dec 2012 #163

Ah, guns as sexual fetishes. Weak sauce. n/t PavePusher Dec 2012 #170

Sexual?? Where'd you get that from? wtmusic Dec 2012 #171

Probably I am.... but not with guns. PavePusher Dec 2012 #176

He (possibly) had the right to buy it, but in fact he stole it. Recursion Dec 2012 #10

Please add a link to the stolen gun story malaise Dec 2012 #11

He stole it from someone he knew, Police say Recursion Dec 2012 #14

Thanks n/t malaise Dec 2012 #15

Here is the link, but it doesn't change the fact, that guns are too readily available rustydog Dec 2012 #18

+1,000 n/t malaise Dec 2012 #20

"I do not know, unless deer have begun shooting back." former-republican Dec 2012 #23

Shit no, I own firearms rustydog Dec 2012 #26

Hint: Because the 2A is not about armed bears. Remmah2 Dec 2012 #43

What makes an AR-pattern rifle not a legitimate hunting weapon? PavePusher Dec 2012 #90

Once again, AR-15's as designed, are not legal for hunting deer. AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #106

There's a lot of other hunting than whitetails former-republican Dec 2012 #141

I don't know, why don't you read the post I was responding to. AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #147

But you are incorrect on that , there are at least 6 states I know of where the .223 is legal former-republican Dec 2012 #151

When did the gun become stolen? RC Dec 2012 #149

According to the news reports it was stolen by the shooter the day prior. n/t PavePusher Dec 2012 #159

Looks like a pleasant enough fellow. Wonder what went wrong? . . . Journeyman Dec 2012 #12

The sad truth is the NRA controls the "discussion" in America rustydog Dec 2012 #19

but the other part of the discussion is not about guns hfojvt Dec 2012 #45

Exactly. n/t DeSwiss Dec 2012 #66

Goddamit, I'm sick of this foolhardy equivocation. Bicoastal Dec 2012 #115

Touche! Carolina Dec 2012 #161

you missed my point hfojvt Dec 2012 #200

Your logic makes no sense. Tommy_Carcetti Dec 2012 #214

some people seem to think we are only talking about guns hfojvt Dec 2012 #232

Objects that only accidentially or negligently cause harm are not by definition "weapons." Tommy_Carcetti Dec 2012 #235

really fixated on the whole guns vs. cars thing hfojvt Dec 2012 #246

I'm only fixated on it because it is repeated ad nauseum by the gun enthusiasts. Tommy_Carcetti Dec 2012 #247

An objects availability and its intended use must be taken into account. neverforget Dec 2012 #190

+1 nt Live and Learn Dec 2012 #207

Anomie maxsolomon Dec 2012 #111

My grandfather used to hunt deer in the winter time... Not Me Dec 2012 #16

They seem to have been able to track this weapon quickly former-republican Dec 2012 #24

Private party or fairgrounds gun show and the sale is untraceable rustydog Dec 2012 #28

Every gun show at the fairgrounds/firehall I've ever been to requires a 4473 and a background check. Remmah2 Dec 2012 #41

I think he's talking about a private sale at a gun show former-republican Dec 2012 #46

It has to differ by state. Remmah2 Dec 2012 #48

The last time I went to kurtzapril4 Dec 2012 #129

Not at all. It just requires some extra police work to do interviews and locate people. n/t PavePusher Dec 2012 #91

My buddy and I secondvariety Dec 2012 #130

Cool story. PavePusher Dec 2012 #164

You'd have to ask him, secondvariety Dec 2012 #182

I guess I was too subtle and you missed my point... PavePusher Dec 2012 #204

And you missed my point. secondvariety Dec 2012 #257

So you seem to be saying that your friend did have criminal history or intent.... PavePusher Dec 2012 #258

THAT'S what troubling to you? secondvariety Dec 2012 #259

The law states that one may not sell a gun to a person if you have reason to believe that the buyer PavePusher Dec 2012 #260

And I'm amused by the fact secondvariety Dec 2012 #261

You were there. You witnessed it. You did not report it to police. PavePusher Dec 2012 #263

Lol. secondvariety Dec 2012 #264

Why can't we just rule the 2nd Amendment only applies to militias? BanTheGOP Dec 2012 #34

Because that would require a constitutional amendment. Lizzie Poppet Dec 2012 #55

Because there are 5 right-wing justices on the supreme court. DanTex Dec 2012 #71

Correctomundo!! BanTheGOP Dec 2012 #148

What are you smoking? Please do not tell me that you actually believe that Flatulo Dec 2012 #189

I give you two links... BanTheGOP Dec 2012 #234

I have a big problem with the fist part of Article 25. Flatulo Dec 2012 #236

Upon further examination, I see the UN document also guarantees private property rights, Flatulo Dec 2012 #245

Article 5 of the Constitution awaits you. Go hog wild. n/t PavePusher Dec 2012 #95

Now, now, he could have just as easily gone on a murder spree with rocks Capt. Obvious Dec 2012 #42

Bombs. progressoid Dec 2012 #52

Just the hard ones...NRA sez 17,556 are killed with quartz every year. wtmusic Dec 2012 #82

The more guns manufactured-the more guns stolen. ErikJ Dec 2012 #60

No, the gun industry's lobby is the NSSF Recursion Dec 2012 #227

Great thread title. nt raccoon Dec 2012 #65

As it turns out, he stole it. PavePusher Dec 2012 #75

young handsome guy. Liberal_in_LA Dec 2012 #76

If only all the other shoppers had AR-15 assult rifles taught_me_patience Dec 2012 #92

Looks like a kid. I wonder what happened to him to twist up his mind so badly. slackmaster Dec 2012 #93

+++1! patrice Dec 2012 #96

Yep he's way too young for this end malaise Dec 2012 #137

Since the second amendment was adopted in 1791............. George II Dec 2012 #98

In 1791 there existed a 20 shot rifle. AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #109

Okay, fine..........let's include teh Girandoni Repeating Rifle, not an AK-46. George II Dec 2012 #196

Why? AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #197

Did you read your post to which I responded? George II Dec 2012 #206

Sure. AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #217

Free speech should not include telephones? Freedom of the press not online? dmallind Dec 2012 #114

The Constitution was amended to expand the vote, it wasn't amended to expand........ George II Dec 2012 #195

There is no restriction of "assault rifles" (which you probably can't define) inherent.... PavePusher Dec 2012 #221

zzzzzzzzzzzz Skittles Dec 2012 #112

Yes sir/m'aam! n/t kurtzapril4 Dec 2012 #133

Oh, the NRA backs him libodem Dec 2012 #126

where were the concealed carriers? onethatcares Dec 2012 #155

Depending on the state you live in, out of a crowd of 30 people, you can assume 7 have a permit to AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #220

There is plenty of reason to oppose the NRA without making crap up, even as snark. PavePusher Dec 2012 #169

You think this killing won't make the gun manufacturers more money? Fumesucker Dec 2012 #201

"more"? Oregon already has CC. Not sure how to make it "more". PavePusher Dec 2012 #205

I'm not in Oregon, are you? Fumesucker Dec 2012 #216

Interesting hypothesis.... but your facetiousness really isn't helpfull. n/t PavePusher Dec 2012 #219

Post removed Post removed Dec 2012 #187

Not the latest anymore mercuryblues Dec 2012 #251

I had the same thought malaise Dec 2012 #262