General Discussion

redqueen

(115,186 posts)

212. " a lot of women INTENTIONALLY go out and get that drunk on purpose ...

Sat Jan 21, 2012, 08:29 PM

Jan 2012

so as to give themselves permission to fool around with a guy."

*That* is the comment I was addressing.

Now, check it out in context:

"I have to say that I have been in the situation on quite a number of occasions in the last 10 years of having been with a date who got too drunk for her own good and I've always been that guy who did NOT take advantage when he certainly could have.

What have I learned about this type of situation in the past few years is that always acting like a gentleman perpetually gets me put into "the friend zone" and that a lot of women INTENTIONALLY go out and get that drunk on purpose so as to give themselves permission to fool around with a guy.

When the guy doesn't go for it under these circumstances, she decides he lacks assertiveness rather than deciding that he is a gentleman worthy of her affection. Ultimately the guy who always acts the gentleman almost always gets rejected for some more exciting "dangerous" guy who won't think twice about taking advantage.

In spite of having learned this bit of politically incorrect dating reality in the last few years, I still have had it programmed into me so long that I shouldn't take advantage in situations like this that I won't do it even now."

If you think that idea is fine and dandy, in context, then I don't really know what else to say to you.

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Stop Telling Women How to Not Get Raped [View all] redqueen Jan 2012 OP

But if men stopped raping then women wouldn't get so many lectures and blame-the-victim anymore. Quantess Jan 2012 #1

Indeed. I'm all for teaching basic safety and awareness, which are good things for everyone to learn arcane1 Jan 2012 #2

How so? I see the OP as promoting a way to start addressing the cause -- Remember Me Jan 2012 #52

I was generalizing, not speaking specifically to the OP n/t arcane1 Jan 2012 #119

Yes. The subject line is simply misleading. Orsino Jan 2012 #163

Can we do both? Hugabear Jan 2012 #3

Yeah, when people don't even know what rape is, redqueen Jan 2012 #7

can you point me somewhere reputable and non-anectdotal where the existence of date-rape is... ret5hd Jan 2012 #28

Expounded as in explained? redqueen Jan 2012 #29

well, just point me towards your best source, the on most likely to make me say... ret5hd Jan 2012 #34

Perhaps you could start here ... etherealtruth Jan 2012 #35

1 & 2 are completely anecdotal...a crackpot ga rep and a govt justice employee do not constitute... ret5hd Jan 2012 #40

Susan Estrich is a respected law professor etherealtruth Jan 2012 #42

this article does not speak to denial of date rape, but to minimalizing the crime. ret5hd Jan 2012 #43

Excuse me ...? etherealtruth Jan 2012 #44

"real and prevalent" to you... redqueen Jan 2012 #36

oops, replied to #35 instead of you. please forgive. ret5hd Jan 2012 #41

Not that the FBI is particularly "reputable," but they didn't admit there was such a thing Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #168

I was almost raped in college, and didn't realize it Sarah Ibarruri Jan 2012 #61

That is very common. redqueen Jan 2012 #88

everything in our society directs, leads, conditions to this and we act like seabeyond Jan 2012 #92

That happened to me a few times laundry_queen Jan 2012 #120

It's so weird isn't it? For the longest time I felt that it was part of my role in life to Sarah Ibarruri Jan 2012 #136

I agree. There is always value to teaching people how to avoid being victimized. yellowcanine Jan 2012 #11

Unfortunately, the blame DOES get put on the women by these "guides" Scootaloo Jan 2012 #13

Agreed. We can approach the problem from more than one angle. nt. Hosnon Jan 2012 #170

A balance approach is requried ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2012 #4

Unfortunately people like the Dominique Strauss-Kahns of this world will never learn these lessons, Nye Bevan Jan 2012 #5

Is there a copy of the ad somewhere jberryhill Jan 2012 #6

This article has a picture. redqueen Jan 2012 #8

Oh, wow, that's worse than I thought jberryhill Jan 2012 #9

they sexualized the girl while addressing rape. ONE of the many examples fed to our seabeyond Jan 2012 #94

headline is not very pleasant quinnox Jan 2012 #10

I agree it shouldn't be tossed around lightly. redqueen Jan 2012 #14

yup quinnox Jan 2012 #16

How not to get raped Zalatix Jan 2012 #12

How not to get the point Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #23

Not to speak for the poster you're responding to, mythology Jan 2012 #31

Still missing the point... redqueen Jan 2012 #33

You might as well try to educate lions not to prey on gazelles or whatever. Zalatix Jan 2012 #54

In other words, you're saying that Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #59

No, I am saying that people who are deviant are deviant. Zalatix Jan 2012 #64

Nonsense Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #68

how about if we simple change our language for our younger boys. make sure girl is enthusiastic seabeyond Jan 2012 #89

And stop telling girls it's bad to be that way. redqueen Jan 2012 #93

exactly allow a girl ownership of her sexuality. which is exactly opposite what society does today seabeyond Jan 2012 #96

Enthusiasm shouldn't be confused with consenting. Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #98

i would say, when she says stop, there is no longer the enthusiasm. nt seabeyond Jan 2012 #101

And that goes right back to the original point Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #118

i agree with all of it until the end seabeyond Jan 2012 #122

Thank you. Sera_Bellum Jan 2012 #114

the point is, and must be clear. because a girl says yes seabeyond Jan 2012 #115

that's pretty smart. nt arely staircase Jan 2012 #198

I guess you didn't read what I said. Anyone who fails to obey "no" Zalatix Jan 2012 #133

I did read what you wrote Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #159

How do you suppose to educate someone who excuses spousal rape? Zalatix Jan 2012 #169

First of all, unless you've been there, don't presume to know what it's like Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #174

Excuse me? You're the one cursing and getting irrational. I don't need to know what it's like Zalatix Jan 2012 #175

I am far from irrational. Cursing does not equate to irrationality. Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #185

i read it. what a post. nt seabeyond Jan 2012 #187

That is the best post I've ever seen on DU. redqueen Jan 2012 #188

This post deserves to be an OP varelse Jan 2012 #197

+1 redqueen Jan 2012 #210

THANK YOU! ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ uppityperson Jan 2012 #209

rape most certainly is deviant arely staircase Jan 2012 #199

in their mind, they are not interpreting it as rape. i dont know why people dont get this. seabeyond Jan 2012 #200

Check out the seduction community.. redqueen Jan 2012 #204

i do not know what you are talking. i saw a bit on a thread. seduction has never worked for me. seabeyond Jan 2012 #206

It means if a woman starts resisting your advances for sex redqueen Jan 2012 #207

ya. that. eeew. it was in all the movies. it always made me uncomfortable. nt seabeyond Jan 2012 #211

im sure all sorts of deviants, not only rapists, arely staircase Jan 2012 #216

"Rape" as in "real rape" is "deviant." Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #218

one is either a rapist or not rapist. and if one is a rapist one is deviant - regardless of arely staircase Jan 2012 #222

The problem with this kind of thinking Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #231

uh, you are the one asserting that there is a third category (outside of rapist or not rapist), arely staircase Jan 2012 #233

I think you've completely misunderstood Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #238

as i suspected nt arely staircase Jan 2012 #240

Actually, if you put everything I've posted together... Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #242

seriously, can't you whittle this down to a succinct statement? like, two to three arely staircase Jan 2012 #243

No. I'm not you. Thank the goddess. n/t Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #244

better luck next time. nt arely staircase Jan 2012 #245

I'm not a psychologist, but. . . . Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #217

this is the problem and the refusal to allow this concept to be realized. for whatever reason, this seabeyond Jan 2012 #219

I think in some cases -- maybe here, maybe not -- it's fear Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #220

i think this should be the conversation, the starting point, in the next thread. nt seabeyond Jan 2012 #221

Excellent post. ronnie624 Jan 2012 #152

The problem is that boys and men know it all, too, Lance_Boyle Jan 2012 #82

I dont think they do. redqueen Jan 2012 #84

It's NOT a tiny tiny minority Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #102

Again, you're making the assumption Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #45

That is superb -- brilliant too. Remember Me Jan 2012 #55

Because "assholes who rape" will stop being assholes if only they knew better? mistertrickster Jan 2012 #67

you are more concerned about the rad fems than girls/women being raped. and a boys/mans life ruined seabeyond Jan 2012 #91

exactly Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #103

i have a couple sons. i have a couple of nieces. you can damn well bet have discussed ownership seabeyond Jan 2012 #105

K&R Solly Mack Jan 2012 #15

My sister has 4 daughters - all of them small in stature Sarah Ibarruri Jan 2012 #17

And all those various things, those "safety measures" prove Remember Me Jan 2012 #56

I know. It's a bit of a war zone for us. nt Sarah Ibarruri Jan 2012 #58

I plan on doing both with my children. ZombieHorde Jan 2012 #18

+1000 Remember Me Jan 2012 #235

rec x eleventy billion lapislzi Jan 2012 #19

People don't understand how painful their words can be. Marrah_G Jan 2012 #20

I've never been in a bar-fight. mistertrickster Jan 2012 #21

Please read the essay Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #24

Thank you. redqueen Jan 2012 #25

Looks to me like you're both telling me what I think and attacking me for it at the same time. mistertrickster Jan 2012 #65

No, I most certainly did not tell you what you think. Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #79

You seem to be assuming that women don't do anything to prevent rape lunatica Jan 2012 #86

Excellent response. n/t Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #104

"I also don't know any women who go to bars alone." Sera_Bellum Jan 2012 #117

i lived in reno, a 24 hour town, late shift. i went into bars alone. i had no problem, nor felt seabeyond Jan 2012 #124

I too lived in Reno for a few years; greiner3 Jan 2012 #166

i would be served the booze. a lot. for free. lol lol. seabeyond Jan 2012 #167

Not all men are rapists -- BUT Remember Me Jan 2012 #236

Good idea treestar Jan 2012 #22

BRAVO Ebony Magazine. Matariki Jan 2012 #26

Jackson Katz has been trying to change this paradigm for some time, too. PeaceNikki Jan 2012 #27

Oh yes, I love his work... redqueen Jan 2012 #30

Here's another I literally just found that I think you'll enjoy: PeaceNikki Jan 2012 #32

Evidence-free conclusion . . . mistertrickster Jan 2012 #69

It's called male privilege Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #80

get a girl drunk on a date, men pay for it one way or another, no doesnt mean no.... the simple seabeyond Jan 2012 #99

This bears repeating: "prevention in not really prevention; rather, it's risk reduction," Remember Me Jan 2012 #241

k/r fishwax Jan 2012 #37

I'd like to clear something up. redqueen Jan 2012 #38

I am incredulous etherealtruth Jan 2012 #46

Uh, they're into denying ANY Remember Me Jan 2012 #57

I know etherealtruth Jan 2012 #172

Part of the response may be the caption - which wasn't limited to advertisements. Ms. Toad Jan 2012 #47

My daughters do not need ad campaigns, as I can provide them with basic, common sense advice myself. Nye Bevan Jan 2012 #50

college campus's now have a team of jr and sr that goes to these parties to watch out for the seabeyond Jan 2012 #97

This terrifies me. stevenleser Jan 2012 #157

All of the above. n/t Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #161

so much is about her own empowerment and confidence and that is gained in time. seabeyond Jan 2012 #164

As part of every graduation gift for young women, I give them Gavin DeBecker's "The Gift of Fear" riderinthestorm Jan 2012 #229

I entirely agree with the concept, but seriously lack the faith in testosterone laden persons to Lionessa Jan 2012 #39

You do realize how offensive that is, right? redqueen Jan 2012 #138

agreed. nt seabeyond Jan 2012 #143

"anti-rape campaigns that target young men and boys" vs arely staircase Jan 2012 #48

Fully agree. While boys need to be taught that "no means no" Nye Bevan Jan 2012 #49

they are both very important things to teach - nevermind public service announcements arely staircase Jan 2012 #192

This. n/t lumberjack_jeff Jan 2012 #77

Why is this so hard to understand? EOTE Jan 2012 #127

very good points. i do believe education (of boys and men) can prevent rapes arely staircase Jan 2012 #186

K&R! Louisiana1976 Jan 2012 #51

I suspect this has been asked before but... randome Jan 2012 #53

Because I find them worthy of discussion. redqueen Jan 2012 #81

It's a huge social problem chrisa Jan 2012 #112

Exactly, it's men that need to be told to not rape. Odin2005 Jan 2012 #60

Great idea. Tell bankers not to foreclose on people's houses while you're at it. nt mistertrickster Jan 2012 #75

Correction: it's rapists that need to be told to not rape. Lance_Boyle Jan 2012 #83

Once again, like it or not, ALL MEN are potential rapists Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #106

Or ask my friend who was raped by her BFs friend. Odin2005 Jan 2012 #108

I guess what I dislike is this attitude Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #110

Silly Analogy ProfessorGAC Jan 2012 #128

You're not a rapist, but you are a potential rapist Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #130

Tansy, I'm going to be blunt. Occulus Jan 2012 #140

I have merely stated facts Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #142

Interesting to see the insults thrown around... redqueen Jan 2012 #144

Well? What the hell do you expect? Occulus Jan 2012 #147

*sigh* redqueen Jan 2012 #148

See below. Occulus Jan 2012 #150

It doesn't make any difference. Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #160

Rape is about power, not sex FrodosPet Jan 2012 #246

That's just blatantly offensive Lance_Boyle Jan 2012 #134

Lance, if you go back to the sex/women's issue threads of the past several weeks, Occulus Jan 2012 #135

It's not offensive and it's not wrong -- ALL WOMEN are potential false rape accusers Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #137

Apparently your logic is highly offensive. redqueen Jan 2012 #139

You mean, the thread that just got locked? Occulus Jan 2012 #145

POTENTIAL. You want to go look that up, or keep waving the strawman around? redqueen Jan 2012 #146

Distinction without a difference. Occulus Jan 2012 #149

We're done. redqueen Jan 2012 #151

There you go again Occulus Jan 2012 #154

I would say it's hard to believe that you actually truly do think... redqueen Jan 2012 #156

Saying "all men are potential rapists" does the trick rather nicely. Occulus Jan 2012 #158

No, it's just as logical. And thanks for the nasty picture, too... redqueen Jan 2012 #153

That picture has fuck-all to do with the way a woman looks Occulus Jan 2012 #155

Let's see. Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #162

no they aren't, that is a hateful thing to say. arely staircase Jan 2012 #189

I never said women can't or don't coerce or pester partners into sex Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #191

Just to clarify -- You do understand the difference between "potential" and "future," don't you? Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #193

i think you are being a bit more clear, i think arely staircase Jan 2012 #196

All WOMEN can potentially falsely accuse men of rape. cottonseed Jan 2012 #232

Yeah, I know. I said that. Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #239

Correction: Sera_Bellum Jan 2012 #121

this is the newest study and i cannot find others i have seen on this. it matters with study, seabeyond Jan 2012 #126

Yes, I know Sera_Bellum Jan 2012 #129

ahhhhh. really? wow. it was all layed out. a number of different studies seabeyond Jan 2012 #131

Try using the Wayback Machine or Google Cache... justiceischeap Jan 2012 #132

Thanks for posting that link. redqueen Jan 2012 #141

If there is any one person who explodes the "scary monster" myth Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #194

Yeah, society doesn't want to go down that road yet apparently... redqueen Jan 2012 #205

k&r uppityperson Jan 2012 #62

This article baldly states that "it's not effective" - any reason to believe that? Donald Ian Rankin Jan 2012 #63

Um, maybe if it were effective, women wouldn't still be getting raped? Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #66

"Only about 20% of rapes are reported to law enforcement" mistertrickster Jan 2012 #72

Many rapes are reported to other agencies besides law enforcement Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #73

Then those agencies are covering up a crime that should be prosecuted. nt mistertrickster Jan 2012 #74

Many rapes aren't reported BECAUSE they can't be prosecuted Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #76

Tansy you've done a terrific job of making your point on this thread lunatica Jan 2012 #87

+1 redqueen Jan 2012 #90

Thank you, Lunatica, and redqueen, too Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #107

I think you've obviously got the bona fides to show you know what you're talking about lunatica Jan 2012 #109

What are YOU Sera_Bellum Jan 2012 #123

I would imagine if a woman goes to the hospital after she's been raped justiceischeap Jan 2012 #100

That is not logical, captain. Donald Ian Rankin Jan 2012 #113

a very large group of boys/men you do not address are those that dont see rape, as rape. seabeyond Jan 2012 #116

Yes Sera_Bellum Jan 2012 #125

Post removed Post removed Jan 2012 #71

I heard a LOT of advice when Kobe, Tyson, and Roethlisberger were accused. U4ikLefty Jan 2012 #70

AG Holder announces new FBI definition of rape niyad Jan 2012 #78

K DeathToTheOil Jan 2012 #85

I am so sick and tired of the women being blamed for this LynneSin Jan 2012 #95

I think a "don't rape" campaign could be effective, chrisa Jan 2012 #111

I am way late to this party. Busy few days, but have to add my "voice" of support. nt riderinthestorm Jan 2012 #165

"is it rape?" mzteris Jan 2012 #171

Thank you for posting that here. (nt) redqueen Jan 2012 #173

I'm sorry but a lot of us men would never dream of forcing ourselves on a woman and find this ddeclue Jan 2012 #176

1. There is no broad brushing of "all men as rapists". redqueen Jan 2012 #177

can I call you a whaambulance for telling you the truth? ddeclue Jan 2012 #178

No but you can use one yourself for your excuses for rejection. redqueen Jan 2012 #179

reply ddeclue Jan 2012 #180

i married my friend. i have always liked nice guys, wont accept anything less in my life seabeyond Jan 2012 #182

I've always preferred being sober Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #190

... it just gets worse, doesn't it? redqueen Jan 2012 #183

... ddeclue Jan 2012 #230

Men AND women get drunk as an excuse to have sex Hippo_Tron Jan 2012 #202

If you *assume* that a woman gets drunk in order to have sex with you, redqueen Jan 2012 #203

Again, I don't see why this is so difficult... Hippo_Tron Jan 2012 #208

" a lot of women INTENTIONALLY go out and get that drunk on purpose ... redqueen Jan 2012 #212

As I posted above, I think the poster is frustrated by some bad experiences Hippo_Tron Jan 2012 #214

"too drunk for her own good" redqueen Jan 2012 #215

no I'm not saying most I am saying some... ddeclue Jan 2012 #228

You said "most". redqueen Jan 2012 #237

My rule is that she must be 1) more sober than me. 2) not have had more than 3 glasses of wine in ddeclue Jan 2012 #223

i think those are pretty good ground rules seabeyond Jan 2012 #224

actually I am such an easy drunk (and I am a relatively big guy) that 2 or 3 glasses and I have a ddeclue Jan 2012 #226

bah haha, see. i drink like you do. seabeyond Jan 2012 #227

I think you have entirely too broad a definition of "taking advantage of" Hippo_Tron Jan 2012 #234

You should be honored that several women found you to be trustworthy friends Nikia Jan 2012 #184

that would be great if it wasn't ALWAYS the case. Women love to make friends with me. ddeclue Jan 2012 #225

I think you're broad brushing women based on some bad experiences Hippo_Tron Jan 2012 #213

Sexual Assault Prevention Tips JNelson6563 Jan 2012 #181

Never. Iggo Jan 2012 #195

I agreed up until the part about consumption of alcohol Hippo_Tron Jan 2012 #201