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HereSince1628

(36,063 posts)
42. Not all violence is the same. The cause of safety won't be helped by conflating the unlike
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 08:07 PM
Dec 2012

Last edited Sat Dec 15, 2012, 08:48 PM - Edit history (1)

A blending of these differences will produce a murky mud of reasoning (just as will the mixing of all mental illness into some generic homogenized but fearful mental illness) and that can't help.

America needs to reduce the occurrence of mass murders. No doubt.

Keeping guns out of the hands the mentally ill who represent increased risk of others may be a part of that.

But, creating a mental health screening tool that actually works, that doesn't create operational difficulties, that doesn't wrongly, unreasonably and unjustly deny 2nd amendment or other civil rights (prior restraint, Americans with Disabilities Act, etc), by creating huge discrimination against ALL the mentally ill demands that the nation, and in particular its law and rule makers, get a correct understanding of violence and the populations likely to commit it.

A fair number of variations come quickly to mind.

Some violence is done by the mentally well, and some of it is done by the mentally ill.

Some violence is very severe and destructive and some (angry yelling, arm-waiving, and hitting oneself) is not.

Some violence is done against inanimate objects and some is done against living things.

Some violence is self-harm and some violence is directed at non-self.

Some acts of violence are against strangers, most violence is directed against persons known to the perpetrator.

Some violent acts are impulsive some violent acts are planned.



When we talk about violence in the mentally ill, it is important to realize that, the vast majority of mental illness represents no increased risk of violence to self or to others.

Much of the violent behavior of persons with mental illness is reactionary and impulsive. That means it is done when someone/something stimulates a response, and that response is spontaneous and immediate.
Mass murders are not impulsive they are typically carefully and deliberately planned over a long period.

Much of the violent behavior of persons with mental illness is self-directed only a small fraction of acts of violence by the mentally ill is directed at strangers.



If the goal is to make America safer from mass murder then we must understand mass murder, and differentiate it from other forms of violence.

If there is a psychological profile to be found that can be used to identify potential mass murderers, it must be constructed in a way that isn't confounded by spurious correlations to violence of other forms.

To date, several attempts have been made to create such a profile. They've all proven to find far too many false positives to be reasonably applied as public policy.

The nation may need such a screening tool for potential of future violence to others. (so that persons can reach treatment or possibly institutionalized isolation from society) It may need a new mental health screening tool for purchasing guns. But a useful, legal, tool won't be found via conflations that simply confound all statistical interpretation of the data.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

We as a society have to process this tragedy as it is and for what it is... FarPoint Dec 2012 #1
Denninmi!! blaze Dec 2012 #2
you're not a danger to society. mentally ill doesn't automatically = psychopath dionysus Dec 2012 #3
mental illness can take the best people in the world liberal_at_heart Dec 2012 #6
i agree completely. i think this shooter had severe mentall illness. but let us not act as if dionysus Dec 2012 #10
It's also next to impossible to force an adult to get treatment. LeftInTX Dec 2012 #19
Way too many DUers are steadfastly convinced that is the case, though. (nt) Posteritatis Dec 2012 #61
You have no right to own a gun HockeyMom Dec 2012 #4
you do have a right to own a gun dlwickham Dec 2012 #54
My dear Denninmi... CaliforniaPeggy Dec 2012 #5
Do you really think you should own a gun? I don't. Shivering Jemmy Dec 2012 #7
you know yourself, but you don't know the op cali Dec 2012 #11
If you really, really, really want to keep people from seeking help with mental difficulties Fumesucker Dec 2012 #12
It's not the gun ownership it's the facile baseless fear of the mentally ill HereSince1628 Dec 2012 #16
Well said BainsBane Dec 2012 #21
+1 freshwest Dec 2012 #44
This message was self-deleted by its author HereSince1628 Dec 2012 #39
you said it better than i ever could fizzgig Dec 2012 #40
I come across all sorts of rage-drunk "sane" assholes who shouldnt own 'em either Warren DeMontague Dec 2012 #25
+1 n/t jtuck004 Dec 2012 #47
Exactly where in my post did I say I wanted to own a gun? Denninmi Dec 2012 #26
We're not all broad brush painting... progressoid Dec 2012 #8
Thanks. Denninmi Dec 2012 #28
I am so sorry. I have been enraged by the insensitivity on display here cali Dec 2012 #9
I'm so sorry. Terra Alta Dec 2012 #13
My 28 y.o. son is in now in a psych ward in Oregon. 99th_Monkey Dec 2012 #14
I'm sorry about your son LeftInTX Dec 2012 #22
It is never easy or straightforward. 99th_Monkey Dec 2012 #32
Mental illness is one of the last societal taboos, in that "we don't discuss it" in public Fire Walk With Me Dec 2012 #15
+1 Thanks for the education. n/t Smarmie Doofus Dec 2012 #34
Oh, important addendum... Fire Walk With Me Dec 2012 #46
You're at an increased risk blazeKing Dec 2012 #17
False BainsBane Dec 2012 #23
Yeah. That's helpful. Denninmi Dec 2012 #31
As someone with a Bipolar Diagnosis redStateBlueHeart Dec 2012 #18
What mental illness looks like BainsBane Dec 2012 #20
We need specialized profiling XemaSab Dec 2012 #24
This is America we're talking about here Fumesucker Dec 2012 #45
The vast, vast, vast majority of people with mental health issues are not dangerous. backscatter712 Dec 2012 #27
I worry more about the "tea party" marching around with rifles than I do about the "mentally ill" Fire Walk With Me Dec 2012 #41
Me too. Denninmi Dec 2012 #50
It is human nature and the american way to look for one simple solution for every problem. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #29
So... When did you stop shooting random people in schools and shopping malls? Quantess Dec 2012 #30
Depressive with suicidal tendencies is not a public safety issues. Bipolar in manic phase is. FarCenter Dec 2012 #33
It can be. Denninmi Dec 2012 #35
there are states enacting laws to try to prevent those kinds of behaviors liberal_at_heart Dec 2012 #43
Yes the BS needs to stop. Mental illness does not equate to murderer. TexasTowelie Dec 2012 #36
i think some people use it to distract for the need to have gun control JI7 Dec 2012 #37
Hi, Denninmi! Good to see you! intaglio Dec 2012 #38
Thanks, I am. Denninmi Dec 2012 #51
Not all violence is the same. The cause of safety won't be helped by conflating the unlike HereSince1628 Dec 2012 #42
most people with mental illnesses are not dangerous. Deep13 Dec 2012 #48
Well, I'm pretty sure I'm not dangerous. Denninmi Dec 2012 #52
same here nt Deep13 Dec 2012 #55
People with mental illness are far more likely to be victims rather than perpetrators of crime etherealtruth Dec 2012 #49
A lot of people are being broadbushed: Aspergers' (sp?), shy people, ecstatic Dec 2012 #53
The mental health canard is used to derail any real discussion of gun owenership/control/regulation. geckosfeet Dec 2012 #56
Thanks for a gutsy and challenging OP. JohnnyLib2 Dec 2012 #57
No, you're not dangerous AnnieBW Dec 2012 #58
Thanks, I know that. Denninmi Dec 2012 #60
Mmmm... clams... AnnieBW Dec 2012 #62
K and R Hatchling Dec 2012 #59
Part of our societal problem is lack of understanding of mental health issues. Coyotl Dec 2012 #63
If only more of us would take better care of what we learn. Festivito Dec 2012 #64
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