General Discussion

laundry_queen

(8,646 posts)

39. It depends

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 06:37 PM

Dec 2012

a lot of what we consider to be 'normal, loving' parenting, isn't, really. For instance, my parents SEEMED loving on the outside, to everyone who knew us. I was dressed well, physically well taken care of and well behaved (and got straight-A's in school) so we seemed like a great family. What people didn't know is the small, crazymaking crap my parents did behind closed doors, every fucking day of my life. Invalidating, gaslighting, minimizing, ridiculing was (is!) part of every conversation. Treating me as part of the furniture was their way of life. I'm certain, if I'd have done something violent instead of doing self-harm and darn near drinking myself to death at age 13, my parents would've been aghast and confused and said things like, "we have a loving home" and "we never could've seen this coming". I was lucky enough, I think, that as a toddler I spent most of my time with an exceptionally patient, kind and loving aunt who probably showed me empathy and enough self-worth to help me through as I got older.

You can't always tell if it was a 'loving home' by what the parents (or neighbors) say.

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Raising Adam Lanza's.. Raising 9-Year-Old a Psychopaths [View all] HipChick Dec 2012 OP

These kids grow up to be CEOs, lobbyists, and U.S. politicians. nt valerief Dec 2012 #1

Exactly. Psychopaths/sociopaths are SUCCESSFUL in life, one way or another -- downandoutnow Dec 2012 #3

So if Adam Lanza Turbineguy Dec 2012 #28

From the article csziggy Dec 2012 #59

You didn't get just the tiniest 'Anti-Social Personality Disorder-Sociopathic Type' vibe off coalition_unwilling Dec 2012 #63

I agreed with that. . . Springslips Dec 2012 #107

Just the smart ones eridani Dec 2012 #98

Some of our most highly valued and rewarded behaviors. n/t Egalitarian Thug Dec 2012 #2

Even these guys are still missing the point. They're getting warmer though. It's the parents. Gregorian Dec 2012 #4

Most likely the parents play a minor role FarCenter Dec 2012 #5

well said Blue_Roses Dec 2012 #46

Why in the world would she keep guns in the house? vlyons Dec 2012 #50

+1 gazillion valerief Dec 2012 #99

Did you actually read the article? Live and Learn Dec 2012 #7

This is why Alice Miller had such a difficult time getting her work to be accepted. Gregorian Dec 2012 #17

So you completely disregard the physiological differences? nt Live and Learn Dec 2012 #18

They are so many magnitudes apart, in numbers, that one is all we need to look at. Gregorian Dec 2012 #20

Gregorian, I agree with you and I have read Alice Miller and Gabor Mate. vanlassie Dec 2012 #58

You know that statement, "We are not born with it (empathy)" flies in the face of everything I've 1monster Dec 2012 #71

If you read to the place where it says "How is empathy generated?" vanlassie Dec 2012 #94

Alice Miller was wrong. Odin2005 Dec 2012 #102

Both you and Alice Miller are right. Let's not kill this conversation. Gregorian Dec 2012 #115

"so-called research" Odin2005 Dec 2012 #119

I believe, like autism laundry_queen Dec 2012 #38

I think this is all such important for the conversation we're having. Thank you for even joining in. Gregorian Dec 2012 #116

autism use to be thought of as a parenting problem liberal_at_heart Dec 2012 #30

Hell, asthma used to be thought of as a parenting problem. hunter Dec 2012 #37

Yep, called smother mothers. libdem4life Dec 2012 #47

I find this attitude to be highly offensive. KSstellarcat Dec 2012 #32

I cannot suggest strongly enough that you read Alice Miller's books. Gregorian Dec 2012 #44

So what makes Alice Miller more of an expert than others? 1monster Dec 2012 #72

Her willingness to explore what every other professional won't dare touch. Gregorian Dec 2012 #81

Maybe her abuse predisposes her toward the parent angle adigal Dec 2012 #90

Sorry, assuming all disturbed people had bad parents leads to witch hunts... Odin2005 Dec 2012 #103

That was one of the stupidest books easttexaslefty Dec 2012 #118

Alice M. studied/wrote about environmental influences. However, she did not MichiganVote Dec 2012 #53

The problem is most likely to arise when a person has contributing factors AND is poorly parented. vanlassie Dec 2012 #60

Alice M. studies/wrote about child abuse and mistreatment. MichiganVote Dec 2012 #61

I agree. vanlassie Dec 2012 #93

Disagree with you. The current thinking is that the causes of personality disorders are biological. Michigan Alum Dec 2012 #97

"Drama of the Gifted Child", "For Your Own Good". She was a genius. Cetacea Dec 2012 #109

As you can see, it's hard even among the smart liberals here to get the message across. Gregorian Dec 2012 #114

Thank you. She had that effect on me as well And others I have known. Cetacea Dec 2012 #120

Bullshit. Sociopaths have actual problems in their brains. white_wolf Dec 2012 #8

Nonsense.. sendero Dec 2012 #10

MOST of the time it, parents aren't adapting appropriately. In a small fraction of instances, they patrice Dec 2012 #12

That's pretty much my point too. Gregorian Dec 2012 #19

Thank you for the reading suggestions. I am thinking about why the difference between the 2 sets of patrice Dec 2012 #29

I have a three year old preschooler ... (i'm the teacher) bluemarkers Dec 2012 #42

In the 1950's mothers were told Shiraz Dec 2012 #41

exactly liberal_at_heart Dec 2012 #73

Actually, nurture-is-everything "Blank-Slate-ism" tends to be a left-wing thing. Odin2005 Dec 2012 #104

Yes, my severe asthma is caused by my "smother mother". Its all psychological doncha know! riderinthestorm Dec 2012 #86

Why is everyone so willing to ignore the role of the parents. AlbertCat Dec 2012 #48

bingo liberal_at_heart Dec 2012 #74

I'm sorry, but infants rely on parents for their very survival. Gregorian Dec 2012 #83

These studies you're mentioning, are well after the period of time in which I'm talking about. AlbertCat Dec 2012 #91

Study finds psychopaths have distinct brain structure PADemD Dec 2012 #52

Studies have also shown that early abuse leads to physical changes in the brains structure. Gregorian Dec 2012 #78

The parents aren't responsible for measurable differences in the brain. pnwmom Dec 2012 #66

Abuse in very young children causes physiological changes in the brain. It's a fact. Gregorian Dec 2012 #89

I've read Alice Miller's The Drama of the Gifted Child and I agree she has important things to say. pnwmom Dec 2012 #95

I must strongly disagree. I think "It's the genetics" is more accurate and may help coalition_unwilling Dec 2012 #67

This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Dec 2012 #75

No, its also the guns. The guns that allow one nut to kill 28 people quickly. Warren DeMontague Dec 2012 #76

You probably think autism is caused by "frigid mothers", too. Odin2005 Dec 2012 #101

It is pretty much decided Springslips Dec 2012 #108

sometimes parents are to blame, and sometimes they aren't KSstellarcat Dec 2012 #6

It's hard to imagine how parents could possibly be to blame Major Nikon Dec 2012 #21

Dubya blew up frogs when he was a kid proud2BlibKansan Dec 2012 #9

Yes, and W's mother was lacking in the trait of empathy as well. I DO believe there can be a vanlassie Dec 2012 #22

How many children have helicopter parents XemaSab Dec 2012 #33

It depends laundry_queen Dec 2012 #39

Your thinking leads to the kind of witch hunts against parents... Odin2005 Dec 2012 #105

Quite a stretch... vanlassie Dec 2012 #110

WTF are you talking about? laundry_queen Dec 2012 #117

Responsive care meets a child's individual developmental needs. It has nothing to do with vanlassie Dec 2012 #54

I DO believe there can be a genetic component AlbertCat Dec 2012 #49

Exactly. The parents control the environment, to a great degree. It's their responsibility. vanlassie Dec 2012 #55

The parents control the environment AlbertCat Dec 2012 #62

I agree 100%. You can lock up all the knives (read "firearms"). But then the child may simply coalition_unwilling Dec 2012 #68

Parents control the baby's environment. The first three years vanlassie Dec 2012 #92

KICK: A very worthy read! Thanks for posting! nt patrice Dec 2012 #11

Thanks, this is a valuable addition to the conversation. KittyWampus Dec 2012 #13

What level of empathy is considered normal and appropriate? undeterred Dec 2012 #14

+1. when you think about it, any society which condemns a large proportion of its citizens to HiPointDem Dec 2012 #26

agreed. nt laundry_queen Dec 2012 #40

I'd say it stops well short of torturing animals, or drowning people out of "scientific" curiosity. whathehell Dec 2012 #56

K&R Solly Mack Dec 2012 #15

Clockwerk Orange? progressoid Dec 2012 #16

I'm worried the worst is yet to come... ileus Dec 2012 #23

Is there a correlation between difficult times in a society, say like GreenPartyVoter Dec 2012 #80

i have a big problem with this kind of thing. i think the evidence is weak and cherry-picked and HiPointDem Dec 2012 #24

Excellent and thought provoking article. s-cubed Dec 2012 #25

as a mother of a bi polar son , this article is so important proud patriot Dec 2012 #27

There is NO MONEY for mental health.. no money for any bed in any hospital... lib2DaBone Dec 2012 #34

I am so sorry you're child has bi polar disorder liberal_at_heart Dec 2012 #35

You have my complete sympathies (step-parent of bi-polar daughter). People coalition_unwilling Dec 2012 #70

Fascinating, but scarey article. HooptieWagon Dec 2012 #31

Reminds me of the plot of "The Bad Seed". no_hypocrisy Dec 2012 #36

Or "The Good Son" Fantastic Anarchist Dec 2012 #69

East of Eden. Cathy mainstreetonce Dec 2012 #43

This is a scary story. bluestate10 Dec 2012 #45

We are reaping what we have sown by doping up 5 year old's with Ritalin, Adderal etc etc ... Myrina Dec 2012 #51

You make it sound like we are dumping meds into kids for no reason and GreenPartyVoter Dec 2012 #79

I understand that but Myrina Dec 2012 #84

Our situation isn't about taking the edge off, it's about realigning GreenPartyVoter Dec 2012 #88

Supposedly there's a genetic component, too Nevernose Dec 2012 #57

This message was self-deleted by its author 1monster Dec 2012 #64

Fascinating reading. We know so damned little about the psychological processes of children. 1monster Dec 2012 #65

I found out recently that a young cousin of mine who I last saw when he was 18 is apparently kestrel91316 Dec 2012 #77

Thanks for the OP and other reading suggestions in the thread. JohnnyLib2 Dec 2012 #82

Post removed Post removed Dec 2012 #85

Jesus. That is a scary read. renie408 Dec 2012 #87

Really interesting article. I have run across people all my life TwilightGardener Dec 2012 #96

Reminds me of a short story I read in school many years ago Shrek Dec 2012 #100

A story from a ritzy private school in DC... Sparkly Dec 2012 #106

I think a bit too self-serving... frostfern Dec 2012 #111

Autism and Asperger's disorder are diagnoses "slapped on" to kids who are withdrawn or who have Michigan Alum Dec 2012 #113

The proper term for this disorder is Antisocial Personality Disorder (ASPD) (per the DSM-IV TR) Michigan Alum Dec 2012 #112