General Discussion

joshcryer

(62,536 posts)

98. No, I doubt he knew he was going to do it.

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 09:31 AM

Jan 2012

I think it was far too naive to understand that 1) the House Democrats would make sure it was in their form of the legislation and 2) that the Republicans wouldn't vote for it without scrapping the public option. He was a naive junior senator from Illinois. And he said during his campaign that he'd be open to mandates some time down the line.

He just campaigned against it because frankly he had to distinguish himself from Hillary somehow, since their agendas were practically the same. And DU, for the first time ever, threw Krugman under the bus because he supported the mandate. Liberals should be happy for the mandate, since it brings us one step closer to single payer.

They shouldn't 1) buy the dishonest meme that Republicans like mandates (they voted overwhelmingly against HCR), and 2) that mandates are not progressive.

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In Case You Missed This... Confirmation On What Many Of Us Believed Re: The Publc Option Fight [View all] WillyT Jan 2012 OP

And THIS guy's whiny temper tantrum is more valid than the last thousand? TheWraith Jan 2012 #1

Maybe You Missed This Part ??? WillyT Jan 2012 #8

He's an admitted Liberal, and thus a liar MannyGoldstein Jan 2012 #11

LOL !!! WillyT Jan 2012 #12

maybe you missed this.... spanone Jan 2012 #28

And Both Things Can Be True... WillyT Jan 2012 #30

yes it is from this year. great praise of mr Obama and the healthcare reform. spanone Jan 2012 #32

Many Eyes Have Opened, Many Hearts Have Changed, Since March Of This Year... WillyT Jan 2012 #34

you give mr kirsch the benefit of the doubt...i give it to the President. spanone Jan 2012 #36

As Is Your Right WillyT Jan 2012 #37

and yours... spanone Jan 2012 #38

I'm reading the same thing in Ron Suskind's "Confidence Men". Fuddnik Jan 2012 #68

Not unlike Gore promoting NAFTA progressoid Jan 2012 #76

Thus institutionalizing mass murderers as intermediaries between us and out providers eridani Jan 2012 #80

What a pile of horse manure. Leopolds Ghost Jan 2012 #100

Yep. Insurance is NOT healthcare elehhhhna Jan 2012 #156

he refuses to act pragmaticly SwampG8r Jan 2012 #75

Man, ever heard of tiny URL? DiverDave Jan 2012 #53

Throw him under the bus to join the other progressives who don't stick to the party line. Better Believe It Jan 2012 #43

So you are upto divisinve rhetoric several times a day now? Sheepshank Jan 2012 #155

Looks like you dropped a turd and ran. Why dont you stay and discuss? nm rhett o rick Jan 2012 #72

Why waste time discussing when one's goal is to divide? ClassWarrior Jan 2012 #110

Maybe trying to bait progressives into getting TS'd. Purely speculation. rhett o rick Jan 2012 #135

I would like to see that hootinholler Jan 2012 #158

now they will have to have SwampG8r Jan 2012 #2

Confirms this for those of us who thought it was true at the time theaocp Jan 2012 #3

Well, the President was getting "well-intentioned" and "well-informed" advice from Rahm no_hypocrisy Jan 2012 #4

Didn't someone else come out with a book or Autumn Jan 2012 #5

Yes BlueCheese Jan 2012 #46

I would like to read that book. Tom Rinaldo Jan 2012 #6

Fuck Ron Paul TransitJohn Jan 2012 #7

I believe the NY Times reported that Obama began by MannyGoldstein Jan 2012 #9

True... But That Report Was Dismissed Out Of Hand By Many Of Our Friends... WillyT Jan 2012 #10

But other than multiple independent corroborating sources MannyGoldstein Jan 2012 #15

:) nashville_brook Jan 2012 #27

Yes, because it wasn't reported on in-depth.. girl gone mad Jan 2012 #67

Su-prise, su-prise, su-prise. Occulus Jan 2012 #13

It REALLY disturbs me that the WH tries to remove people like Kirsch -- gateley Jan 2012 #14

It really doesn't matter if the votes weren't there. gulliver Jan 2012 #16

What exactly did "WE" get? 2banon Jan 2012 #22

Same here, AND... derby378 Jan 2012 #55

Ditto on all counts. Fearless Jan 2012 #73

Votes don't exist in a vacuum Hawkowl Jan 2012 #58

Is that how it worked when you were in congress? loyalsister Jan 2012 #59

I've been a staffer Hawkowl Jan 2012 #65

Exactly, Hawkowl Carolina Jan 2012 #94

Yes, it does matter that the government engages in thuggery, whether it be in this case EFerrari Jan 2012 #74

Du rec. Nt xchrom Jan 2012 #17

Wow, Obama really IS just like FDR. Especially on HC reform. Yet, Obama passed reform FarLeftFist Jan 2012 #18

All FDR got was Social Security, which Obama tried to cut, and MannyGoldstein Jan 2012 #20

You don't see the parallels? FDR backed down from health care reform because... FarLeftFist Jan 2012 #21

FDR picked his battles. But he unequivocally won some big battles. MannyGoldstein Jan 2012 #44

Of course FDR had 377 House seats and 73 Senate seats. Obama goes for wins he knows FarLeftFist Jan 2012 #45

You're absolutely correct loyalsister Jan 2012 #60

Exactly my point. Just laying the groundwork itself is a MAJOR accomplishment. FarLeftFist Jan 2012 #63

Laying the groundwork for what? Leopolds Ghost Jan 2012 #108

I guess all of us just don't realize how Social Security got started eridani Jan 2012 #81

Those pesky details loyalsister Jan 2012 #86

It didn't start out as a perfect program, but it did start out as a GOVERNMENT progam eridani Jan 2012 #89

We all know that difference loyalsister Jan 2012 #146

So doctors getting arrested in the Senate = "not invested enough"? eridani Jan 2012 #147

Since you have all the answers loyalsister Jan 2012 #148

Single payer has been passed in CA 2 1/2 times, going on a third eridani Jan 2012 #149

"Public support" in CA does not translate into public support nationwide. loyalsister Jan 2012 #154

Because single payer advocates weren't interested in promoting public health care eridani Jan 2012 #157

No loyalsister Jan 2012 #159

FDR did NOT get SS in it's current form. CakeGrrl Jan 2012 #82

He got it established as a GOVERNMENT program eridani Jan 2012 #90

It was substantially in its current form MannyGoldstein Jan 2012 #91

I didn't miss it DeathToTheOil Jan 2012 #19

This message was self-deleted by its author spanone Jan 2012 #23

We knew this all along. Occupy. woo me with science Jan 2012 #24

+1 Get the money out of politics. Zorra Jan 2012 #71

Post removed Post removed Jan 2012 #25

STFU? theaocp Jan 2012 #29

Um... You Forgot The Sarcasm Thingy... WillyT Jan 2012 #31

no i didnt forget sarcasm tibbiit Jan 2012 #42

True, I can't AFFORD to live in a Gingrich or Romney led country. FarLeftFist Jan 2012 #39

We already live in a Gingrich and Romney run country Carolina Jan 2012 #95

This is parody, right? woo me with science Jan 2012 #41

So I kind of get the impression you don't want to Autumn Jan 2012 #50

LOL !!! WillyT Jan 2012 #51

What can I say? I'm fucking psychic Autumn Jan 2012 #54

Don't worry he'll veto any health reform bill that doesn't contain the Public Option...oh, wait. Tierra_y_Libertad Jan 2012 #26

Do you think he would veto one that does? loyalsister Jan 2012 #61

knr frylock Jan 2012 #33

K&R (nt) T S Justly Jan 2012 #35

I saw him on The Young Turks a few days ago. It confirms what I already knew. Edweird Jan 2012 #40

Richard Kirsch ProSense Jan 2012 #47

I JUST ordered this! Cherchez la Femme Jan 2012 #48

...but he sings Al Green, bvar22 Jan 2012 #49

Well the needs of the one Autumn Jan 2012 #56

Well, that's true. girl gone mad Jan 2012 #77

He IS dreamy, isn't he? CakeGrrl Jan 2012 #83

K&R raouldukelives Jan 2012 #52

Surprising? K&R JackRiddler Jan 2012 #57

Gees, I wish my memory were better - Dem. bill failed... fadedrose Jan 2012 #62

You're going to alert because Moosepoop Jan 2012 #64

You are correct.. fadedrose Jan 2012 #66

Obama should have never allowed the public option to be Ron Green Jan 2012 #69

OBAMA BAAAAAADDDDDDDDD!!!!!! Liberal_Stalwart71 Jan 2012 #70

Obama perfect. girl gone mad Jan 2012 #78

Go find some proof. CakeGrrl Jan 2012 #79

Yep! GOBAMA 2012!!!!!!! Liberal_Stalwart71 Jan 2012 #142

Obama's health care stance was always weak. joshcryer Jan 2012 #84

Mandates were designed to kill single payer, according to Washington Monthly when they interviewed Leopolds Ghost Jan 2012 #88

No, they were designed as an alternative. joshcryer Jan 2012 #92

The mandates go against the principles on which the country was founded, oppos. to Mercantilism. Leopolds Ghost Jan 2012 #97

Single payer is a mandate, so I am just going to take what you're saying here... joshcryer Jan 2012 #99

Single payer is a mandate to purchase private health insurance with private income? Do tell. Leopolds Ghost Jan 2012 #101

No, single payer is a mandate that all pay into a group pool of individuals for health care. joshcryer Jan 2012 #102

Or, you know, we will continue to boycott any insurance provider that attempts to market a private Leopolds Ghost Jan 2012 #105

I'm not insured. joshcryer Jan 2012 #109

Look, I think we've done this issue to death... Leopolds Ghost Jan 2012 #134

I remember those debates well. joshcryer Jan 2012 #136

A federal public option would be paid for by fines on the uninsured. That was the whole IDEA. Leopolds Ghost Jan 2012 #106

This message was self-deleted by its author joshcryer Jan 2012 #112

K&R! jannyk Jan 2012 #85

The Public Option was a show pony from day one. Leopolds Ghost Jan 2012 #87

He campaigned against mandates because it was the moderate thing to do. joshcryer Jan 2012 #93

Which means he lied and knew he was lying in advance. JoeyT Jan 2012 #96

No, I doubt he knew he was going to do it. joshcryer Jan 2012 #98

Buck Krugman. He supported the mandate. We're supposed to side with him on every issue why? Leopolds Ghost Jan 2012 #103

The Public Option was to have been paid for by fines on the uninsured. Nuff said. Leopolds Ghost Jan 2012 #104

Where is this coming from? Mandates are to stop freeloaders from rising costs... joshcryer Jan 2012 #107

Again you use Hillary Clinton's 53%er rhetoric "freeloaders" to refer to the uninsured. Leopolds Ghost Jan 2012 #111

Edwards and Hillary both funded those people. They didn't *fine* them. joshcryer Jan 2012 #115

I.e. the working poor. Leopolds Ghost Jan 2012 #116

So single payer wouldn't make "the working poor" as you call them, pay into it? joshcryer Jan 2012 #118

I'm a civil libertarian, yes. Private insurance cos. != society. != common payer. Leopolds Ghost Jan 2012 #123

I'm talking about putting people into one large group pool... joshcryer Jan 2012 #131

38% of Americans uninsured make more than $50k a year. joshcryer Jan 2012 #122

Also, the concept that freeloaders are responsible for rising costs is a Republicrat meme Leopolds Ghost Jan 2012 #113

The same people paying into a mandated program would have to pay into single payer. joshcryer Jan 2012 #117

So the low fines "are working" by forcing people who couldn't afford ins. to buy ins? Leopolds Ghost Jan 2012 #125

You don't ... get fined if you make no money. joshcryer Jan 2012 #127

No, only if you're employed. The minute I get a job, I have to explain to them Leopolds Ghost Jan 2012 #129

Obama's original no-mandate proposal included fines! joshcryer Jan 2012 #132

How can it be no-mandate if you fine people for not having insurance? Leopolds Ghost Jan 2012 #133

The fines were for parents with children. joshcryer Jan 2012 #137

I really don't see a distinction. You're "paying the man" either way. joshcryer Jan 2012 #138

So he did it because it was the weakest Democratic position to take? ClassWarrior Jan 2012 #114

. ClassWarrior Jan 2012 #139

. ClassWarrior Jan 2012 #140

. ClassWarrior Jan 2012 #141

As Obama said, mandates are bad idea for the same reason that mandated private housing is a bad idea Leopolds Ghost Jan 2012 #119

LOL, I am amazed to see Obama's moderate policies being trumpeted here. joshcryer Jan 2012 #120

You mean Obama's weakest Democratic policies. ClassWarrior Jan 2012 #121

Moderate policies are not the same as weak actions. joshcryer Jan 2012 #124

No, moderate policies are the same as weak policies. ClassWarrior Jan 2012 #126

Leopolds Ghost at least appears to back Obama's moderate policy. joshcryer Jan 2012 #128

So? That doesn't shove "moderate" any closer to the strong Democratic end of the values spectrum. ClassWarrior Jan 2012 #130

Well, Obama DID say during the campaign that he didn't believe S/payer could get passed. Schema Thing Jan 2012 #143

Obama hates us. JoePhilly Jan 2012 #144

hates us he does... he wants to steal the precioussssss... dionysus Jan 2012 #151

Shoulda gone after the Banksters and Wall Street Thugs in his first year, deal with HC "Reform" 2banon Jan 2012 #145

keep trying. dionysus Jan 2012 #150

Try Reading... WillyT Jan 2012 #153

... Cleita Jan 2012 #152