General Discussion

Leopolds Ghost

(12,875 posts)

129. No, only if you're employed. The minute I get a job, I have to explain to them

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 10:31 AM

Jan 2012

Why I refuse to pay said fine.

For one thing, this new law prevents me from obtaining the affordable health care (that actually pays out) for self-employed and low-wage workers that I have been trying to find. It does so by twisting the market in favor of insurance cos. I have actually gotten calls from insurance companies telling them to take their deal now, before I am required to purchase from them, or someone like them (whereupon their prices will go up).

If anything, there should be a tax revolt against said fine since it is a Stamp Tax to benefit the corporate Insurance industry.

It's not the same as a universal common carrier with a fixed means-tested price.

Hell, as I said long ago, I'd be willing to see a "Federal Reserve / Mortgage Reinsurance system" for Health Care in which there is a universal purchasing pool and you get to choose your provider.

That, of course, would be the opposite of what we have now.

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In Case You Missed This... Confirmation On What Many Of Us Believed Re: The Publc Option Fight [View all] WillyT Jan 2012 OP

And THIS guy's whiny temper tantrum is more valid than the last thousand? TheWraith Jan 2012 #1

Maybe You Missed This Part ??? WillyT Jan 2012 #8

He's an admitted Liberal, and thus a liar MannyGoldstein Jan 2012 #11

LOL !!! WillyT Jan 2012 #12

maybe you missed this.... spanone Jan 2012 #28

And Both Things Can Be True... WillyT Jan 2012 #30

yes it is from this year. great praise of mr Obama and the healthcare reform. spanone Jan 2012 #32

Many Eyes Have Opened, Many Hearts Have Changed, Since March Of This Year... WillyT Jan 2012 #34

you give mr kirsch the benefit of the doubt...i give it to the President. spanone Jan 2012 #36

As Is Your Right WillyT Jan 2012 #37

and yours... spanone Jan 2012 #38

I'm reading the same thing in Ron Suskind's "Confidence Men". Fuddnik Jan 2012 #68

Not unlike Gore promoting NAFTA progressoid Jan 2012 #76

Thus institutionalizing mass murderers as intermediaries between us and out providers eridani Jan 2012 #80

What a pile of horse manure. Leopolds Ghost Jan 2012 #100

Yep. Insurance is NOT healthcare elehhhhna Jan 2012 #156

he refuses to act pragmaticly SwampG8r Jan 2012 #75

Man, ever heard of tiny URL? DiverDave Jan 2012 #53

Throw him under the bus to join the other progressives who don't stick to the party line. Better Believe It Jan 2012 #43

So you are upto divisinve rhetoric several times a day now? Sheepshank Jan 2012 #155

Looks like you dropped a turd and ran. Why dont you stay and discuss? nm rhett o rick Jan 2012 #72

Why waste time discussing when one's goal is to divide? ClassWarrior Jan 2012 #110

Maybe trying to bait progressives into getting TS'd. Purely speculation. rhett o rick Jan 2012 #135

I would like to see that hootinholler Jan 2012 #158

now they will have to have SwampG8r Jan 2012 #2

Confirms this for those of us who thought it was true at the time theaocp Jan 2012 #3

Well, the President was getting "well-intentioned" and "well-informed" advice from Rahm no_hypocrisy Jan 2012 #4

Didn't someone else come out with a book or Autumn Jan 2012 #5

Yes BlueCheese Jan 2012 #46

I would like to read that book. Tom Rinaldo Jan 2012 #6

Fuck Ron Paul TransitJohn Jan 2012 #7

I believe the NY Times reported that Obama began by MannyGoldstein Jan 2012 #9

True... But That Report Was Dismissed Out Of Hand By Many Of Our Friends... WillyT Jan 2012 #10

But other than multiple independent corroborating sources MannyGoldstein Jan 2012 #15

:) nashville_brook Jan 2012 #27

Yes, because it wasn't reported on in-depth.. girl gone mad Jan 2012 #67

Su-prise, su-prise, su-prise. Occulus Jan 2012 #13

It REALLY disturbs me that the WH tries to remove people like Kirsch -- gateley Jan 2012 #14

It really doesn't matter if the votes weren't there. gulliver Jan 2012 #16

What exactly did "WE" get? 2banon Jan 2012 #22

Same here, AND... derby378 Jan 2012 #55

Ditto on all counts. Fearless Jan 2012 #73

Votes don't exist in a vacuum Hawkowl Jan 2012 #58

Is that how it worked when you were in congress? loyalsister Jan 2012 #59

I've been a staffer Hawkowl Jan 2012 #65

Exactly, Hawkowl Carolina Jan 2012 #94

Yes, it does matter that the government engages in thuggery, whether it be in this case EFerrari Jan 2012 #74

Du rec. Nt xchrom Jan 2012 #17

Wow, Obama really IS just like FDR. Especially on HC reform. Yet, Obama passed reform FarLeftFist Jan 2012 #18

All FDR got was Social Security, which Obama tried to cut, and MannyGoldstein Jan 2012 #20

You don't see the parallels? FDR backed down from health care reform because... FarLeftFist Jan 2012 #21

FDR picked his battles. But he unequivocally won some big battles. MannyGoldstein Jan 2012 #44

Of course FDR had 377 House seats and 73 Senate seats. Obama goes for wins he knows FarLeftFist Jan 2012 #45

You're absolutely correct loyalsister Jan 2012 #60

Exactly my point. Just laying the groundwork itself is a MAJOR accomplishment. FarLeftFist Jan 2012 #63

Laying the groundwork for what? Leopolds Ghost Jan 2012 #108

I guess all of us just don't realize how Social Security got started eridani Jan 2012 #81

Those pesky details loyalsister Jan 2012 #86

It didn't start out as a perfect program, but it did start out as a GOVERNMENT progam eridani Jan 2012 #89

We all know that difference loyalsister Jan 2012 #146

So doctors getting arrested in the Senate = "not invested enough"? eridani Jan 2012 #147

Since you have all the answers loyalsister Jan 2012 #148

Single payer has been passed in CA 2 1/2 times, going on a third eridani Jan 2012 #149

"Public support" in CA does not translate into public support nationwide. loyalsister Jan 2012 #154

Because single payer advocates weren't interested in promoting public health care eridani Jan 2012 #157

No loyalsister Jan 2012 #159

FDR did NOT get SS in it's current form. CakeGrrl Jan 2012 #82

He got it established as a GOVERNMENT program eridani Jan 2012 #90

It was substantially in its current form MannyGoldstein Jan 2012 #91

I didn't miss it DeathToTheOil Jan 2012 #19

This message was self-deleted by its author spanone Jan 2012 #23

We knew this all along. Occupy. woo me with science Jan 2012 #24

+1 Get the money out of politics. Zorra Jan 2012 #71

Post removed Post removed Jan 2012 #25

STFU? theaocp Jan 2012 #29

Um... You Forgot The Sarcasm Thingy... WillyT Jan 2012 #31

no i didnt forget sarcasm tibbiit Jan 2012 #42

True, I can't AFFORD to live in a Gingrich or Romney led country. FarLeftFist Jan 2012 #39

We already live in a Gingrich and Romney run country Carolina Jan 2012 #95

This is parody, right? woo me with science Jan 2012 #41

So I kind of get the impression you don't want to Autumn Jan 2012 #50

LOL !!! WillyT Jan 2012 #51

What can I say? I'm fucking psychic Autumn Jan 2012 #54

Don't worry he'll veto any health reform bill that doesn't contain the Public Option...oh, wait. Tierra_y_Libertad Jan 2012 #26

Do you think he would veto one that does? loyalsister Jan 2012 #61

knr frylock Jan 2012 #33

K&R (nt) T S Justly Jan 2012 #35

I saw him on The Young Turks a few days ago. It confirms what I already knew. Edweird Jan 2012 #40

Richard Kirsch ProSense Jan 2012 #47

I JUST ordered this! Cherchez la Femme Jan 2012 #48

...but he sings Al Green, bvar22 Jan 2012 #49

Well the needs of the one Autumn Jan 2012 #56

Well, that's true. girl gone mad Jan 2012 #77

He IS dreamy, isn't he? CakeGrrl Jan 2012 #83

K&R raouldukelives Jan 2012 #52

Surprising? K&R JackRiddler Jan 2012 #57

Gees, I wish my memory were better - Dem. bill failed... fadedrose Jan 2012 #62

You're going to alert because Moosepoop Jan 2012 #64

You are correct.. fadedrose Jan 2012 #66

Obama should have never allowed the public option to be Ron Green Jan 2012 #69

OBAMA BAAAAAADDDDDDDDD!!!!!! Liberal_Stalwart71 Jan 2012 #70

Obama perfect. girl gone mad Jan 2012 #78

Go find some proof. CakeGrrl Jan 2012 #79

Yep! GOBAMA 2012!!!!!!! Liberal_Stalwart71 Jan 2012 #142

Obama's health care stance was always weak. joshcryer Jan 2012 #84

Mandates were designed to kill single payer, according to Washington Monthly when they interviewed Leopolds Ghost Jan 2012 #88

No, they were designed as an alternative. joshcryer Jan 2012 #92

The mandates go against the principles on which the country was founded, oppos. to Mercantilism. Leopolds Ghost Jan 2012 #97

Single payer is a mandate, so I am just going to take what you're saying here... joshcryer Jan 2012 #99

Single payer is a mandate to purchase private health insurance with private income? Do tell. Leopolds Ghost Jan 2012 #101

No, single payer is a mandate that all pay into a group pool of individuals for health care. joshcryer Jan 2012 #102

Or, you know, we will continue to boycott any insurance provider that attempts to market a private Leopolds Ghost Jan 2012 #105

I'm not insured. joshcryer Jan 2012 #109

Look, I think we've done this issue to death... Leopolds Ghost Jan 2012 #134

I remember those debates well. joshcryer Jan 2012 #136

A federal public option would be paid for by fines on the uninsured. That was the whole IDEA. Leopolds Ghost Jan 2012 #106

This message was self-deleted by its author joshcryer Jan 2012 #112

K&R! jannyk Jan 2012 #85

The Public Option was a show pony from day one. Leopolds Ghost Jan 2012 #87

He campaigned against mandates because it was the moderate thing to do. joshcryer Jan 2012 #93

Which means he lied and knew he was lying in advance. JoeyT Jan 2012 #96

No, I doubt he knew he was going to do it. joshcryer Jan 2012 #98

Buck Krugman. He supported the mandate. We're supposed to side with him on every issue why? Leopolds Ghost Jan 2012 #103

The Public Option was to have been paid for by fines on the uninsured. Nuff said. Leopolds Ghost Jan 2012 #104

Where is this coming from? Mandates are to stop freeloaders from rising costs... joshcryer Jan 2012 #107

Again you use Hillary Clinton's 53%er rhetoric "freeloaders" to refer to the uninsured. Leopolds Ghost Jan 2012 #111

Edwards and Hillary both funded those people. They didn't *fine* them. joshcryer Jan 2012 #115

I.e. the working poor. Leopolds Ghost Jan 2012 #116

So single payer wouldn't make "the working poor" as you call them, pay into it? joshcryer Jan 2012 #118

I'm a civil libertarian, yes. Private insurance cos. != society. != common payer. Leopolds Ghost Jan 2012 #123

I'm talking about putting people into one large group pool... joshcryer Jan 2012 #131

38% of Americans uninsured make more than $50k a year. joshcryer Jan 2012 #122

Also, the concept that freeloaders are responsible for rising costs is a Republicrat meme Leopolds Ghost Jan 2012 #113

The same people paying into a mandated program would have to pay into single payer. joshcryer Jan 2012 #117

So the low fines "are working" by forcing people who couldn't afford ins. to buy ins? Leopolds Ghost Jan 2012 #125

You don't ... get fined if you make no money. joshcryer Jan 2012 #127

No, only if you're employed. The minute I get a job, I have to explain to them Leopolds Ghost Jan 2012 #129

Obama's original no-mandate proposal included fines! joshcryer Jan 2012 #132

How can it be no-mandate if you fine people for not having insurance? Leopolds Ghost Jan 2012 #133

The fines were for parents with children. joshcryer Jan 2012 #137

I really don't see a distinction. You're "paying the man" either way. joshcryer Jan 2012 #138

So he did it because it was the weakest Democratic position to take? ClassWarrior Jan 2012 #114

. ClassWarrior Jan 2012 #139

. ClassWarrior Jan 2012 #140

. ClassWarrior Jan 2012 #141

As Obama said, mandates are bad idea for the same reason that mandated private housing is a bad idea Leopolds Ghost Jan 2012 #119

LOL, I am amazed to see Obama's moderate policies being trumpeted here. joshcryer Jan 2012 #120

You mean Obama's weakest Democratic policies. ClassWarrior Jan 2012 #121

Moderate policies are not the same as weak actions. joshcryer Jan 2012 #124

No, moderate policies are the same as weak policies. ClassWarrior Jan 2012 #126

Leopolds Ghost at least appears to back Obama's moderate policy. joshcryer Jan 2012 #128

So? That doesn't shove "moderate" any closer to the strong Democratic end of the values spectrum. ClassWarrior Jan 2012 #130

Well, Obama DID say during the campaign that he didn't believe S/payer could get passed. Schema Thing Jan 2012 #143

Obama hates us. JoePhilly Jan 2012 #144

hates us he does... he wants to steal the precioussssss... dionysus Jan 2012 #151

Shoulda gone after the Banksters and Wall Street Thugs in his first year, deal with HC "Reform" 2banon Jan 2012 #145

keep trying. dionysus Jan 2012 #150

Try Reading... WillyT Jan 2012 #153

... Cleita Jan 2012 #152