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Tansy_Gold

(18,167 posts)
69. Shutting it down would have had other consequences . . . .
Sat Mar 15, 2025, 09:47 PM
Mar 2025

. . . . that would have made (eventually) turning it back on imperative.

Shutting down the government means shutting down the federal govt, but it does NOT mean shutting down the state governments. Though a federal govt shutdown might have been advantageous for some of 💩's nefarious plans, it would also have forced the states to step in. That's the one thing 💩 doesn't want -- the (more powerful) states becoming even more powerful.

But I say that from a very biased standpoint. More and more and more -- see David Gerrold's post on FB if you haven't already -- people are talking about the very real possibility of civil war. There are (somewhat facetious) memes asking Canada to adopt/annex the US, others showing the US split between Mexico and Canada. Underlying this, of course, is the notion -- the fear, if you will -- that the nation conceived in liberty in 1776 and preserved at great cost in human suffering in 1865 cannot, in fact, endure much longer. That instead of the single legal issue of chattel slavery dividing the country geographically, all the other economic issues that stemmed from that ideological basis divide us now literally within our neighborhoods, within our schools, within our workplaces. Within our online forums.

I think the most telling part of Gerrold's post was this:

There is a story about a scientist who was enlisted to debate a preacher about life on Earth. The scientist said, "If you can present compelling evidence, I am willing to change my views." He then asked the preacher, "If I can present compelling evidence, are you willing to change your views." The preacher said, "No, I am not." The scientist then said, "Then we cannot have a debate, not even a discussion."

And that is the ultimate divide between us
.


MAGAts are the believers who are unwilling -- perhaps unable, but definitely unwilling -- to change their views in the face of any evidence.

What we the people of the US have been stripped of is any and all protection from predation by the powerful forces aligned against us, against our Constitution. The 2017-2021 regime sealed the Supreme Court, and thereby ALL the federal courts against us. Even if by some chance a SCOTUS justice rules against the current regime, there is no mechanism to prevent 💩 and/or 🍉 replacing that justice or simply not obeying the ruling, because there is no body to enforce it. We listen to the encouraging voices of the liberal YouTubers, but we have no institutions we can reliably turn to in the event of mass arrests of dissidents, of people of color, of intellectuals, of LGBTQIA+.

And yet we continue to protect and defend those institutions even when they have proven they will not -- and perhaps cannot -- protect and defend us.

The sanctity of The Union -- like the sanctity of a marriage -- is only as valid as the willingness of the constituents to maintain it. it's been said before, and by better economists, historians, political scientists than I, that maybe it's time for a national divorce. Whether it will be amicable or acrimonious remains to be seen. I live in a somewhat purple state, but in a very very red area of it, so I'm not speaking from a position of comfort with this idea of separation. But frankly, I don't see that either option presented to the Democratic senators was fully viable unless they were willing to consider changing their views on the continued viability of The Union at this point.

The sovereignty of the states is already being challenged; the sovereignty of private institutions is under assault. The assets of non-profit organizations are being frozen and one should not assume the courts will unfreeze those assets nor that those assets cannot be simply appropriated by a government agency.

We need, I think, to lose our unshakeable trust in the institutions. We need to turn off the magical thinking that this is all somehow going to go away with the 2026 midterms. Maybe, just maybe, we need to stop fighting over whether those 10 senators were right or wrong, and start considering that maybe the whole system is wrong and has been for a very long time. Maybe, just maybe, we need to think about why we see Bernie Sanders and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez as our champions and potential leaders.

I caught hell here back in 2008 when I voiced my displeasure over Obama's financial transition team. I believed then, and I have never changed my belief, that he was preserving a very dangerous status quo. I railed against the Democrats' seeming inability, even when they had a super-majority in the Senate, to take advantage of that opportunity. The institutions, the protocols, the norms had to be preserved at all costs . . . and it now seems that protecting the institutions has cost us the institutions and the country.

What if anything, or who if anyone, will save us? Nothing and no one if we aren't willing to do it ourselves.

Recommendations

5 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

No, they were extremely wrong. Think. Again. Mar 2025 #1
Sorry that's a little ambiguous angrychair Mar 2025 #3
Sorry, it was a reply to the question asked in the title. Think. Again. Mar 2025 #11
Could the 10 be considered the "conservative wing" of the Democratic Party? LiberalArkie Mar 2025 #36
No Wiz Imp Mar 2025 #37
Thank you. I do not have the patience to look through their voting records. LiberalArkie Mar 2025 #74
Just for the record, King is not a Democrat Bluetus Mar 2025 #45
Sound like a wing we don't need... Think. Again. Mar 2025 #49
While mr715 Mar 2025 #60
We really don't have the time for that... Think. Again. Mar 2025 #66
Yes, I agree PatSeg Mar 2025 #98
I vote for Chris Murphy. CrispyQ Mar 2025 #103
Yes, Chris Murphy would be an excellent choice PatSeg Mar 2025 #105
They could be the 10 who speed up the end of democracy RiverStone Mar 2025 #97
Baffles me too claudette Mar 2025 #2
Good question! This was s horrible precedent. Whyisthisstillclose Mar 2025 #4
What's yourpoint? Right or wrong about what? brush Mar 2025 #5
I made it clear angrychair Mar 2025 #9
"...about just forcing a shutdown..." is what wasn't clear in your OP. brush Mar 2025 #13
Did Schumer orchestrate the ten KT2000 Mar 2025 #6
That is a good question Bluetus Mar 2025 #52
Durbin is in an EXTREMELY Safe seat. SuzannaD Mar 2025 #101
Good For You ProfessorGAC Mar 2025 #106
Absolutely. But it is absolutely insulting for this safe seat guy Bluetus Mar 2025 #107
That was my thought... pattyloutwo Mar 2025 #102
Trump and little Mikey Johnson thinks so. Trump Emile Mar 2025 #7
Trump hasn't stopped boasting about the mandate since November Wiz Imp Mar 2025 #38
Yeah it's obnoxious ibegurpard Mar 2025 #8
You & me both brother. William769 Mar 2025 #10
We don't know, and won't probably ever know, who was right or wrong. Srkdqltr Mar 2025 #12
A crap choice either way... druidity33 Mar 2025 #14
You're ignoring the major done to the Democratic Party... Think. Again. Mar 2025 #51
And bringing bills to the floor that dems had no hand in writing. CrispyQ Mar 2025 #104
Shutting it down would have had other consequences . . . . Tansy_Gold Mar 2025 #69
"Shutting it down would have had other consequences . . . . . that would have made (eventually) turning it back on Amaryllis Mar 2025 #86
Well, for one thing Tansy_Gold Mar 2025 #96
That was what sealed it for me too - where is the off-ramp? ANd who turns it back on? and do they have any incentive to Amaryllis Mar 2025 #84
Sorry, no, that's my point angrychair Mar 2025 #15
Very flawed logic. The overwhelming majority is not always right. Wiz Imp Mar 2025 #31
I gotta tell you DENVERPOPS Mar 2025 #46
Um, they did challenge the 2000 election and the Supreme Court ruled against them Wiz Imp Mar 2025 #59
Um - and the 2024 election. n/t yellow dahlia Mar 2025 #67
That is a logical fallacy angrychair Mar 2025 #48
It just means every rule has its outliers. Wiz Imp Mar 2025 #58
How is it not democracy ? MichMan Mar 2025 #79
Agreeing with totalitarian dic-fucking-tators is the WRONG FUCKING CHOICE Alpeduez21 Mar 2025 #39
If they shut it down, they don't have to start it up again!!! Than we will be in deeper shit than now. Srkdqltr Mar 2025 #43
You really think even their own magats would let them keep it shut down? Think. Again. Mar 2025 #53
Did you think their own would let them do what they are doing now? Of course they would cheer it. Srkdqltr Mar 2025 #57
I think it might actually have been the turning point we need... Think. Again. Mar 2025 #64
Nah. Think again. nt. druidity33 Mar 2025 #72
Well, sooner or later the magats will start feeling the effects of trump.... Think. Again. Mar 2025 #73
There is no negotiating with Trump and the Republican party. None. hadEnuf Mar 2025 #108
Don't forget Bernie shanti Mar 2025 #16
True angrychair Mar 2025 #17
Yes. Apparently we are bad Democrats if we agree with the hundreds of Democrats Scrivener7 Mar 2025 #18
What's going on now and what will go on in the next six months Tribetime Mar 2025 #19
Uh oh... GiqueCee Mar 2025 #23
Yep. Insurers, like bookies, set the odds and take their vigorish. Marcuse Mar 2025 #30
They are 100% correct. Blue Full Moon Mar 2025 #20
Shutting down the government would have hurt Democrats. Emile Mar 2025 #21
I think it's complicated. Joinfortmill Mar 2025 #22
What's complicated? angrychair Mar 2025 #26
Please, I didn't say anyone was wrong. Joinfortmill Mar 2025 #56
I apologize if that came across as rude angrychair Mar 2025 #68
I hear you. Joinfortmill Mar 2025 #77
Perplexing orangecrush Mar 2025 #24
This post by lapucelle helped me see it from a different perspective: liberalla Mar 2025 #25
I appreciate the sentiment angrychair Mar 2025 #28
Same here. WHat changed my opinion was when I learned that a shutdown could be permanent. And they would Amaryllis Mar 2025 #54
I certainly think it's more nuanced politically than that. MontanaFarmer Mar 2025 #27
That seems unlikely angrychair Mar 2025 #32
11 people ibegurpard Mar 2025 #33
No they were wrong mountain grammy Mar 2025 #29
I agree angrychair Mar 2025 #40
Senators and Representatives are elected to do the will of the voters 3825-87867 Mar 2025 #34
If that were true we would have never had the Civil Right Act pass Wiz Imp Mar 2025 #41
I doubt a majority of residents in their states wanted the government to be shut down. MichMan Mar 2025 #81
No. 10 took the bullets so the others can stand on principle. I get it. SunSeeker Mar 2025 #35
Sorry to brust that bubble angrychair Mar 2025 #42
It's not a "bubble." Dial back the condescension a touch. SunSeeker Mar 2025 #47
We blew our chances angrychair Mar 2025 #50
Yes, according to the K-street beltway creatures that control things Bluetus Mar 2025 #44
Screw Fetterman and the others...he dresses like he's poor Tribetime Mar 2025 #55
There is indeed a third option. Morbius Mar 2025 #61
I think it's more like... LudwigPastorius Mar 2025 #62
The defense of the 10 remind me of Garland. Emile Mar 2025 #63
Faulty reasoning using the logical fallacy of appeal to majority EdmondDantes_ Mar 2025 #65
Not about the majority angrychair Mar 2025 #71
Weird that you say it's not about the majority since that's the entire argument EdmondDantes_ Mar 2025 #75
As far as he is concerned, these 10 democrats and every fucking republican were right Autumn Mar 2025 #70
Does the majority of US citizens want the government to be shut down for a long extended period of time? Martin Eden Mar 2025 #76
It was all theater! They were all in on it AkFemDem Mar 2025 #78
So the 10 were right and tramp and the republicans would do nothing to harm America even though 3825-87867 Mar 2025 #80
Those 10 were the adults who stopped a tragic shutdown tritsofme Mar 2025 #82
Those 10 voted with the Republican majority. Emile Mar 2025 #85
They did the right thing, and denied Musk the shutdown he desperately wanted. tritsofme Mar 2025 #87
Trump and Musk think they did the right thing too. Emile Mar 2025 #88
They wanted a shutdown "caused" by Democrats to muddy the waters tritsofme Mar 2025 #89
Trump praised Schumer Emile Mar 2025 #90
A good indication that Trump is lying is that his lips are moving. tritsofme Mar 2025 #91
Is Schumer dotting the I and crossing the t? Emile Mar 2025 #92
I have no idea what that is supposed to mean, but sure. tritsofme Mar 2025 #94
LOL Emile Mar 2025 #95
"History has tried to teach us that we can't have good government under politicians. Ping Tung Mar 2025 #83
Maybe it is a situation both a little bit right, both a little bit wrong. I seem to read valid and strong LizBeth Mar 2025 #93
The only ones in the wrong are Trump and his MAGAt cult. aeromanKC Mar 2025 #99
Right now, instead of doing his job angrychair Mar 2025 #100
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