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happyslug

(14,779 posts)
50. Ballistics tests are a waste of time
Mon Dec 17, 2012, 09:38 PM
Dec 2012

I am assuming when you use the term "Ballistic Tests" you are referring to actual pictures of bullets fired from a gun NOT how that bullet travels through the air.

Ballistics test work, if you mean the markings on bullets after they have been fired, are only good if you get two rounds fire close enough to each other so you can get a match. The problem such ballistics is the result of wear and tear on the barrel, shooting more rounds or even cleaning the bore can change ballistics. Remember most barrels are worn down after firing 20,000 to 25,000 rounds. In a modern Assault rifle that can be done in normal combat in about 3-4 months. In such conditions the ballistics can change by the hour simply by the mere volume of shooting.

While, Civilian weapons are fired less often then military weapons, firing just a few rounds would change ballistics so much that that the one on record would be useless within a week of its bring fired and recorded.

It is for this reason ballistics are used only in actual shootings where the weapon can be tracked down. In most such cases, it is HARD to fire the weapon so that its ballistics are changed, but merely cleaning the barrel may be enough to make the ballistic test just show it is the type of gun that COULD have been fired, not that it was fired.

Funding mental health treatment from the sales of firearms will effect every US agency involved with the environment. Present US law taxes firearms 15% for Federal Conservation efforts. To add a tax for Mental Health care would reduce sales of firearms and thus reduce the money for these agencies. The reason the 15% tax rate has not changed since the early 1900s is that if you increase it to much more, you will get more people finding ways around the tax. This is a problem with any sales or use tax, it is more a nuisance then a tax to avoid up to about 10%, above that level you start to see massive evasion of such taxes. Given the restrictions on who can sell a firearm, the 15% tax rate is low enough NOT to encourage evasion, but if you raise it to much higher, you are asking for evasion. Such evasion will encourage illegal gun sales which does NOT help the people with Mental Health or the limited funds for Federal Conservation efforts.

The same with mental health reports, doctors will just sign what ever is needed if and when they are paid. If you hold the Doctor Liable for such reports, then they will NOT do such reports, but then force people into the illegal arms market (remember prohibition and today's war of Drugs? Remember ow successful they have been given no legal substitution is possible?). Legal Substitution, i,e, Restricted but legal Alcohol sales drove most moonshiners out of business, but if no legal sales are possible for most people, then illegal business boomed. Thus, by requiring a doctor's report and punishing the doctor if it is wrong is just driving people into the illegal arms market, something we do NOT need to expand.

We already regulate the sale of firearms, the problem is what happens if both parents die and the Children inherit the weapons? This comes up in Bars quite often, the law is clear, for example take a the one year heir, such a baby will own the bar due to his parent's death, but can not enter it for the baby is under 21. In many ways the same for firearms among family members, People transfer weapons among family members all the time, just like Automobile ownership (through off road vehicles would be a better comparison, for the State hold no title for such vehicles unlike automobiles that operate on the highways). The problem is how do you handle such situations without TAKING the property of the Child? The answer is something like the law is now, private transfer is permitted if among family members, unless it is illegal for the person who inherits the item to inherit the item, then such person has to dispose of it in a commercially reason matter (i.e. sell it or give it away, but not touch it if we have a felon that inherits a firearm)

Now in the most recent mass killing it is clear the large capacity magazine was an essential part of the reason for so many dead (Just like the easy access to explosives was the key to the even larger death toll in the 1927 Bath School house massacre, where 58 people died). These magazines permitted constant fire from the rifle. The shooter seems to have been well trained in how to operate the weapon. Ar-15 actions, while reliable, are noted for jamming. You have to be trained on what to do to unjam it quickly (Most just "jams" can be fixed within seconds). In the Aurora Movie Shooting, that shooter seems NOT have been trained on what to do if the weapon jammed. Thus he ended up throwing away his AR-15 Type rifle when it jammed and reverting to his less effective pistols.

Bath School disaster:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

Aurora Movie shooting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Aurora_shooting

Thus, part of the reason for the mass death was the shooter had the training on how to use his weapon. That was a bigger factor then the large capacity Magazine. The problem is it is hard to prevent such training if someone wants to do it. This occurred in 1997 At Penn State, a student took a 7mm Mauser Bolt Action rifle and opened fire, killing 1, wounding three. What worked against that shooter is she decided to fire from an open location, so people had places to run to AND someone could charge her from a position she could NOT see. That was NOT the case in the School, the hallways contained any attack to two directions and while the Principal and the School Nurse did attack (which is what you do in such situations). In effect the Penn State Shooter had the weapon to do a mass killing but her choice of position permitted her capture AND permitted most of her potential victims to run for cover. People tend to forget, that 5 round magazine 7mm Mauser is an ideal weapon for mass murder, it has enough fire power to keep most attackers at bay and enough fire power to do what this shooter did with his AR-15.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hetzel_Union_Building_shooting

As to recording rounds purchased, you have a problem, it is that the US reloads it ammunition and US Ammunition is noted for being re-loadable, all you need is powder and primers (and generally a sizing tool to make sure the expended shell is sized back down to size). I first ran across this unpleasant "fact" during the Vietnam War. During that War, the US wanted to aid certain guerrillas in Laos, but did NOT want to give them any ammunition that could be traced back to the US. The problem was the US wanted to produce the Ammunition but the US and Canada are the only country, as a general rule, that use British designed Boxer primers, due to the fact they are one piece and thus easy to be removed for the Shell to be reloaded. The rest of the work uses Brendan Primers, designed by an American during the Civil War and permitted easier mass production but harder to reload. Due to this problem the US had to look for a country that uses Boxer primers and mark the ammunition as coming from that country. The US went as far away as it could, to Canada.

I bring this up, for reloading is done in the US and is extensive. More and more of it is on the net. Thus restricting who has access to such ammunition is a waste of time.

Sorry, you proposal will not work for the above reasons, a better set of social improvements would be as follows:

1. Increase spending on Mental Health Care, including a two way system. System "A" is a voluntary system where people can agree to get Mental Health care at no cost AND they can keep their weapons. I mention the later requirement for I have run across a couple of people, who were in need of mental health care but would NOT apply for it, for they MAY lose their weapons. Sorry, we want them to seek care, more then we want to take their weapons away.

The alternative system, what I call System "B" is that anyone can report anyone else as a danger to themselves and others (this is the law today, so no change is needed as to reporting, through that people can make such a report should be advertised on TV and other media), taken to a place of mental care and checked out. If the person opts for system A no problems, if he refuses to permit care then the intake specialist should do a quick analysis and either commit him or not. If committed held for three days and then the patient's case is reviewed by a Judge. If the Judge, based on the report of the Psychiatrists keeps the person in the Mental Care Hospital such enforced care should be grounds to deny access to any weapons in any house the patient may live in.

2. Increase spending for Mental Health Care, including housing for such people in a structured housing situation (i.e. they MUST be in at certain times, they must do certain things and if they do not they go into more restrictive housing). Increase spending on people who visits and support families with such people in their households. This will NOT be cheap, unless you understand it is the best way to catch such shooters before they actually kill anyone. You have to spend money to prevent losses as occurred in Connecticut but so far, as a society we have been reluctant to pay for such treatment.

3. In High School, where Schizophrenia tends to develop in males (Schizophrenia tends to develop in females in ten years later) AND other problems start to occur, students should be reported by their teachers (and parents or anyone else) and evaluated by Psychologists to see if they have any long term problems. I do not mean normal teen age hang ups. i.e, Fights in Middle School, sexual language etc (teachers know what I mean) but something more. Such Children should be reported AND seen by an outside Psychologists to determine if anything is wrong. If, in the opinion of the Psychologists there is no real problem, nothing more, but if the Psychologists determined something is up, then a referral to a Psychiatrist is on order.

The reason for the above is Psychologists do a better job of evaluating patients as such patients are today, while Psychiatrists, being Medical Doctors, are better on giving treatment.

All of the above has to be paid by the State or Federal Government, the local school will NOT be able to come up with the funds and neither will the families (and it has to be funded based on need of students NOT a formula as used in Pennsylvania where money for special need children are allocated by total students NOT total students with special education needs). Without funds any program is doomed and taxing firearms will NOT bring in the money needed.

I bring up the above for most shooters are NOT people without a history, but people with a history, including untreated mental health care.

4. All School rooms should have more then one exit, the alternative some exit OTHER then into the hallway the other entrance is in. Had these Children been able to get outside, the loss would have been much lower (as was the case in Penn State). I know this is expensive, but it also permits quicker evacuation of schools in such situations. I know schools will hate them, giving kids alternative ways to leave is some teachers nightmare but the classic solution is a door to the outside that can NOT be use to enter the School room. Such one way doors have been around for over 100 years, easy retrofit to any school with one floor, more expensive in a two or more room school. If done right could make the school look nice, have a "porch" on each floor with steps leading downward (The ugly alternative would be old fashion fire escapes with a door on the bottom floor to prevent people from using them to enter the school).

I am sorry, like fire, such nut cases should be included in the design of any new school. Getting the Children away from the School is the best way to reduce such losses and if you have more then one way to exit each school class room it would be hard for one gun man to kill to many. I know the idea would be no one get killed but we can NOT even guarantee that is case of a fire in school. Remember Napoleon's famous Maxim, to defend everywhere is to defend no where, the same with class rooms, the best defense is to get the children out and dispersed. Do not try to stop such a shooter, it is a waste of time and resources, the solution is to minimize harm if one should break in and that can best be done by dispersion as what happened in Penn State.

95 % of all crimes (including School Shootings) are done with pistols and I have no objection to restrictions on who should have access to pistols. On the other hand restrictions on Rifles and Shotguns are not just cost effective, knives and "Blunt instruments" kill more people then Rifles and Shotguns. In fact more people in most states (there are some exceptions) were killed by Hands, fists and other parts of the body then by Rifles AND Shotguns (West Virginia, Texas, Tennessee. South Carolina, Ohio, North Carolina, Montana, Missouri, Mississippi, Minnesota Michigan, illinois and Indiana are the exceptions with more people killed by Rifles and Shotguns then by Hands and feet):

http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/crimestats

Murder by Weapons by state:
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-20

In fact this shooting is going to screw Connecticut's numbers:
In 2011 the numbers for Connecticut were
54 were murdered by Pistols,
1 by a Rifle.
1 by a Shotgun
38 weapon unreported, but probably a pistol.
18 by knives,
10 by other weapons (generally a "blunt instruments" but maybe explosives) and
6 by fists, hand or feet.

There is a old saying in the law "Tough Cases make bad law" and that is true of tragedies like this one, something has to be done, but lets not pass an ineffective law just because we can (in many ways the 1968 Gun Control Law was passed in such a situation and reason it is considered bad law is that it was rushed into passage due to the various assassinations of the 1960s, a better law could have been made if both sides had taken more time and did it right). The assault weapons ban was a similar bad law, making a weapon illegal based on various aspects for the writers of the law could NOT agree on how to define an "Assault Weapon" without making various other rifles illegal. This was a "wall" they could not get around and thus a bad law was written (With its provision to expire in ten years, which it did),

A better law would be all cities of a certain size must have a free range where people must register to shoot (or if a private range, connected to a central computer to report who is at the range). People, to use the range must report what weapon they are firing. The reason the range would be free is to encourage people to go to the range and self report they shooting. Patterns of firing could then be seen and if certain pattern is found, that shooter would be investigated behind his or her back (check with his neighbors, friends etc check any criminal or psychiatric history). Some one who comes for years and fired 1000 or more rounds, don't worry about him he just likes to shoot. Someone who comes in one week, shoots 1000 rounds, then does not come back, he should be checked out, to many round in to short a time period to be a shooter. It is reports like that that are needed, not if someone purchased an AR-15. The real test if how often is it fired. To much over a very short time period, something is up. After a quick check it may just be a group of friend who got together to due some firing, it may also be someone planning some sort of massive attack. A check on who did the shooting can quickly determine which is which (and often can be done by looking at who else was present or not present.


Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

Works for me. Not Me Dec 2012 #1
WONDERFUL IDEA ROBROX Dec 2012 #145
My husband proposed a "non-violence tax" on all firearms and all Americans to be used for mental Happyhippychick Dec 2012 #2
I would suggest a couple of other things susanr516 Dec 2012 #3
Bingo. How is Sudafed tightly regulated, but not ammunition? Hugabear Dec 2012 #12
It is used to make meth Peregrine Dec 2012 #24
That's Just Silly ProfessorGAC Dec 2012 #126
To prosecute ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2012 #63
I'd argue against that tech3149 Dec 2012 #131
Fees for the sake of having fees? prius4me Dec 2012 #156
A lock would have avoided this adigal Dec 2012 #163
I'm on board with all of that Flashmann Dec 2012 #4
These are all good and there are so many good suggestions coming up here on DU Voice for Peace Dec 2012 #5
I don't agree with retroactively registering guns. upaloopa Dec 2012 #6
Don't you register your car? PADemD Dec 2012 #14
I register my dog too do we register for registering sake? upaloopa Dec 2012 #17
They fear a gun registry but not automobile registry? Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2012 #48
The benefit to society is fewer slaughtered kids DisgustipatedinCA Dec 2012 #52
i own several guns and do not fear a national registry.. frylock Dec 2012 #68
Also, I pay the county $10 a year to own a cat. DURHAM D Dec 2012 #74
"Many people fear a national gun registry..." - Hell, I fear my kids being shot at school groundloop Dec 2012 #142
Weren't the guns that killed all those innocent children last week registered? forthemiddle Dec 2012 #169
car registration azureblue Dec 2012 #71
Perfect! JimDandy Dec 2012 #82
Registrtion is only required for vehicles operated on public roads. OneTenthofOnePercent Dec 2012 #86
Well stated bw3517 Dec 2012 #96
You would fine them AFTER a crime or accident? thecrow Dec 2012 #22
You can't punish them for breaking a law until upaloopa Dec 2012 #23
Ya know, by that logic abortion access legislation should be enacted only by women Liberal Gramma Dec 2012 #55
Because that has worked so well up to now, hasn't it? Ikonoklast Dec 2012 #58
One reason... Jeff In Milwaukee Dec 2012 #80
Registration, OK sir pball Dec 2012 #157
Three things: flamin lib Dec 2012 #61
Spoken like a true billh58 Dec 2012 #66
Are you talking to me? I'm not a gunner upaloopa Dec 2012 #76
If it talks like a duck... billh58 Dec 2012 #97
Pardon me for a moment Sherman A1 Dec 2012 #111
That's bullshit.You should WANT to register all of your firearms.No excuse.At least register.Maybe judesedit Dec 2012 #113
So where do we go from here with this? Squinch Dec 2012 #7
yes, like you said, a buyback program wyldwolf Dec 2012 #112
Graded weapons licensees. JoePhilly Dec 2012 #8
What need would there be for military-style semi-automatic weapons Patiod Dec 2012 #13
You build that into the grading system. JoePhilly Dec 2012 #15
Brilliant. Now that the nation is finally gaining a tenuous grasp on sanity regarding drugs, Egalitarian Thug Dec 2012 #9
shhhhh Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2012 #30
gun control doesn't work in other countries? CreekDog Dec 2012 #144
26 people were not beaten to death with a bong on Friday n/t Scootaloo Dec 2012 #37
Do you honestly believe that passing a law banning whatever is going to stop people from Egalitarian Thug Dec 2012 #56
This bullshit again. "People will break the law, so don't bother having a law!" Scootaloo Dec 2012 #59
You're right. You're not an expert. This is a trade that you can learn by mail filling out a form on Egalitarian Thug Dec 2012 #60
So now that you've thrown your little fit, you're done. Gee, I wonder why we never Egalitarian Thug Dec 2012 #78
Actually, it does.... Jeff In Milwaukee Dec 2012 #94
Actually it doesn't. Everybody in America that really wants a full-auto rifle/pistol Egalitarian Thug Dec 2012 #110
I would love the weapons your 'gun-runners' ..... daleanime Dec 2012 #124
To own? Why? Egalitarian Thug Dec 2012 #137
Because it would likely blow-up... daleanime Dec 2012 #165
You apparently have come to the erroneous conclusion that firearms are some Egalitarian Thug Dec 2012 #166
My "erroneous conclusion"? daleanime Dec 2012 #167
I see what you did there. Egalitarian Thug Dec 2012 #168
Big K/R from a gun owner Autumn Dec 2012 #10
How about a skills test to obtain a license? rgbecker Dec 2012 #11
That's what gun nuts want to avoid azureblue Dec 2012 #72
Why is it bw3517 Dec 2012 #91
Cars aren't designed for the express purpose of killing theKed Dec 2012 #102
I see what you did there... billh58 Dec 2012 #106
Sounds good. GreenPartyVoter Dec 2012 #130
Parents of mentally ill children PADemD Dec 2012 #16
I got rid of mine for that very reason Throckmorton Dec 2012 #34
I worked with someone who did the same xmas74 Dec 2012 #39
I was thinking the same thing plus some more. Every gun owner should neverforget Dec 2012 #18
6. And re-register existing firearms . . . MrModerate Dec 2012 #19
What's that shadow on your face? Doc Holliday Dec 2012 #36
7 is unconstitutional per Heller hack89 Dec 2012 #64
Well, then it's time to do something . . . MrModerate Dec 2012 #83
So you are looking for a multi-generational solution? hack89 Dec 2012 #84
As opposed to doing nothing . . . MrModerate Dec 2012 #99
There are many practical things that can be done hack89 Dec 2012 #114
Let's do them, too. n/t MrModerate Dec 2012 #118
Are there any penalties involved for failure to follow the rules? thecrow Dec 2012 #20
If you put two mags through a gun, and then clean the barrel... AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #43
They tried to implement the powder tags at one time, during the Clinton Administration. RC Dec 2012 #67
Bring it back. Make it an either-or proposition. AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #70
Insurance & accountabllity bongbong Dec 2012 #21
Sounds pretty good. JDPriestly Dec 2012 #25
no one has a right to own a gun outside of the construct of a well regulated militia...... bowens43 Dec 2012 #26
Good ideas rwheeler31 Dec 2012 #27
As an addendum to No. 5 . . . ET Awful Dec 2012 #28
I like it. Here are some more I would suggest: Gore1FL Dec 2012 #29
A Good Start To Meaningful Change cantbeserious Dec 2012 #31
I agree 100% ybbor Dec 2012 #32
This makes total sense unless your're a crazied tea bagger with a desire to take down the govt. SleeplessinSoCal Dec 2012 #33
Terrific ideas! I like them all! calimary Dec 2012 #35
Sounds like Canada riverbendviewgal Dec 2012 #38
As long as the same applies for the Police. nm. LeftofU Dec 2012 #40
I like the idea of taxes going towards mental health....but lib2DaBone Dec 2012 #41
Inline. AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #42
Re: #4 - DURHAM D Dec 2012 #73
The Bill of Responsibilities Godot51 Dec 2012 #44
I'm okay with exempting single-shot black powder devices & National Guard service. politicat Dec 2012 #45
Error. AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #75
Thanks! politicat Dec 2012 #87
Sure. AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #98
So, does common sense tell us where the money to do these things can be found? Llewlladdwr Dec 2012 #46
Well then let's do nothing Hugabear Dec 2012 #47
Why do you feel that something MUST be done? Llewlladdwr Dec 2012 #49
After last week, you can say that with a straight face? Hugabear Dec 2012 #53
Is this how you talk bw3517 Dec 2012 #92
See ya later, troll Hugabear Dec 2012 #119
Are you human? Why DON'T you feel something should be done? DisgustipatedinCA Dec 2012 #54
Post removed Post removed Dec 2012 #93
You're among your betters DisgustipatedinCA Dec 2012 #101
No, we should ban billh58 Dec 2012 #108
What about the rights of those 20 children? BainsBane Dec 2012 #116
Yes, it's all about YOU BainsBane Dec 2012 #117
+1000 billh58 Dec 2012 #121
Ballistics tests are a waste of time happyslug Dec 2012 #50
Okay. It think there is ground we can work from. TheKentuckian Dec 2012 #51
I actually take issue with #5, those things jam more easily, which is a good thing. Sirveri Dec 2012 #57
As part of the process of getting a gun license Glaisne Dec 2012 #62
Hubby and I have been talking about this for a few days. Bette Noir Dec 2012 #65
A few ideas clutter424 Dec 2012 #69
Now, post this on Facebook and say it came from Morgan Freeman, or Warren Buffett. ProgressoDem Dec 2012 #77
This is some of what I wrote to the President yesterday bkkyosemite Dec 2012 #79
This is moderate and well-reasonsed... Jeff In Milwaukee Dec 2012 #81
How about some technological proposals. backscatter712 Dec 2012 #85
This is excellent. russspeakeasy Dec 2012 #88
Not a bad idea at all! defacto7 Dec 2012 #89
No concealed or open carry. How can you know they aren't on their way to a massacre? on point Dec 2012 #90
How can I be sure bw3517 Dec 2012 #95
The difference is a hair trigger.... on point Dec 2012 #148
Pretty good shenmue Dec 2012 #100
All ammo must be inspected and counted by the police... 6502 Dec 2012 #103
I'm on board with each and every one. Barack_America Dec 2012 #104
what happens to a Dr. who okays someone who then goes 'postal'...? Mel Content Dec 2012 #105
My 2 cents worth... icarusxat Dec 2012 #107
No, no, no, no, and no UndahCovah Dec 2012 #109
"The idea of there being a massive "gun problem" in this country is a myth" Hugabear Dec 2012 #120
Its not NRA UndahCovah Dec 2012 #123
You don't think that we have a major gun problem in this country? Hugabear Dec 2012 #129
Statistics don't lie nt UndahCovah Dec 2012 #133
Post removed Post removed Dec 2012 #135
So you're saying the Gun Control Act of 1968 was actually pretty effective? bullwinkle428 Dec 2012 #125
Post removed Post removed Dec 2012 #134
Treat guns and ammo like dynamite. Require a federal license be obtained before sinkingfeeling Dec 2012 #115
I agree wizard.66 Dec 2012 #127
I don't disagree, but the devil's in the details Bake Dec 2012 #122
well your suggestion are indeed interesting especially the part about azurnoir Dec 2012 #128
Guns and ammo are already specially taxed. former9thward Dec 2012 #132
Then tax them more. Hugabear Dec 2012 #136
Eliminating private sales would be as successful as eliminating private car sales. former9thward Dec 2012 #141
Uh, private car sales billh58 Dec 2012 #149
Uh, title and registration are easily enforced by the police observing random traffic. former9thward Dec 2012 #150
Really? billh58 Dec 2012 #152
When all you have are insults you have lost the argument. former9thward Dec 2012 #161
I honestly did not billh58 Dec 2012 #162
K and also R. sibelian Dec 2012 #138
Instead of getting a doctor's approval, how about hedgehog Dec 2012 #139
That's a fantastic idea... Serve The Servants Dec 2012 #151
And what happens when the next guy blows up a school with a bomb? davidn3600 Dec 2012 #140
So.... we're just supposed to accept children being slaughtered by guns???? groundloop Dec 2012 #143
People will be slaughtered no matter what davidn3600 Dec 2012 #153
Then how do you billh58 Dec 2012 #154
This attitude drives me nuts. Chorophyll Dec 2012 #158
DUI = lose gun. Assault =- lose gun. underpants Dec 2012 #146
Assault conviction you do lose your gun already. Glassunion Dec 2012 #147
None of these ideas would have prevented Sandy Hook prius4me Dec 2012 #155
But maybe they'll prevent some future shooting incidents? Chorophyll Dec 2012 #159
+1000 billh58 Dec 2012 #160
Background and mental checks would need to cover everyone in the house, not just the owner Dems to Win Dec 2012 #164
I'd go one step further and make the gun licence as obtuse and annoying like the DMV. apnu Dec 2012 #170
Let's summarize Glaisne Dec 2012 #171
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