General Discussion

librechik

(30,956 posts)

11. "negative liberty"

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 10:20 AM

Dec 2012

"John Jay, in Federalist Papers No. 2, stated that: "Nothing is more certain than the indispensable necessity of Government, and it is equally undeniable, that whenever and however it is instituted, the people must cede to it some of their natural rights, in order to vest it with requisite powers." Jay's meaning would be better expressed by substituting "negative liberty" in place of "natural rights", for the argument here is that the power or authority of a legitimate government derives in part from our accepting restrictions on negative liberty."

also:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/liberty-positive-negative/

We are all slaves of one sort or another in today's industrialized society. We have the illusion of freedom because we are allowed the sacred choice between Republican or Democrat, Coke or Pepsi, paper or plastic. It is what it is. A trap. Freepers think freedom is being able to blow people away, to usurp, as it were, the power of government or God. As long as we are all trapped in negative freedom, rebels and lunatics will lash out at the restriction and smash our happiness repeatedly.And as people of peace, we can only turn the other cheek and speak out, appealing to our common humanity, however we can.

http://archive.org/details/AdamCurtis_TheTrap

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Now do you understand why so many of us termed our vote as being for the lesser of two evils? [View all] MadHound Dec 2012 OP

But, but, but....you just wait! We have to pick and choose our battles! The next one will be EPIC! Earth_First Dec 2012 #1

someday our party will use all that dry powder it has saved up hfojvt Dec 2012 #26

Dry powder? RC Dec 2012 #77

Whatever your title means brush Dec 2012 #183

"The President has stood firm on no SS age raise". No he hasn't. At best, various people have said AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #189

Social Security has nothing to do with the debt or the deficit. RC Dec 2012 #209

I don't think you're keeping up to date on this brush Dec 2012 #221

i believe he also said that benefits to current retirees wouldn't change - but chained cpi is a cut. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #232

I don't think you are keeping up RC Dec 2012 #240

What are you talking about? zentrum Dec 2012 #241

It's because we went through this on healthcare and the 2010 tax cut thing. Ken Burch Dec 2012 #268

Thanks for a voice of reason! denvine Dec 2012 #280

I think you all of you are wrong and short-sighted. kelliekat44 Dec 2012 #90

Your heading in that post says it all and affirms what the OP said above. cui bono Dec 2012 #159

100% AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #190

And as many of us were afraid he would. sabrina 1 Dec 2012 #199

for all Mr. Obama's gifts and they are prodigious roguevalley Dec 2012 #239

Cutting Social Security benefits is building a legacy JEB Dec 2012 #252

no. spanone Dec 2012 #2

It was always that way for me. ananda Dec 2012 #3

Hillary and Bill Clinton were the original corporate Democrats. Can't imagine that anyone would JDPriestly Dec 2012 #118

+100. they invented third way, & they're buddy-buddy with the bushes. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #233

And a vote for Hillary was, dare I say it, ashling Dec 2012 #143

Sure, Sekhmets Daughter Dec 2012 #4

Obama has veto power Fumesucker Dec 2012 #7

Trying for what? Sekhmets Daughter Dec 2012 #24

But ... But ... But ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2012 #108

Exactly. Sekhmets Daughter Dec 2012 #133

Unemployment benefits can be dealt with in a separate bill. JDPriestly Dec 2012 #121

Is anyone paying attention to the negotiations? Sekhmets Daughter Dec 2012 #137

They want the Republicans to compromise, not Obama. cui bono Dec 2012 #162

It really doesn't matter Sekhmets Daughter Dec 2012 #184

That's what I'm saying. The voters have been mislead by the messaging. cui bono Dec 2012 #203

I think I've addressed this in another reply.... Sekhmets Daughter Dec 2012 #215

"because the democrats have been hamstrung". no, the democrats have pretty much behaved HiPointDem Dec 2012 #266

Exactly right. Dems need to start framing the issues and stop using Republican cui bono Dec 2012 #289

I wasn't aware paulk Dec 2012 #174

And we have so many voices from the right here on DU.... Sekhmets Daughter Dec 2012 #176

The Dems are center at best now, and the Republicans are extreme right wing. cui bono Dec 2012 #180

I won't argue about that.... Sekhmets Daughter Dec 2012 #201

First, that's not true. Dems outvoted Repubs for house seats but more Repubs cui bono Dec 2012 #205

This was not a particularly low voter turnout election Sekhmets Daughter Dec 2012 #212

"by modern standards". black voters were the only group that kept their energy level from 2008, HiPointDem Dec 2012 #234

You are relying upon polls? If the Gallup poll just before the election was right, Romney would the AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #191

I'm not talking about Sekhmets Daughter Dec 2012 #197

You know what? quakerboy Dec 2012 #182

False, forced choice. The reason people will lose their unemployment benefits is because pubs HiPointDem Dec 2012 #265

Agreed. There is a false dichotomy being presented in this thread. cui bono Dec 2012 #288

Hell, at this rate we'll have Democrats privatizing Social Security as well, MadHound Dec 2012 #8

Then consider yourself warned. Sekhmets Daughter Dec 2012 #21

So you're willing to sacrifice others, the poor and least among us, MadHound Dec 2012 #29

Will the Republicans return that $13? louis c Dec 2012 #39

So we just continue to sacrifice more and more, bit by bit instead? MadHound Dec 2012 #43

I would agree that we could follow your advice louis c Dec 2012 #46

No it wouldn't, geez. MadHound Dec 2012 #52

Is there a specific action that you have in mind? Blanks Dec 2012 #136

YES. go over the "fiscal cliff" and start negotiations in January AFTER the Bush tax cuts expire. robinlynne Dec 2012 #141

That's not really what I mean. Blanks Dec 2012 #276

yes, the plan is to become a Precinct Committeeman & get into gov Tea Party style KakistocracyHater Dec 2012 #243

Voting for Nader in 2000 is that shit that will take 40+ years to clean up. bluestate10 Dec 2012 #65

'Scuse me, but please provide a link to a post of mine back in '08 MadHound Dec 2012 #71

So, you would throw your vote down a shit hole with the result being republicans gaining bluestate10 Dec 2012 #76

A big problem is, we're not even "allowed" to be critical and try to push Obama cui bono Dec 2012 #164

let's see, that nader election was how many years ago? how long do you plan on blaming nader HiPointDem Dec 2012 #267

I remember 1968 louis c Dec 2012 #150

LOL. JoeyT Dec 2012 #251

Absolutely correct about Nader Bohunk68 Dec 2012 #282

She didn't say that she was willing to sacrifice others. bluestate10 Dec 2012 #48

So, we should sacrifice the elderly and poor for gay rights? MadHound Dec 2012 #55

Her point was the size of the sacrifice. $13 per month is not an impossible amount to make up. bluestate10 Dec 2012 #73

But that's a slippery slope. And if the Dems know we will always be there no matter what cui bono Dec 2012 #172

You are not thinking logically. Sekhmets Daughter Dec 2012 #206

Totally disagree. I was completely logical. cui bono Dec 2012 #257

So Dems don't show up if they think there is no point and Sekhmets Daughter Dec 2012 #275

No, that's not what I said at all. cui bono Dec 2012 #287

I am not misconstruing anything.... Sekhmets Daughter Dec 2012 #290

Thank you. Sekhmets Daughter Dec 2012 #139

So you are willing to sacrifice everyone, including the poor, Sekhmets Daughter Dec 2012 #98

You are fine now, but how will you be when you are 85 or 95? JDPriestly Dec 2012 #128

And what will the climate look like when your 85? raouldukelives Dec 2012 #135

I'm all for saving the environment. We drive very little. JDPriestly Dec 2012 #246

If only everyone could do as much. raouldukelives Dec 2012 #286

If we don't see another Sekhmets Daughter Dec 2012 #142

I don't think I will be the one deciding whether we get another Democratic president. JDPriestly Dec 2012 #244

As before quakerboy Dec 2012 #185

Nor do I.... Sekhmets Daughter Dec 2012 #216

Ive never yet abandoned my values, or my party. quakerboy Dec 2012 #248

The vast majority of the long-term unemployed have already exhausted our UI. DearHeart Dec 2012 #256

All of our elections have been based Sekhmets Daughter Dec 2012 #274

I agree with everything you said! DearHeart Dec 2012 #285

They're doing it to public ed duffyduff Dec 2012 #119

Thank you for your concern jollyreaper2112 Dec 2012 #5

+1 limpyhobbler Dec 2012 #58

and many of us can't wait to rub your Madhound nose in it Whisp Dec 2012 #6

Mandate? Fumesucker Dec 2012 #9

It already happened. The President has OFFERED TO CUT SS while giving more breaks to the rich. Dawgs Dec 2012 #13

Link and quote? tia uponit7771 Dec 2012 #14

It was on Yahoo News this morning - n/t lbrtbell Dec 2012 #100

just because you said that and want to believe it Whisp Dec 2012 #23

Actually, I would love for you to rub my nose in what doesn't happen, MadHound Dec 2012 #28

Please to be too angry with some of these younger folks nolabels Dec 2012 #91

I don't understand it... KansDem Dec 2012 #10

"negative liberty" librechik Dec 2012 #11

Wait.. What? Yesterday he was the greatest President ever. Dawgs Dec 2012 #12

Pay attention to the recs and the comments and you'll see CakeGrrl Dec 2012 #17

Just as the "he can do no wrong for he is a chess master" crowd isn't showing up here. cui bono Dec 2012 #179

She should put Bernie Saunders on her list as well. Puglover Dec 2012 #279

Same here...there is only one party now. The party that screws over the vulnerable. forestpath Dec 2012 #15

I've been voting my conscience Le Taz Hot Dec 2012 #16

Thanks for the vote dude! snooper2 Dec 2012 #18

Obama won, Nader sucks - get over it jpak Dec 2012 #19

Oh, it's this post again... SidDithers Dec 2012 #20

This time it's absolutely gonna happen!!! JoePhilly Dec 2012 #188

Any vote that is not for a Dem is a vote for a Reep. riqster Dec 2012 #22

So, what do you call a vote for a Dem who governs like a moderate 'Pug? MadHound Dec 2012 #31

I call it "not as bad as a right-wing Reep" riqster Dec 2012 #36

So you will vote to continue to give your family shit, in some quantity large or small instead, MadHound Dec 2012 #40

The individual initiative is not the issue riqster Dec 2012 #45

And that is something that can be changed now, can't it. MadHound Dec 2012 #50

I didn't say I was giving in riqster Dec 2012 #67

So when are you going to make this miraculous changeover of yours? MadHound Dec 2012 #72

Meh. riqster Dec 2012 #86

+100 n/t BlancheSplanchnik Dec 2012 #96

MadHound, I am with you 100%. dotymed Dec 2012 #111

I went to a garden party. SouthernDonkey Dec 2012 #217

I'm not voting for Obama again Autumn Dec 2012 #25

I'm not voting for him again either! democrattotheend Dec 2012 #154

Well, the honeymoon is over. Time to emotinally disconnect. Baitball Blogger Dec 2012 #27

Touching SS is a bridge to far for me, I'm a liberal. k&r Little Star Dec 2012 #30

that line of thinking got us Scott Walker louis c Dec 2012 #32

No, he doesn't have to compromise, not in this case MadHound Dec 2012 #37

and then in Feb. face the debt ceiling vote?. louis c Dec 2012 #44

That's the thing, MadHound Dec 2012 #47

On the environment, Obama gets an F minus... joeybee12 Dec 2012 #33

Since the first time I voted Flashmann Dec 2012 #34

You make it sound like you invented the wheel. WilliamPitt Dec 2012 #35

Didn't invent a damn thing, MadHound Dec 2012 #38

Tom Tomorrow said it all rather succinctly Fumesucker Dec 2012 #41

That's a good toon. n/t Uncle Joe Dec 2012 #116

Nose holding and voting for the "lesser of two evils" is a highly over rated pastime. Tierra_y_Libertad Dec 2012 #42

No I don't. It is completely incomprehensible to me. I think that anyone grantcart Dec 2012 #49

how about paulk Dec 2012 #178

I guess you're ok with chained CPI then. nt hay rick Dec 2012 #222

Amen with a caveat: This is not only about Medicare and Social Security. woo me with science Dec 2012 #51

+1 This should be its own OP leftstreet Dec 2012 #54

"ostentatiously "saved" at the last minute" limpyhobbler Dec 2012 #59

problem is, there's nothing but speculation like yours to base all of that activism on bigtree Dec 2012 #62

Are you saying you can't see or hear a train coming until it hits you? n/t cui bono Dec 2012 #194

Excellent post, thank you DJ13 Dec 2012 #94

Nailed it AGAIN, woo bvar22 Dec 2012 #114

Neo-liberalism is the enemy duffyduff Dec 2012 #124

You're right, "This is not only about Medicare and" SS. Approval of the TPP will be next. AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #200

Slam dunk woo! Please consider making this an original post for educational purposes! In Truth We Trust Dec 2012 #237

I'm pretty damn sure you're lying to us bigtree Dec 2012 #53

People believe what they want to hear. JNelson6563 Dec 2012 #56

So what are you guys, then? kurtzapril4 Dec 2012 #84

I would guess it's the opposite of an "Obamabot" ? cui bono Dec 2012 #195

+1...nt SidDithers Dec 2012 #63

+1 Yup. FSogol Dec 2012 #123

No I do not see the lesser of two evils argument. iandhr Dec 2012 #57

First of all, what makes you think I don't write? MadHound Dec 2012 #61

I HAVE HEALTHCARE BECUSE OF THE LAW iandhr Dec 2012 #70

Yeah, and under Nixon/Heritage Foundation/Romney/Obama care, MadHound Dec 2012 #75

So would you rather have nothing? iandhr Dec 2012 #81

single payer didn't happen because people like Baucus had single payer advocates arrested green for victory Dec 2012 #126

This country would not have supported single payer. iandhr Dec 2012 #134

If properly packaged, it would have been Lydia Leftcoast Dec 2012 #153

I have health care of the ACA act. iandhr Dec 2012 #155

And as an older person, I am specifically allowed to be charged three times as much as a younger Lydia Leftcoast Dec 2012 #204

Maybe, maybe not, but............. socialist_n_TN Dec 2012 #225

No. You have HEALTH INSURANCE because of the law n/t leftstreet Dec 2012 #80

Obama didn't end the occupation of Iraq any sooner than GWB said so. Lasher Dec 2012 #74

You are wrong about health care reform obama2terms Dec 2012 #173

I'm happy for you, MadHound Dec 2012 #177

Freudian slip? Lasher Dec 2012 #125

I have contacted my Congressman and my Senators. olegramps Dec 2012 #281

There's nothing wrong with voting for the lesser of two evils. pnwmom Dec 2012 #60

No, but this president does have fatal flaws, MadHound Dec 2012 #66

I am not surprised. 99Forever Dec 2012 #64

Yup a lot of people trusted him not to cut social security. Ganja Ninja Dec 2012 #68

Anybody Who RobinA Dec 2012 #101

Oh Madhound, come sit by me. I agree completely. Safetykitten Dec 2012 #69

Careful folks, this could crescendo into a full-blown Nader. nt Snotcicles Dec 2012 #78

Taking from old folks and disabled Vets JEB Dec 2012 #79

I support Obama FreeBC Dec 2012 #82

SS does not add one nickel to the deficit. CALL your reps, people. grahamhgreen Dec 2012 #83

He called it. DeSwiss Dec 2012 #85

Yet Better Actually is Better than Worse PrMaine Dec 2012 #87

Don't let the door hit you on the way out. Hillary45./Kennedy46 graham4anything Dec 2012 #88

Obama hasn't signed anything yet. Let's let him know SS is NOT to be put on the table. reformist2 Dec 2012 #89

I'm holding out for now... ReRe Dec 2012 #92

He betrayed us. MotherPetrie Dec 2012 #93

Who's us? Shivering Jemmy Dec 2012 #104

Everyone who gets or will get Social Security MotherPetrie Dec 2012 #145

Let's all panic, run in circles with our hands in the air, while screaming and shouting.... OldDem2012 Dec 2012 #95

I agree with you. It was the conservative versus the right wing extremists. We voted conservative. Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2012 #97

oh SHUT UP. Obama is not evil for fuck's sake. rivegauche Dec 2012 #99

killing children w/ drones, indefinite detention, assassination w/o any due process, kath Dec 2012 #144

Well i certainly hope you didnt vote for a man who consider evil.. Vietnameravet Dec 2012 #167

Um... did you miss the line: "The lesser of two evils"? n/t cui bono Dec 2012 #196

No i did not... Vietnameravet Dec 2012 #202

This is true. cui bono Dec 2012 #208

I don't see how anyone would have had any question who to vote for in the last election liberal N proud Dec 2012 #102

No. Shivering Jemmy Dec 2012 #103

People are starting to act like republicans think_critically Dec 2012 #105

First mistake: Assuming Obama "has to strike an imperfect deal." WorseBeforeBetter Dec 2012 #230

The old folks need to lube up their rectums lbrtbell Dec 2012 #106

Odd for the old folks to be the victims treestar Dec 2012 #163

No. I don't understand. Zoeisright Dec 2012 #107

Dick Durbin: No cut in Social Security benefits ProSense Dec 2012 #109

This election for me, has always been about the < of the 2. nc4bo Dec 2012 #110

This is absolutely spot-on. alarimer Dec 2012 #112

Deja vu. Seen the movie before. jsr Dec 2012 #113

@RepBarbaraLee: Reducing COLA is a Social Security benefit cut. Any deal that cuts Hissyspit Dec 2012 #115

Agreed, MadHound. Agreed. JDPriestly Dec 2012 #117

CPI nineteen50 Dec 2012 #120

It's ALWAYS about the Lesser of Two Evils! Eric the Reddish Dec 2012 #122

Maybe you should just abandon politics and DU.... DonViejo Dec 2012 #127

I used to ridicule Working CLass people who voted against their economic interests... bvar22 Dec 2012 #129

+ a brazillion, bvar! kath Dec 2012 #146

Shut up. Roll Over, and take it up the ass. Speck Tater Dec 2012 #130

once again thrown under the bus--the less of 2 is still evil dembotoz Dec 2012 #131

they exempt Supplemental Security Income so no ss recipient is pushed below the poverty lvl Sunlei Dec 2012 #132

I'm reminded of the difference between politicians and activists. Fearless Dec 2012 #138

Nothice the one thing he WON'T put on the table for Social Security is raising the contribution cap BlueStreak Dec 2012 #140

Gee, femrap Dec 2012 #147

Don't look at it as alone. jtuck004 Dec 2012 #219

"death by 1000 cuts" is exactly right! How many times can the middle class be stabbed in the back nonoxy9 Dec 2012 #148

Why are you jumping to the conclusion the cuts will be bad? Neon2012 Dec 2012 #149

Because he is not perfect riqster Dec 2012 #152

It's 20 dimensional chess! a2liberal Dec 2012 #151

Yeah! Let's form our own Tea Party and refuse to compromise too! Hamlette Dec 2012 #156

He's right back to the same old shit.... bowens43 Dec 2012 #157

Is our president DINO? I'm sickened, truly sickened & now we understand why the oligarchy. nt mother earth Dec 2012 #158

No, I don't understand JohnnyRingo Dec 2012 #160

They knew it then. At the time though, it was more prudent to their cause NorthCarolina Dec 2012 #161

K&R! I have watched Obama sell out the BP oil spill victims and you won't read or see anything Dustlawyer Dec 2012 #165

No wonder Democrats lose... Vietnameravet Dec 2012 #166

No, thats incorrect.... There is one side who only cares about destroying Obama’s Presidency busterbrown Dec 2012 #168

"I won't support that, and neither should you." Exactly! Anyone that can even TRY to justify any In Truth We Trust Dec 2012 #169

alas, there's this death cult that says that if you point out corpo infiltrators, you're the problem MisterP Dec 2012 #192

Boehner needs to return to his caucus with a few scalps like-mind Dec 2012 #170

Perfect? Lets try sufferable. Hell, there are plenty of Republicans that didn't cut Social Security. TheKentuckian Dec 2012 #227

I've always understood why you've posted that meme Summer Hathaway Dec 2012 #171

Never occurred to you that the unnamed source might be the one lying? Scootaloo Dec 2012 #175

So, it's OK to trust unnamed sources when they're saying something you like, MadHound Dec 2012 #181

Outlets like the Huffington "VACCINES CAUSE AUTISM!" Post? Scootaloo Dec 2012 #186

Who said anything about Huffington Post? MadHound Dec 2012 #207

Does Reuters meet with your approval? MadHound Dec 2012 #210

There we go. Jay Carney. That's a source! Scootaloo Dec 2012 #254

A "Centrist" is someone who wants Democratic votes. AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #187

+1000 blackspade Dec 2012 #193

An assault on the poorest and weakest among us is an assault on the indepat Dec 2012 #198

No, and this is b.s. elleng Dec 2012 #211

Kick & R.. well said... lib2DaBone Dec 2012 #213

I get Social Security Disability Louisiana1976 Dec 2012 #214

I have said those same words..... Curmudgeoness Dec 2012 #218

unrec lillypaddle Dec 2012 #220

"We laugh at Republicans who vote against their own best interests" hay rick Dec 2012 #223

Interesting Thread DaveT Dec 2012 #224

great post. I agree that people forget about the money required to run for national office Liberal_in_LA Dec 2012 #236

I agree with the issue of money and the "obligation" that it brings to elected office, MadHound Dec 2012 #245

Stop complaining and work to change congress ecstatic Dec 2012 #226

LOL! I always love when somebody accuses me of not doing anything. MadHound Dec 2012 #247

Nobody would fairly accuse you of doing nothing. DemocratsForProgress Dec 2012 #264

Voting for Obama doesn't mean a couple million young and old can't stop the country. jtuck004 Dec 2012 #228

K&R woo me with science Dec 2012 #229

kr. "Social Security will be a pale shadow of its former self." = setting it up for privatization. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #231

I afraid you are correct. JEB Dec 2012 #250

Call the WH zentrum Dec 2012 #235

MadHound, and others who commented without any suggestions saidsimplesimon Dec 2012 #238

Oh, but "cutting" benefits is not the same as "slashing" them, truebluegreen Dec 2012 #242

You never disappoint. I remember your last "sky is falling" screed. Tarheel_Dem Dec 2012 #249

SCOTUS was the only reason I had and the only reason I needed to.... yourout Dec 2012 #253

We've been deceived from Day One with Obama. blkmusclmachine Dec 2012 #255

This put me in a very bad mood, but I'm still so very glad that I got to see R$ pumping his own gas. lexw Dec 2012 #258

K&R'ing the OP. snot Dec 2012 #259

Yup voting for Obama was a vote for the lesser evil LostinRed Dec 2012 #260

Social issues are all very well, and certainly Obama is better on those. truebluegreen Dec 2012 #277

we'll have to see what's finally decided upon, but dang, if he does anything that effects Divine Discontent Dec 2012 #261

The odd thing about this betrayal is that many if not most Republicans also oppose cuts to Social JDPriestly Dec 2012 #262

Write this as a letter and mail to the local, state, national Dem party. tblue Dec 2012 #263

Reccing pecwae Dec 2012 #269

No quaker bill Dec 2012 #270

Hyperbolic nonsense. Too many DUers are becoming the TeaLeft Party. RBInMaine Dec 2012 #271

SO... RALPH NADER IS CORRECT?? Iggy Dec 2012 #272

Welcome to politics, its compromise and sometimes, often, you don't get 100% what you want. cecilfirefox Dec 2012 #273

I, on the other hand, choose to wait and see Javaman Dec 2012 #278

Yeah, best to wait until it happens durablend Dec 2012 #283

LOL Javaman Dec 2012 #284