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In reply to the discussion: What I Fear, What Made Me Drag my Feet on Gun Control: Brady-Style Gun Control [View all]TPaine7
(4,286 posts)38. Please interpret another constitutional provision of the era.
The liberty of the press is essential to the security of freedom in a state it ought not, therefore, to be restricted in this commonwealth. Mass. Const. pt. I, art. XVI (1780)
What do you think that is saying?
I went into my take at some length here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=76827
While it is true that the emphasis on individual self-defense was later, the right itself was ALWAYS an individual right. The very first time the Supreme Court mentioned the Second Amendment it called it a right "of person." The idea that this is a personal right is not some modern invention, it was well understood from the beginning:
For example, no one, we presume, will contend that Congress can make any law in a Territory respecting the establishment of religion, or the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech or of the press, or the right of the people of the Territory peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for the redress of grievances.
Nor can Congress deny to the people the right to keep and bear arms, nor the right to trial by jury, nor compel any one to be a witness against himself in a criminal proceeding.
These powers, and others, in relation to rights of person, which it is not necessary here to enumerate, are, in express and positive terms, denied to the General Government;...
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=60&invol=393
Nor can Congress deny to the people the right to keep and bear arms, nor the right to trial by jury, nor compel any one to be a witness against himself in a criminal proceeding.
These powers, and others, in relation to rights of person, which it is not necessary here to enumerate, are, in express and positive terms, denied to the General Government;...
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=60&invol=393
The Framers of the Fourteenth Amendment enshrined in the Constitution their clear, uncompromising understanding that the right was individual:
{The Fourteenth Amendment's} first clause, . . . relates to the privileges and immunities of citizens of the United States . . . . To these privileges and immunities, whatever they may befor they are not and cannot be fully defined in their entire extent and precise natureto these should be added the personal rights guaranteed and secured by the first eight amendments of the Constitution; such as the freedom of speech and of the press; the right of people peaceably to assemble and petition the Government for a redress of grievances, a right appertaining to each and all of the people; the right to keep and bear arms. . . .
The great object of the first section of this amendment is, therefore, to restrain the power of the States and compel them at all times to respect these great fundamental guarantees.Senator Jacob Howard introducing the Fourteenth Amendment to the Senate, quoted by Yale Professor Amar. Akhil Reed Amar, The Bill of Rights, Creation and Reconstruction (Harrisonburg, VA: R.R. Donnelley & Sons Company, 1998), 185-6 (emphases supplied).
The great object of the first section of this amendment is, therefore, to restrain the power of the States and compel them at all times to respect these great fundamental guarantees.Senator Jacob Howard introducing the Fourteenth Amendment to the Senate, quoted by Yale Professor Amar. Akhil Reed Amar, The Bill of Rights, Creation and Reconstruction (Harrisonburg, VA: R.R. Donnelley & Sons Company, 1998), 185-6 (emphases supplied).
While it is true that this was after 1812, it is also true that the Fourteenth Amendment is part of the Constitution, a more important part, I would argue, than the Second. It cannot be ignored. And the language of the Fourteenth Amendment, read in historical context, clearly shows that the Second Amendment is a personal, individual right that is enforceable against the states.
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What I Fear, What Made Me Drag my Feet on Gun Control: Brady-Style Gun Control [View all]
TPaine7
Dec 2012
OP
Alas, when I hear terms like “reasonable” “common sense” and “sensible” coming out of the mouths of
villager
Dec 2012
#2
And a defense of unchecked gun proliferation, at this point, is about as historically astute
villager
Dec 2012
#26
By your own admission, those "rights" were never intended to apply to self defense
Major Nikon
Dec 2012
#25
The guys I cited WROTE the Constitution. The Fourteenth Amendment is constitutionally correct
TPaine7
Dec 2012
#46
There is no need to ignore anything, and Scalia wasn't born when the Framer's wrote the 14th
TPaine7
Dec 2012
#50
So anyone who disagrees with Scalia is equivelant to a climate change denier?
Major Nikon
Dec 2012
#66
"or modification." I haven't really thought the details through, but modification of the Second
TPaine7
Dec 2012
#81
No, solutions must be rooted in reality. Amending the Constitiution would actually achieve your
TPaine7
Dec 2012
#90
The founders meant militias, nor people. So you want original intent, that's what they meant
RantinRavin
Dec 2012
#13
I thought Democrats—Democrats on DU at least—were not rooted, intellectually speaking,
TPaine7
Dec 2012
#55
the poster hasn't 'screamed' or 'pounced' at all. he gave a well-grounded calm argument.
HiPointDem
Dec 2012
#69
Gun control laws should be common. "No discharge of weapons in town" (except in legitimate defense)
TPaine7
Dec 2012
#44
1934 laws are beside the point, the point being laws of the founding era—the era of Thomas Paine nt
TPaine7
Dec 2012
#71
So when Occupy decides to carry openly their weapons, you will finally take them seriously.
madinmaryland
Dec 2012
#19
It seems to me that the strongest gun rights supporters were most eager to give up other rights
Fumesucker
Dec 2012
#20
Ok then, you are properly grouped with those who think the pre-Heller DC legal regime
TPaine7
Dec 2012
#74
Excellent post to point out this aspect of guns. I'm a woman living alone. I know. nt
Honeycombe8
Dec 2012
#27
Why is it nearly always the barely literate that invariably insist that their interpretation of
Egalitarian Thug
Dec 2012
#29
Is your question rhetorical, or are you going to explain the thinking of the barely literate to
TPaine7
Dec 2012
#35
I don't think so. Machine guns can be heavily regulated and even banned per Heller.
TPaine7
Dec 2012
#42
Yes, I believe in magic. And shooting guns out of someone's hand was the subject of the OP. nt
TPaine7
Dec 2012
#40
Are you a Brady absolutist? Do you believe that DC's gun laws were too permissive for an "A"? nt
TPaine7
Dec 2012
#41
What some people want is for mass shootings or home invasions to never happen.
Jennicut
Dec 2012
#52
yes, the devil's always in the details. one reason i'm leary of new regulations is because so
HiPointDem
Dec 2012
#68