General Discussion

BrentWil

(2,384 posts)

35. You can play with the relative numbers some...

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 01:59 AM

Jan 2012

The measurements are never prefect. You can always rework how you measure absolute poverty. The problem with reworking the numbers is that, it just becomes more difficult because relative purchasing power does vary a lot even within a country.

While I am a social scientist at heart and love measurments , I have seen poverty in both the United States and India. There really is no comparison. While $1.25 does buy more in different places, the social welfare net in this country does cover a much higher figure then $1.25 a day. Even adjusted for relative purchasing power, poverty in India is on another scale. I am again not saying that we shouldn't be doing more. We need to build a bigger middle class. The problem with our economy is on the demand side and the best means to solve that is to bring people into a middle class. We have lots of work to do, but India moving in the right direction is not a bad thing.

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Both China and India are Amazing Stories of Poverty Reduction... We Should Stop Demonizing Them [View all] BrentWil Jan 2012 OP

their rates go down and ours go up - while our corporate masters get ever richer nt msongs Jan 2012 #1

That is actually not true... BrentWil Jan 2012 #3

Half the babies born in America are on WIC and more Americans have trouble finding food than Chinese Zalatix Jan 2012 #11

If you are on WIC, you are getting more then $1.25 a day to live on BrentWil Jan 2012 #14

The only way you will help America's poor is to bring American jobs back. Zalatix Jan 2012 #19

Well, "jobs" are coming back... BrentWil Jan 2012 #22

The jobs coming back are very few, and most are very low paying. Your argument is dying here. Zalatix Jan 2012 #27

Those "jobs" aren't coming back... BrentWil Jan 2012 #37

Wrong, wrong, factually wrong, and wrong again. Your math is way, way off. Zalatix Jan 2012 #45

Demand for workers will always go down.. BrentWil Jan 2012 #48

I call bullshit. Show us the new markets. Show us the jobs. Our standard of living is plummeting. Zalatix Jan 2012 #57

Here... BrentWil Jan 2012 #68

Total avoidance of my argument. Because at this point you've got nothin' left. Zalatix Jan 2012 #85

Said poster is a free trade advocate. HughBeaumont Jan 2012 #97

Why is it that your side of the argument treestar Jan 2012 #105

Come live in Northeast Ohio, specifically from 1975-present, and you'll see why. HughBeaumont Jan 2012 #108

That's a label treestar Jan 2012 #109

Point to where anyone's demonizing the workers. I'm certainly not. HughBeaumont Jan 2012 #110

You still don't get it - America is rebelling against your point of view. Zalatix Jan 2012 #112

You are... I think the President just passed a free trade agreement with... BrentWil Jan 2012 #133

"Said poster is a free trade advocate" is not a personal attack, it is the truth. Zalatix Jan 2012 #114

I'd lean toward saying good luck selling your crap with a 10,000 tariff. TheKentuckian Jan 2012 #158

What are you talking about... BrentWil Jan 2012 #132

By 2015 there won't be enough pro-offshoring people left in America to fill a phone booth. Zalatix Jan 2012 #146

That is not true. When 8-hour workday was introduced demand for workers went up. Fool Count Jan 2012 #144

$1.25/day goes a lot further some places than it does in the US. Saving Hawaii Jan 2012 #26

You can play with the relative numbers some... BrentWil Jan 2012 #35

Let's get this straight. China and India are free to get out of poverty. They're NOT free Zalatix Jan 2012 #36

I don't even understand what that means... BrentWil Jan 2012 #39

It's not a zero sum game. It's a negative sum game. If you disagree then please show Zalatix Jan 2012 #53

Job creation numbers since.. BrentWil Jan 2012 #60

2 things wrong with your argument: 1) Job growth isn't matching population growth, and Zalatix Jan 2012 #73

Depends what sort of job, BrentWil Jan 2012 #134

Correction: MOST new jobs created pay very little. Zalatix Jan 2012 #143

Yes.. we have to follow policies that help the American worker.. BrentWil Jan 2012 #150

Tariffs is not isolationism. Otherwise China is isolationist. Do you get it yet? Zalatix Jan 2012 #157

They are a degree of it.. BrentWil Jan 2012 #169

"When people make more then $1.25 a day, we can sell them things. " eShirl Jan 2012 #162

People will and are making more then $1.25 a day.. this is just a measurement for people BrentWil Jan 2012 #170

Exactly loyalsister Jan 2012 #124

Actual deaths from starvation are rare... BrentWil Jan 2012 #135

I realize that loyalsister Jan 2012 #149

That is actually my point BrentWil Jan 2012 #151

We can't buy as much for $1.25 as you can in an underdeveloped country. JDPriestly Jan 2012 #91

Wrong, Mr. Globalist unlawflcombatnt Jan 2012 #120

I most certainly will not..... ingac70 Jan 2012 #2

I hear that. +1000 And here's one about China. Zalatix Jan 2012 #7

The video talks about how 70% of India's child labourers are employed in agriculture. Saving Hawaii Jan 2012 #8

Hopefully that is sarcasm... BrentWil Jan 2012 #12

"Much of India used child labor on farms for centuries." Much of the world really. Saving Hawaii Jan 2012 #13

No. That was my point. BrentWil Jan 2012 #15

Maybe India should employ all their 9 year-olds as janitors like Newt Gingrich suggested. Saving Hawaii Jan 2012 #23

Or create a system in which they educate all their citizens... one or the other BrentWil Jan 2012 #29

I'm certain that if they give all their 9 year-olds janitorial jobs, they'll all become millionaires Saving Hawaii Jan 2012 #44

I'm sure pro-offshoring free traders will find a way to offshore janitorial work while promising us Zalatix Jan 2012 #38

Your point? How about reality. Reality is, we are encouraging slavery by offshoring jobs. Zalatix Jan 2012 #33

So what? unlawflcombatnt Jan 2012 #159

Did I argue that India doesn't have problems? BrentWil Jan 2012 #9

.... ingac70 Jan 2012 #4

And many of those workers will die of "brown lung" Mopar151 Jan 2012 #21

Bingo. Another pro-offshoring thread chokes on its poor logic. n/t Zalatix Jan 2012 #34

Do they have problems? BrentWil Jan 2012 #42

If they are polluting their environment in order to earn $5.00 per day, JDPriestly Jan 2012 #92

More importantly unlawflcombatnt Jan 2012 #160

Name the jobs created in America by offshoring to India and China, please. Zalatix Jan 2012 #5

How do you "run out of jobs"? Saving Hawaii Jan 2012 #10

How do we run out of jobs? Easy. When we become too poor to import goods. Zalatix Jan 2012 #16

Did you really just cite Mises? I'll respond in full tomorrow, but I need to get to sleep. /nt Saving Hawaii Jan 2012 #43

Well, for India and CHina we export a lot of products... BrentWil Jan 2012 #18

Trade hurts us more than it helps us. We lose more jobs than we bring in. It's a negative sum game. Zalatix Jan 2012 #28

Would our country have been better if New York couldn't freely trade with New Jersey? BrentWil Jan 2012 #41

Glad you brought that up. PETRUS Jan 2012 #54

Free movement of labor is also an important goal, and something to work for NT BrentWil Jan 2012 #71

Ohhh nice idea. So Americans should be chasing jobs into places like this Zalatix Jan 2012 #80

+1 redqueen Jan 2012 #125

No, I want an expanding middle class BrentWil Jan 2012 #161

You will never get an expanding middle class as long as we outsource jobs. So... Zalatix Jan 2012 #163

Powerful lobbies prevent it. PETRUS Jan 2012 #87

Bill? Is that you? pipoman Jan 2012 #72

OMFG I am weak from laughing so hard. That was unbelievably, hilariously harsh. Zalatix Jan 2012 #86

But we import far more from these countries than we export -- even at their cheap labor prices. JDPriestly Jan 2012 #93

nope, India is corrupt with a Huge Gap in Wealth, lack of enforcement of laws JI7 Jan 2012 #6

They have problems... BrentWil Jan 2012 #17

Instead you demonize Americans by saying more of us should lose our jobs. Zalatix Jan 2012 #20

Can you provide a quote where I said that? BrentWil Jan 2012 #25

You said, "We don't have to keep demonizing other societies that "take our jobs."" Zalatix Jan 2012 #31

No one is trying to "cower" you... However, you are living in a dream world. BrentWil Jan 2012 #46

True, the world is not returning to 1950 brentspeak Jan 2012 #55

LOL!!!!!! I hear that. Zalatix Jan 2012 #67

Your arguments are sheer delusion. Especially the "win-win" part. It's been all LOSS for America. Zalatix Jan 2012 #66

We won't be over 20% of the world's GDP once we do that... NT BrentWil Jan 2012 #70

Provided you give up any pretense of not being the bad guys. Donald Ian Rankin Jan 2012 #131

All the education in the world isn't going to trump "Cheap" in the eyes of a CEO. HughBeaumont Jan 2012 #98

yes, but i'm not sure how much or where the improvement is JI7 Jan 2012 #24

The numbers giving or those moving from living on less then $1.25 a day to more then $1.25 a day NT BrentWil Jan 2012 #30

You want to see how we're REALLY helping them? See this link. Zalatix Jan 2012 #32

We have high consumption, so what? BrentWil Jan 2012 #40

You totally didn't read the link. I showed IN DETAIL that we're literally KILLING the third world Zalatix Jan 2012 #47

We are killing them, besides for the fact a lot of them are now living off of more then $1.25 a day BrentWil Jan 2012 #50

When it comes at the expense of our jobs and their environment, YES!!! Zalatix Jan 2012 #63

And that was the U.S. in the 1950s or earlier treestar Jan 2012 #104

Aaaaaaand it's *crickets* once again. redqueen Jan 2012 #126

Different issue.. BrentWil Jan 2012 #136

Does it matter? girl gone mad Jan 2012 #61

That isn't the only means they are escaping.. BrentWil Jan 2012 #65

Those are the only choices? girl gone mad Jan 2012 #89

Everything must be monetized, and the number of transactions must increase. PETRUS Jan 2012 #77

It did happen with the US and the west treestar Jan 2012 #101

Why are you ALWAYS found siding against the American worker? Zalatix Jan 2012 #128

F@%& THE PRC!!! n/t ellisonz Jan 2012 #49

Yeah.. we should go bomb them or something.. that would be cool... hahaha BrentWil Jan 2012 #51

If you wish to express sarcasm... ellisonz Jan 2012 #58

Yeah, because China was much better off in 1945.. wait, I mean 1929.... wait I mean 1890... wait... BrentWil Jan 2012 #64

Yeah, I don't know what you mean either. ellisonz Jan 2012 #69

So you're saying the people in China deserve to suffer because of these political things? treestar Jan 2012 #102

China can get rich without taking American jobs. Do you get it yet? Zalatix Jan 2012 #113

How are jobs assigned to a country? treestar Jan 2012 #118

You still, still don't get it. We lose far more jobs than we gain from trade. Why do you deny this? Zalatix Jan 2012 #119

How do you assign jobs to a country? treestar Jan 2012 #166

Oh that's easy. Zalatix Jan 2012 #168

Maybe the people living under the PRC want us to stand-up for them? ellisonz Jan 2012 #121

Who knew that the US Chamber of Commerce had someone posting brentspeak Jan 2012 #52

ad hominem attacks are always silly... BrentWil Jan 2012 #56

How about, "Your arguments are the same that we hear from the US Chamber of Commerce" Zalatix Jan 2012 #59

How about, I like less people in the World living off less then $1.25 a day... BrentWil Jan 2012 #62

How about, let them do it without taking our jobs from us? Zalatix Jan 2012 #75

Jobs move and jobs are created.. BrentWil Jan 2012 #79

You're wrong for the 100th time. Jobs move out of the USA more than they are created. Zalatix Jan 2012 #81

Why is the US economy now creating jobs? BrentWil Jan 2012 #152

For the thousandth time, I'll re-explain this to you, PLEASE pay attention Zalatix Jan 2012 #156

That's exactly what I thought too Populist_Prole Jan 2012 #76

Brent is finding out the hard way that nobody's buying that "offshoring = win for America" bullshit Zalatix Jan 2012 #84

China's population will peak and start to shrink due to their disregard for pollution in an attempt cherokeeprogressive Jan 2012 #74

China's problem isn't that.. BrentWil Jan 2012 #78

Good point. Gender-based abortion will lead to lower birth rates. cherokeeprogressive Jan 2012 #83

Been nice, got to go to bed BrentWil Jan 2012 #82

Sorry this thread didn't go the way you planned. It happens to me too, sometimes! Zalatix Jan 2012 #88

Having to go to sleep isn't me saying your arguments are correct or founded BrentWil Jan 2012 #99

The problem is that as their poverty decreases, ours increases. JDPriestly Jan 2012 #90

Well said. "It should be possible to alleviate the poverty in India and China without increasing it pampango Jan 2012 #115

Another difference. PETRUS Jan 2012 #117

This is good news but clearly there are other associated problems.. DCBob Jan 2012 #94

Bookmarked. Bil Moyers had a great show recently on how progressive countries pampango Jan 2012 #95

I would agree... BrentWil Jan 2012 #100

It's nice to know someone is benefitting by doing what used to be our jobs lunatica Jan 2012 #96

In fairness, if they were all "our jobs" treestar Jan 2012 #103

Yeah, the people get screwed everywhere. lunatica Jan 2012 #147

Not really, the third world countries are getting a taste of what we did in the early 20th century treestar Jan 2012 #165

And jobs are starting to come back anyway treestar Jan 2012 #106

Contrary to the economic propaganda piece you link to brentspeak Jan 2012 #111

You ought to be deleted for the last line treestar Jan 2012 #116

Apple's Jobs to Obama: "jobs aren't coming back" to U.S. redqueen Jan 2012 #127

Someday that won't be the case treestar Jan 2012 #167

I've heard this BS over ten years ago, coming from a friend who is RW newspeak Jan 2012 #107

China and India are separate cases that shouldn't be lumped together. limpyhobbler Jan 2012 #122

Of course they aren't the same.. BrentWil Jan 2012 #140

Both China and India are Amazing Stories of Corporate Exploitation. AdHocSolver Jan 2012 #123

Excellent post! Populist_Prole Jan 2012 #129

Well said. As Redqueen said, your post will get "Crickets!!!" for a response Zalatix Jan 2012 #130

What the hell... BrentWil Jan 2012 #138

Nonsense links? Show which links were nonsense. You can't. You absolutely cannot do that. Zalatix Jan 2012 #141

Nothing like comparing people from a proud democratic tradition (India) BrentWil Jan 2012 #137

You have a unique talent for twisting another person's words to create a straw man. AdHocSolver Jan 2012 #148

You are comparing the results of economic reforms done by a democracy to American Slavery... BrentWil Jan 2012 #154

I am also acquainted with an Indian family living in the US. Very nice people, very intelligent... BrentWil Jan 2012 #155

well, at least the hunter-gatherers newspeak Jan 2012 #164

You have very little proof that their life was one of leisure... BrentWil Jan 2012 #171

Isn't the OP basically praising a return to the Laissez-Faire Capitalism of the late 1800s? Leopolds Ghost Jan 2012 #139

No. I am not... BrentWil Jan 2012 #142

You are praising the elimination of extreme poverty at the expense of American workers Zalatix Jan 2012 #145

I have kind of an issue with China. SomethingFishy Jan 2012 #153

There are always problems... BrentWil Jan 2012 #172