General Discussion

BlueStreak

(8,377 posts)

59. There it is. The best we ever get is lesser of evils.

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 12:55 PM

Dec 2012

And the non-trolls here understand that perfectly well. We understand we have to tolerate some amount of that third way bullshit because it is better than the only other option available to us. But we don't have to ignore history and what the third way did to us. And we most certainly don't have to accept that as our future without a very hard fight.

Now that the general public is becoming more aware of how we have been screwed by both the Reganites and the Third-way-ers over the past 30 years, it would be most helpful for Clinton to come clean and admit that those were huge mistakes. He certainly has other aspects of his presidency that he can be proud of. But we need him to admit that NAFTA and the repeal of Glass-Steagal were huge errors that should not be repeated.

And even if Bill cannot do that, Hillary must if she wants to be our candidate in 2016.

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The Big Dog's Big Lie [View all] kentuck Dec 2012 OP

Not completely NAFTA's fault Tempest Dec 2012 #1

yeah, NAFTA kicked in the teeth datasuspect Dec 2012 #6

You mean tooth, right? Drunken Irishman Dec 2012 #57

baloney. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #139

Truth. Drunken Irishman Dec 2012 #166

Another viewpoint: kentuck Dec 2012 #170

Do you even read what you cite? grantcart Dec 2012 #184

"Nothing to do with NAFTA at all." ???? kentuck Dec 2012 #185

lol because the source you cite discusses US-China trade and NAFTA grantcart Dec 2012 #191

Thank you Grantcart. donheld Dec 2012 #210

Thanks for the facts and insight, grantcart Hekate Dec 2012 #239

production went up in terms of dollar value & flat in terms of total output. only jobs went down. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #219

You really proved my point. Drunken Irishman Dec 2012 #237

That 'manufacturing was on its way out' before nafta? no, it wasn't on its way out. That was HiPointDem Dec 2012 #238

Yes it was... Drunken Irishman Dec 2012 #240

Manufacturing jobs were declining, basically because of productivity increases. And the US HiPointDem Dec 2012 #242

It was accelerating far before NAFTA. Drunken Irishman Dec 2012 #249

No. We should have tariffs on imports. JDPriestly Dec 2012 #231

Keeping in mind, most of that decline was jobs lost due to automation bhikkhu Dec 2012 #21

Another point that is frequently overlooked MichaelSoE Dec 2012 #129

Manufacturing of what? JDPriestly Dec 2012 #235

Nixon started it with Clean Water, Clear Air, Osha & EPA. _Liann_ Dec 2012 #130

the hippie environmentalism? don't you want that other forum? HiPointDem Dec 2012 #136

Don't be skeered, HiPoint. kurtzapril4 Dec 2012 #151

Air you could barely breath. Fish dying in poluted water. dmr Dec 2012 #155

Good way to out yourself MessiahRp Dec 2012 #216

Nixon signed environmental legislation because he was a smart politician, yet a dreadful person Kennah Dec 2012 #233

I know you're too young, but look for pictures of Cleveland before the EPA. Tempest Dec 2012 #259

looking at iron & steel production, it was already declining in the carter years. all-time high HiPointDem Dec 2012 #135

It was initially damaged by going to Cold War footing under, sorry to say, Truman. nt patrice Dec 2012 #176

It was during the Reagan administration that Congress discussed loosening trading precautions. JDPriestly Dec 2012 #230

Right, let's have an honest discussion Cosmocat Dec 2012 #253

Signed repeal of Glass-Steagall, enabling taxpayer-backed Wall Street Casino Octafish Dec 2012 #2

and dissed most things LIBERAL malaise Dec 2012 #7

Some of us haven't forgotten. truebluegreen Dec 2012 #8

Democrats do for corporate America nineteen50 Dec 2012 #62

Then what is YOUR definition of an actual Democrat? George II Dec 2012 #75

You want his "definition of an actual Democrat"? At a minimum, it might be a person who is an AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #103

Is that a shot at me? George II Dec 2012 #177

A very poor one, but yes, a shot nonetheless. Democracyinkind Dec 2012 #254

Thank you very much. I addressed this in response to his second backhanded slap at me..... George II Dec 2012 #257

A REAL Democrat truebluegreen Dec 2012 #255

Politics Octafish Dec 2012 #44

So true malaise Dec 2012 #133

signed a big tax cut for the rich in his 2nd term too hfojvt Dec 2012 #16

Plutocracy works great for the Plutocrats Octafish Dec 2012 #53

I don't think you mean "rightfully"? xtraxritical Dec 2012 #69

'Rightfully,' as by design of the perpetrators. Octafish Dec 2012 #94

+1 Hissyspit Dec 2012 #232

Didn't he sign the REPEAL Of Glass/Steagall? nt LaydeeBug Dec 2012 #23

He not only signed it; he demanded it be on his desk ASAP. merrily Dec 2012 #37

ah, that's Mr. Andrea Mitchell isn't it? yuk. n/t Whisp Dec 2012 #147

Thank you, LaydeeBug! Yes, that is what he did - signed the repeal of G-S. Octafish Dec 2012 #41

Glass-Steagall and the CFMA Mnpaul Dec 2012 #196

Like a Havana Casino, wink wink. Octafish Dec 2012 #267

Yes. along with NAFTA... He was never a Good Democrat, IMO ---Strictly Third Way. whathehell Dec 2012 #126

That's what I'm angriest about. nt valerief Dec 2012 #160

OK, so what do you want to do about it? shintao Dec 2012 #3

We're already socialized. intheflow Dec 2012 #14

Not suggesting that socialism will isolate us shintao Dec 2012 #25

FDR didn't do too badly by the 98%. merrily Dec 2012 #39

If you don't count Blacks, who were initially excluded from Social Security BlueCaliDem Dec 2012 #97

"Did you ever ask yourself why Blacks registered as Republicans ..." It might have something to AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #132

Making excuses BlueCaliDem Dec 2012 #169

the republican talking points are strong here. but they're wrong. funny how people with 'one drop' HiPointDem Dec 2012 #213

And the Apologists are hard at work to excuse away inconvenient but salient points BlueCaliDem Dec 2012 #229

A professor says MLK "may have" had to register R in Alabama to vote "proves" MLK was an R? HiPointDem Dec 2012 #234

Which proves that IF MLK wanted to vote HE HAD TO BE REGISTERED AS A REPUBLICAN. BlueCaliDem Dec 2012 #244

the fact that some professor says he "may have had to" register as a republican in alabama HiPointDem Dec 2012 #246

Yeah, why read what the professor wrote in context when you can BlueCaliDem Dec 2012 #262

you're the one ignoring the context. and you're getting boring. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #266

'asian-americans' weren't put into internment camps, japanese-americans were. and not all japanese HiPointDem Dec 2012 #142

by 1940, blacks were already solidly democrat. because of fdr's policies. you need to read up. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #144

No, YOU need to read up BlueCaliDem Dec 2012 #172

Majority of Black people have voted Democrat since 1936. limpyhobbler Dec 2012 #199

Black Democratic Presidential vote 1932 = 23%. Thereafter always above 60%, pub never over 40%. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #212

FDR was ranked by historians in 2009 as "Third Greatest" president in American history, preceded. whathehell Dec 2012 #128

I kid you not, but the new Dem Leadership meme is truedelphi Dec 2012 #207

OMG....Do you have a link for this? whathehell Dec 2012 #256

i believe the auto companies & banks are already nationalized. & they'e not the only ones who've HiPointDem Dec 2012 #146

Not Nationalized Enough shintao Dec 2012 #194

But he sure do talk purdy and look great up on that podium Fumesucker Dec 2012 #4

Textiles started being outsourced way before NAFTA obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #5

Did that start happening... Oilwellian Dec 2012 #11

Thanks. AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #58

I am really tired of the Hillary-Wal-Mart canard obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #106

Why? R. Daneel Olivaw Dec 2012 #109

what's the canard? 6 years on that board. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #153

started in 1986, it looks like -- through '92. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #148

True, and they didn't go to Mexico as the naysayers thought..they went OUTSIDE N. America! George II Dec 2012 #78

No "naysayers" said that manufacturing jobs would only go to Mexico. They said it was a start. AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #134

NAFTA does not apply to China, Indonesia, Taiwan, Bangla Desh, etc. George II Dec 2012 #198

Excuse me, but so what? AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #200

NAFTA turned out to be only the first step... kentuck Dec 2012 #202

Whining about jobs going anywhere but Mexico and Canada and blaming NAFTA is crazy... George II Dec 2012 #203

I see you have the cojones to make wild-ass comments about people, but....... George II Dec 2012 #274

I don't have to use such language. Nor am I required to respond to anyone who uses such language. AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #275

I will.... George II Dec 2012 #277

they didn't? you're sure about that? because some auto manufacturing jobs sure went there. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #149

Yes, lets be honest with ourselves NNN0LHI Dec 2012 #9

If we are going to be "honest," people were concerned about job losses before NAFTA. AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #105

i seem to recall big concerns about imported cars. to the extent of japanese kids being killed HiPointDem Dec 2012 #157

I guess no one is going to mention Bush Sr.? shintao Dec 2012 #10

as someone who grew up in north east Ohio I can attest dsc Dec 2012 #12

What the fuck trumad Dec 2012 #13

You are not kidding! intheflow Dec 2012 #15

Have a hard time with the truth? kentuck Dec 2012 #17

At the risk of having ANOTHER post hidden by the DU jury.... Buzz Clik Dec 2012 #19

The DLC was, is, and always will be.... kentuck Dec 2012 #20

Again, the parallels to comments like this from the right are striking. Buzz Clik Dec 2012 #51

As I recall, the left opposed Clinton's signing of NAFTA bill? kentuck Dec 2012 #63

link? HiPointDem Dec 2012 #158

Here's a sampling of the time. kentuck Dec 2012 #159

i misread your post as 'supported' for some reason. never mind. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #164

Can you post some of those Right Wing talking points that attack the sabrina 1 Dec 2012 #90

Deciding that DLC types are too far to the right sounds nothing like the RW echo chamber. merrily Dec 2012 #31

The criticisms are identical, the motivations are identical. Buzz Clik Dec 2012 #54

The motivations are not the same. intheflow Dec 2012 #124

Exactly. AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #138

You don't want to have "ANOTHER post hidden by the DU jury"? Maybe it would help if you AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #137

Paul Krugman supported NAFTA at the time, seeing it mostly as a Foreign Policy move. KittyWampus Dec 2012 #49

OK--then why don't you list all the bad things Dems have done throughout the years? trumad Dec 2012 #82

Is that true? Where's your list? AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #140

Bring on the trolls sulphurdunn Dec 2012 #36

There it is. The best we ever get is lesser of evils. BlueStreak Dec 2012 #59

Clinton has never apologized for the Glass-Steagall repeal or for welfare reform duffyduff Dec 2012 #101

Explaining to do? shintao Dec 2012 #211

"We understand we have to tolerate some amount of that third way bullshit..." R. Daneel Olivaw Dec 2012 #111

To quote Clinton, "I feel your pain" BlueStreak Dec 2012 #123

With Bill Clinton, though, it wasn't the "lesser of two evils" duffyduff Dec 2012 #162

x2 AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #61

Well, you could always rebut the OP with more than 3 lines. R. Daneel Olivaw Dec 2012 #84

Look--- are Dems perfect? Fuck no... trumad Dec 2012 #87

So your answer is no. R. Daneel Olivaw Dec 2012 #96

Oh fucking horseshit... trumad Dec 2012 #100

Perhaps you want to reread what I wrote. R. Daneel Olivaw Dec 2012 #107

"it turned out that way" Union Scribe Dec 2012 #225

Well said. But the most that you're going to get may be a contemptuous reply with obscenities, AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #108

Perhaps, but I tried to move along the dialog R. Daneel Olivaw Dec 2012 #114

Sometimes that's all we can do. AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #116

Apparently so -- and wtf for? Hekate Dec 2012 #241

Wasn't NAFTA Al Gore's baby? Buzz Clik Dec 2012 #18

Bill Clinton signed a bill... kentuck Dec 2012 #22

it's also a fact that gore, the other democratic contender, also supported it. so if you were HiPointDem Dec 2012 #167

Regardless of who defended what, Clinton was President, not Gore. merrily Dec 2012 #29

So... is this a "buck stops here" thing or simply anti-Bill Clinton? Buzz Clik Dec 2012 #47

We'll have to demonize Paul Krugman too, because he supported NAFTA. KittyWampus Dec 2012 #50

Seriously. We no longer seem to be entitled to differences in opinion. Buzz Clik Dec 2012 #55

"differences in opinion" are not the same as "differences in policies". kentuck Dec 2012 #66

You honestly have no idea what you are talking about. And boiling an issue down to stupid level KittyWampus Dec 2012 #71

What the hell are you talking about?? kentuck Dec 2012 #76

Oh, please. Buzz Clik Dec 2012 #122

Why? How does that make any sense at all? TheKentuckian Dec 2012 #192

You do not believe that. Why the charade? Buzz Clik Dec 2012 #218

I most certainly believe that even in the same party one can be right the other wrong TheKentuckian Jan 2013 #279

That's not what I said. More games. Buzz Clik Jan 2013 #280

ROFL at "extreme left." And was Welfare Deform also OK because he was a D? bread_and_roses Dec 2012 #83

My point exactly -- criticizing Clinton (and Obama) for every move they make... Buzz Clik Dec 2012 #120

The hard left brought you woman's suffrage, unions, decent wages and a 5 day work week. R. Daneel Olivaw Dec 2012 #131

and the KKK. Give me a break! Buzz Clik Dec 2012 #217

No, I won't. Be sure to ignore everything that the left has done for you. R. Daneel Olivaw Dec 2012 #220

Quit with the dramatics. Buzz Clik Dec 2012 #222

"Where would DU be without manufactured outrage?" R. Daneel Olivaw Dec 2012 #223

Great argument. You win. Buzz Clik Dec 2012 #224

There's the dramatics again on your part. R. Daneel Olivaw Dec 2012 #228

"hard left?" what "hard left?" bread_and_roses Dec 2012 #150

If you are so righteous that you disparage the left, tell us if you dare, what issues rhett o rick Dec 2012 #197

It's a good deal, Larry... Marblehead Dec 2012 #30

Exactly. Buzz Clik Dec 2012 #45

Gore, as Senate President, also broke the tie that truedelphi Dec 2012 #208

Sorry, nope. iamthebandfanman Dec 2012 #268

Thanks! We certainly needed one more DUer complaining about Clinton. Buzz Clik Dec 2012 #276

This is exactly what I have Dalai_1 Dec 2012 #24

But another important aspect of this discussion, in my opinion... kentuck Dec 2012 #26

Reportedly, Obama has referred to himself both as a blue dog and as a New Democrat. merrily Dec 2012 #35

Repeal of Glass Steagall, too. merrily Dec 2012 #27

Didn't jobs start leaving the country in the 80s? I am against NAFTA and GATT because they do not jwirr Dec 2012 #28

Do you remember the jobs that were just across the border in Mexico?? kentuck Dec 2012 #32

Yes I do remember them - lots of pollution killing kids just across the border. Disgraceful. jwirr Dec 2012 #42

It started on a smaller scale with Nixon after he signed the DISCs legislation and went to China. AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #68

WTF? tjwash Dec 2012 #33

I may be wrong but... kentuck Dec 2012 #38

NAFTA was ceremonially signed in '92. Then was ratified by Congress, and went into force in '94. AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #56

I remember this vote very well... kentuck Dec 2012 #60

My parents were pretty angry about it, being Union Democrats. AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #67

NAFTA: December 17, 1992 George II Dec 2012 #85

Both Bush and Clinton signed NAFTA... PoliticAverse Dec 2012 #52

and clinton's congress passed it, and clinton signed it. truly a bipartisan affair. as are all the HiPointDem Dec 2012 #161

So what? He wasn't obligated to sign Poppy's bill into law TheKentuckian Dec 2012 #181

Would've happened with or without NAFTA. nt Comrade_McKenzie Dec 2012 #34

If true, why did they go to all the trouble to approve and sign NAFTA? AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #70

answered in 184 above grantcart Dec 2012 #186

Clinton also signed the bill to repeal fredamae Dec 2012 #40

It is a widely repeated myth that Bill Clinton is responsible for NAFTA pandr32 Dec 2012 #43

But it had to be ratified by Congress before signed into law. kentuck Dec 2012 #46

Absolutely right. Incidentally, the Repubs took over Congress in 1994 (after 50 years of Democratic AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #88

NAFTA was signed into law by BILL CLINTON. Deal with reality, please! Romulox Dec 2012 #48

Exactly. If he had been a "Bold Dem" fredamae Dec 2012 #65

Could that be because he signed it and he bragged about it? BlueStreak Dec 2012 #64

41 Did the deal and lost the election. There is no out for Clinton. Egalitarian Thug Dec 2012 #168

Oh phooey... Sekhmets Daughter Dec 2012 #72

Your discussion about Sam Walton's stores in 1962 and 1969 is irrelevant because his policy at that AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #110

And how long did that last? Sekhmets Daughter Dec 2012 #118

until he got exposed for buying foreign ones. 1992. was when they stopped using the slogan. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #171

Not NAFTA Mojo2 Dec 2012 #73

LIE??????? George II Dec 2012 #74

Big Lie. kentuck Dec 2012 #77

It was his OPINION on the issue - I don't call people "liars" if their opinions don't pan out. George II Dec 2012 #258

I don't understand the point of this thread. Drunken Irishman Dec 2012 #79

Yea Clinton got the Dems to the "we can be leaders too" finish line but...... nolabels Dec 2012 #99

The inevitable was only the inevitable because they bought into your false narrative... Drunken Irishman Dec 2012 #102

The idea is Clinton did a management job and was not showing leadership nolabels Dec 2012 #117

He wasn't perfect... Drunken Irishman Dec 2012 #165

... HiPointDem Dec 2012 #163

+1 toby jo Dec 2012 #174

It's relevant because we again have a Dem Union Scribe Dec 2012 #226

Not really. Drunken Irishman Dec 2012 #236

Solid rebuttal! Union Scribe Dec 2012 #245

That's what happens when the premise is weak. Drunken Irishman Dec 2012 #248

No, it's what happens when someone has no reply Union Scribe Dec 2012 #250

I remember manufacturing leaving this country long before Clinton... Cooley Hurd Dec 2012 #80

Nixon started the process in the early '70's by signing the DISC legislation and going to the AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #93

It started leaving in the 50s... Drunken Irishman Dec 2012 #175

GATT was signed in 1947 and lasted until 1994 GeorgeGist Dec 2012 #81

Bill Clinton flew back to Arkansas in the middle of the 1992 New Hampshire primary coalition_unwilling Dec 2012 #86

If a Supreme Being(s) existed and came to Earth and devised a perfect 1monster Dec 2012 #89

NAFTA SamKnause Dec 2012 #91

"Dots Connected" n/t fredamae Dec 2012 #92

Here is a neat quote to consider: truedelphi Dec 2012 #209

Don't forget Al Gore's big lie that he is an environmentalist No Compromise Dec 2012 #95

Well said. AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #112

Clinton and Gore had only environmental issues in Mexico left to them... IthinkThereforeIAM Dec 2012 #98

i don't think there was any realistic choice but to accept NAFTA samsingh Dec 2012 #104

For successful politicians lying is an art not a moral/ethical question. Tierra_y_Libertad Dec 2012 #113

I think this is "anti-vaccine logic" at work gulliver Dec 2012 #115

Ah the GOP Contract with America days,,, benld74 Dec 2012 #119

I know this one Fla_Democrat Dec 2012 #121

He and the rest of the party's leadership also worked with republicans to make Egalitarian Thug Dec 2012 #125

I beg to differ Rider3 Dec 2012 #127

Nixon was the one. Nixon signed the DISC legislation. Nixon went to the Far East, including China, AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #141

can you link me to something about disc? i can't find anything. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #173

Sure: AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #183

thanks. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #214

You're not alone in thinking that NAFTA was a mistake. DeSwiss Dec 2012 #143

Here's The Truth, and Most of You Won't Like It Yavin4 Dec 2012 #145

Did you mean to post this on 12/26/2016? ecstatic Dec 2012 #152

Timing aside, shady laws wouldn't be possible without the help of Americans ecstatic Dec 2012 #154

Clinton also signed the Telecommunications Act of 1996... wanttosavetheplanet Dec 2012 #156

He also cut more 'welfare' than Reagan leftstreet Dec 2012 #195

Right on, kentuck. Word to the wise, Hilary me not!, you all. nt patrice Dec 2012 #178

"There Is No Santa Claus and Bill Clinton Was Not an Economic Savior" malz Dec 2012 #179

It really is kind of amazing... wyldwolf Dec 2012 #180

Yeah, you all gotta hang together or... kentuck Dec 2012 #182

What's amazing is the free trade apologists Union Scribe Dec 2012 #227

i see threads like this as just looking to get a certain type to come in JI7 Dec 2012 #187

and it's the same people over and over with the same posts - worded slightly different each time wyldwolf Dec 2012 #193

Ironic. You're replying to one of those posts. nt Union Scribe Dec 2012 #252

blah, blah, blah heaven05 Dec 2012 #188

This is a disgusting thread and I'm trashing it. Zoeisright Dec 2012 #189

Inequality JReed Dec 2012 #190

It wasn't just NAFTA, it was DLC neo-Con ideology. EVERYTHING they did was for Corporate Profits, harun Dec 2012 #201

NAFTA gave the framework for what happened, but it could have worked,the idea was to export low.... marble falls Dec 2012 #204

Nafta is a republican idea.. iamthebandfanman Dec 2012 #205

it's a ruling class idea, brought into law through bipartisanship. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #215

. blkmusclmachine Dec 2012 #206

It was about this time in 2008 that I was becoming disgusted at DU for threads like this. Buzz Clik Dec 2012 #221

Agreed, Buzz Clik Hekate Dec 2012 #243

Why now. Union Scribe Dec 2012 #251

There you have it: the problem isn't NAFTA, "free trade", or even unemployment. It's the LEFT! Romulox Dec 2012 #260

Did I say that? No. Buzz Clik Dec 2012 #263

Post removed Post removed Dec 2012 #247

True. Some people are too young to remember that. And some don't realize it, Honeycombe8 Dec 2012 #261

Exactly like Robert Reich, who ALSO helped sell NAFTA, and closeupready Dec 2012 #269

No one is perfect... kentuck Dec 2012 #271

I don't recall why, but I always thought it was in part closeupready Dec 2012 #272

I had forgotten Reich was, what, Sec of Labor? Honeycombe8 Dec 2012 #273

One thing about getting older...I didn't realize people could just *pretend* the past away... Romulox Dec 2012 #278

Anyone who doesn't support free trade agreements should be slamming Obama just as much as Clinton. Nye Bevan Dec 2012 #264

Clinton was carrying the torch JReed Dec 2012 #265

Why? kentuck Dec 2012 #270