General Discussion

truebluegreen

(9,033 posts)

255. A REAL Democrat

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 09:54 AM

Dec 2012

would be pro-Labor, pro-civil rights, anti-corporatist, anti-trust, anti-globalization, pro-environment, anti-war except when necessary(i.e. very rare), pro-free public education including college, pro-universal health care, pro-science, secular (pray on your own time), pro-rule of law (none of this two-tiered BS)...

There are many specifics I'd like to see but the bottom line is that A Real Democrat would pursue policies that benefit people in general and society as a whole, without handouts to big, job-creatin' multinationals and corporations.

A Real Democrat would understand that Government is the only possible counterbalance against Big Business. I don't believe in invisible hands and magic beans, but notice I said "balance." I don't want the government to run everything, but many things that affect us all are better done by all of us.

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The Big Dog's Big Lie [View all] kentuck Dec 2012 OP

Not completely NAFTA's fault Tempest Dec 2012 #1

yeah, NAFTA kicked in the teeth datasuspect Dec 2012 #6

You mean tooth, right? Drunken Irishman Dec 2012 #57

baloney. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #139

Truth. Drunken Irishman Dec 2012 #166

Another viewpoint: kentuck Dec 2012 #170

Do you even read what you cite? grantcart Dec 2012 #184

"Nothing to do with NAFTA at all." ???? kentuck Dec 2012 #185

lol because the source you cite discusses US-China trade and NAFTA grantcart Dec 2012 #191

Thank you Grantcart. donheld Dec 2012 #210

Thanks for the facts and insight, grantcart Hekate Dec 2012 #239

production went up in terms of dollar value & flat in terms of total output. only jobs went down. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #219

You really proved my point. Drunken Irishman Dec 2012 #237

That 'manufacturing was on its way out' before nafta? no, it wasn't on its way out. That was HiPointDem Dec 2012 #238

Yes it was... Drunken Irishman Dec 2012 #240

Manufacturing jobs were declining, basically because of productivity increases. And the US HiPointDem Dec 2012 #242

It was accelerating far before NAFTA. Drunken Irishman Dec 2012 #249

No. We should have tariffs on imports. JDPriestly Dec 2012 #231

Keeping in mind, most of that decline was jobs lost due to automation bhikkhu Dec 2012 #21

Another point that is frequently overlooked MichaelSoE Dec 2012 #129

Manufacturing of what? JDPriestly Dec 2012 #235

Nixon started it with Clean Water, Clear Air, Osha & EPA. _Liann_ Dec 2012 #130

the hippie environmentalism? don't you want that other forum? HiPointDem Dec 2012 #136

Don't be skeered, HiPoint. kurtzapril4 Dec 2012 #151

Air you could barely breath. Fish dying in poluted water. dmr Dec 2012 #155

Good way to out yourself MessiahRp Dec 2012 #216

Nixon signed environmental legislation because he was a smart politician, yet a dreadful person Kennah Dec 2012 #233

I know you're too young, but look for pictures of Cleveland before the EPA. Tempest Dec 2012 #259

looking at iron & steel production, it was already declining in the carter years. all-time high HiPointDem Dec 2012 #135

It was initially damaged by going to Cold War footing under, sorry to say, Truman. nt patrice Dec 2012 #176

It was during the Reagan administration that Congress discussed loosening trading precautions. JDPriestly Dec 2012 #230

Right, let's have an honest discussion Cosmocat Dec 2012 #253

Signed repeal of Glass-Steagall, enabling taxpayer-backed Wall Street Casino Octafish Dec 2012 #2

and dissed most things LIBERAL malaise Dec 2012 #7

Some of us haven't forgotten. truebluegreen Dec 2012 #8

Democrats do for corporate America nineteen50 Dec 2012 #62

Then what is YOUR definition of an actual Democrat? George II Dec 2012 #75

You want his "definition of an actual Democrat"? At a minimum, it might be a person who is an AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #103

Is that a shot at me? George II Dec 2012 #177

A very poor one, but yes, a shot nonetheless. Democracyinkind Dec 2012 #254

Thank you very much. I addressed this in response to his second backhanded slap at me..... George II Dec 2012 #257

A REAL Democrat truebluegreen Dec 2012 #255

Politics Octafish Dec 2012 #44

So true malaise Dec 2012 #133

signed a big tax cut for the rich in his 2nd term too hfojvt Dec 2012 #16

Plutocracy works great for the Plutocrats Octafish Dec 2012 #53

I don't think you mean "rightfully"? xtraxritical Dec 2012 #69

'Rightfully,' as by design of the perpetrators. Octafish Dec 2012 #94

+1 Hissyspit Dec 2012 #232

Didn't he sign the REPEAL Of Glass/Steagall? nt LaydeeBug Dec 2012 #23

He not only signed it; he demanded it be on his desk ASAP. merrily Dec 2012 #37

ah, that's Mr. Andrea Mitchell isn't it? yuk. n/t Whisp Dec 2012 #147

Thank you, LaydeeBug! Yes, that is what he did - signed the repeal of G-S. Octafish Dec 2012 #41

Glass-Steagall and the CFMA Mnpaul Dec 2012 #196

Like a Havana Casino, wink wink. Octafish Dec 2012 #267

Yes. along with NAFTA... He was never a Good Democrat, IMO ---Strictly Third Way. whathehell Dec 2012 #126

That's what I'm angriest about. nt valerief Dec 2012 #160

OK, so what do you want to do about it? shintao Dec 2012 #3

We're already socialized. intheflow Dec 2012 #14

Not suggesting that socialism will isolate us shintao Dec 2012 #25

FDR didn't do too badly by the 98%. merrily Dec 2012 #39

If you don't count Blacks, who were initially excluded from Social Security BlueCaliDem Dec 2012 #97

"Did you ever ask yourself why Blacks registered as Republicans ..." It might have something to AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #132

Making excuses BlueCaliDem Dec 2012 #169

the republican talking points are strong here. but they're wrong. funny how people with 'one drop' HiPointDem Dec 2012 #213

And the Apologists are hard at work to excuse away inconvenient but salient points BlueCaliDem Dec 2012 #229

A professor says MLK "may have" had to register R in Alabama to vote "proves" MLK was an R? HiPointDem Dec 2012 #234

Which proves that IF MLK wanted to vote HE HAD TO BE REGISTERED AS A REPUBLICAN. BlueCaliDem Dec 2012 #244

the fact that some professor says he "may have had to" register as a republican in alabama HiPointDem Dec 2012 #246

Yeah, why read what the professor wrote in context when you can BlueCaliDem Dec 2012 #262

you're the one ignoring the context. and you're getting boring. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #266

'asian-americans' weren't put into internment camps, japanese-americans were. and not all japanese HiPointDem Dec 2012 #142

by 1940, blacks were already solidly democrat. because of fdr's policies. you need to read up. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #144

No, YOU need to read up BlueCaliDem Dec 2012 #172

Majority of Black people have voted Democrat since 1936. limpyhobbler Dec 2012 #199

Black Democratic Presidential vote 1932 = 23%. Thereafter always above 60%, pub never over 40%. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #212

FDR was ranked by historians in 2009 as "Third Greatest" president in American history, preceded. whathehell Dec 2012 #128

I kid you not, but the new Dem Leadership meme is truedelphi Dec 2012 #207

OMG....Do you have a link for this? whathehell Dec 2012 #256

i believe the auto companies & banks are already nationalized. & they'e not the only ones who've HiPointDem Dec 2012 #146

Not Nationalized Enough shintao Dec 2012 #194

But he sure do talk purdy and look great up on that podium Fumesucker Dec 2012 #4

Textiles started being outsourced way before NAFTA obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #5

Did that start happening... Oilwellian Dec 2012 #11

Thanks. AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #58

I am really tired of the Hillary-Wal-Mart canard obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #106

Why? R. Daneel Olivaw Dec 2012 #109

what's the canard? 6 years on that board. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #153

started in 1986, it looks like -- through '92. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #148

True, and they didn't go to Mexico as the naysayers thought..they went OUTSIDE N. America! George II Dec 2012 #78

No "naysayers" said that manufacturing jobs would only go to Mexico. They said it was a start. AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #134

NAFTA does not apply to China, Indonesia, Taiwan, Bangla Desh, etc. George II Dec 2012 #198

Excuse me, but so what? AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #200

NAFTA turned out to be only the first step... kentuck Dec 2012 #202

Whining about jobs going anywhere but Mexico and Canada and blaming NAFTA is crazy... George II Dec 2012 #203

I see you have the cojones to make wild-ass comments about people, but....... George II Dec 2012 #274

I don't have to use such language. Nor am I required to respond to anyone who uses such language. AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #275

I will.... George II Dec 2012 #277

they didn't? you're sure about that? because some auto manufacturing jobs sure went there. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #149

Yes, lets be honest with ourselves NNN0LHI Dec 2012 #9

If we are going to be "honest," people were concerned about job losses before NAFTA. AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #105

i seem to recall big concerns about imported cars. to the extent of japanese kids being killed HiPointDem Dec 2012 #157

I guess no one is going to mention Bush Sr.? shintao Dec 2012 #10

as someone who grew up in north east Ohio I can attest dsc Dec 2012 #12

What the fuck trumad Dec 2012 #13

You are not kidding! intheflow Dec 2012 #15

Have a hard time with the truth? kentuck Dec 2012 #17

At the risk of having ANOTHER post hidden by the DU jury.... Buzz Clik Dec 2012 #19

The DLC was, is, and always will be.... kentuck Dec 2012 #20

Again, the parallels to comments like this from the right are striking. Buzz Clik Dec 2012 #51

As I recall, the left opposed Clinton's signing of NAFTA bill? kentuck Dec 2012 #63

link? HiPointDem Dec 2012 #158

Here's a sampling of the time. kentuck Dec 2012 #159

i misread your post as 'supported' for some reason. never mind. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #164

Can you post some of those Right Wing talking points that attack the sabrina 1 Dec 2012 #90

Deciding that DLC types are too far to the right sounds nothing like the RW echo chamber. merrily Dec 2012 #31

The criticisms are identical, the motivations are identical. Buzz Clik Dec 2012 #54

The motivations are not the same. intheflow Dec 2012 #124

Exactly. AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #138

You don't want to have "ANOTHER post hidden by the DU jury"? Maybe it would help if you AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #137

Paul Krugman supported NAFTA at the time, seeing it mostly as a Foreign Policy move. KittyWampus Dec 2012 #49

OK--then why don't you list all the bad things Dems have done throughout the years? trumad Dec 2012 #82

Is that true? Where's your list? AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #140

Bring on the trolls sulphurdunn Dec 2012 #36

There it is. The best we ever get is lesser of evils. BlueStreak Dec 2012 #59

Clinton has never apologized for the Glass-Steagall repeal or for welfare reform duffyduff Dec 2012 #101

Explaining to do? shintao Dec 2012 #211

"We understand we have to tolerate some amount of that third way bullshit..." R. Daneel Olivaw Dec 2012 #111

To quote Clinton, "I feel your pain" BlueStreak Dec 2012 #123

With Bill Clinton, though, it wasn't the "lesser of two evils" duffyduff Dec 2012 #162

x2 AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #61

Well, you could always rebut the OP with more than 3 lines. R. Daneel Olivaw Dec 2012 #84

Look--- are Dems perfect? Fuck no... trumad Dec 2012 #87

So your answer is no. R. Daneel Olivaw Dec 2012 #96

Oh fucking horseshit... trumad Dec 2012 #100

Perhaps you want to reread what I wrote. R. Daneel Olivaw Dec 2012 #107

"it turned out that way" Union Scribe Dec 2012 #225

Well said. But the most that you're going to get may be a contemptuous reply with obscenities, AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #108

Perhaps, but I tried to move along the dialog R. Daneel Olivaw Dec 2012 #114

Sometimes that's all we can do. AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #116

Apparently so -- and wtf for? Hekate Dec 2012 #241

Wasn't NAFTA Al Gore's baby? Buzz Clik Dec 2012 #18

Bill Clinton signed a bill... kentuck Dec 2012 #22

it's also a fact that gore, the other democratic contender, also supported it. so if you were HiPointDem Dec 2012 #167

Regardless of who defended what, Clinton was President, not Gore. merrily Dec 2012 #29

So... is this a "buck stops here" thing or simply anti-Bill Clinton? Buzz Clik Dec 2012 #47

We'll have to demonize Paul Krugman too, because he supported NAFTA. KittyWampus Dec 2012 #50

Seriously. We no longer seem to be entitled to differences in opinion. Buzz Clik Dec 2012 #55

"differences in opinion" are not the same as "differences in policies". kentuck Dec 2012 #66

You honestly have no idea what you are talking about. And boiling an issue down to stupid level KittyWampus Dec 2012 #71

What the hell are you talking about?? kentuck Dec 2012 #76

Oh, please. Buzz Clik Dec 2012 #122

Why? How does that make any sense at all? TheKentuckian Dec 2012 #192

You do not believe that. Why the charade? Buzz Clik Dec 2012 #218

I most certainly believe that even in the same party one can be right the other wrong TheKentuckian Jan 2013 #279

That's not what I said. More games. Buzz Clik Jan 2013 #280

ROFL at "extreme left." And was Welfare Deform also OK because he was a D? bread_and_roses Dec 2012 #83

My point exactly -- criticizing Clinton (and Obama) for every move they make... Buzz Clik Dec 2012 #120

The hard left brought you woman's suffrage, unions, decent wages and a 5 day work week. R. Daneel Olivaw Dec 2012 #131

and the KKK. Give me a break! Buzz Clik Dec 2012 #217

No, I won't. Be sure to ignore everything that the left has done for you. R. Daneel Olivaw Dec 2012 #220

Quit with the dramatics. Buzz Clik Dec 2012 #222

"Where would DU be without manufactured outrage?" R. Daneel Olivaw Dec 2012 #223

Great argument. You win. Buzz Clik Dec 2012 #224

There's the dramatics again on your part. R. Daneel Olivaw Dec 2012 #228

"hard left?" what "hard left?" bread_and_roses Dec 2012 #150

If you are so righteous that you disparage the left, tell us if you dare, what issues rhett o rick Dec 2012 #197

It's a good deal, Larry... Marblehead Dec 2012 #30

Exactly. Buzz Clik Dec 2012 #45

Gore, as Senate President, also broke the tie that truedelphi Dec 2012 #208

Sorry, nope. iamthebandfanman Dec 2012 #268

Thanks! We certainly needed one more DUer complaining about Clinton. Buzz Clik Dec 2012 #276

This is exactly what I have Dalai_1 Dec 2012 #24

But another important aspect of this discussion, in my opinion... kentuck Dec 2012 #26

Reportedly, Obama has referred to himself both as a blue dog and as a New Democrat. merrily Dec 2012 #35

Repeal of Glass Steagall, too. merrily Dec 2012 #27

Didn't jobs start leaving the country in the 80s? I am against NAFTA and GATT because they do not jwirr Dec 2012 #28

Do you remember the jobs that were just across the border in Mexico?? kentuck Dec 2012 #32

Yes I do remember them - lots of pollution killing kids just across the border. Disgraceful. jwirr Dec 2012 #42

It started on a smaller scale with Nixon after he signed the DISCs legislation and went to China. AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #68

WTF? tjwash Dec 2012 #33

I may be wrong but... kentuck Dec 2012 #38

NAFTA was ceremonially signed in '92. Then was ratified by Congress, and went into force in '94. AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #56

I remember this vote very well... kentuck Dec 2012 #60

My parents were pretty angry about it, being Union Democrats. AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #67

NAFTA: December 17, 1992 George II Dec 2012 #85

Both Bush and Clinton signed NAFTA... PoliticAverse Dec 2012 #52

and clinton's congress passed it, and clinton signed it. truly a bipartisan affair. as are all the HiPointDem Dec 2012 #161

So what? He wasn't obligated to sign Poppy's bill into law TheKentuckian Dec 2012 #181

Would've happened with or without NAFTA. nt Comrade_McKenzie Dec 2012 #34

If true, why did they go to all the trouble to approve and sign NAFTA? AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #70

answered in 184 above grantcart Dec 2012 #186

Clinton also signed the bill to repeal fredamae Dec 2012 #40

It is a widely repeated myth that Bill Clinton is responsible for NAFTA pandr32 Dec 2012 #43

But it had to be ratified by Congress before signed into law. kentuck Dec 2012 #46

Absolutely right. Incidentally, the Repubs took over Congress in 1994 (after 50 years of Democratic AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #88

NAFTA was signed into law by BILL CLINTON. Deal with reality, please! Romulox Dec 2012 #48

Exactly. If he had been a "Bold Dem" fredamae Dec 2012 #65

Could that be because he signed it and he bragged about it? BlueStreak Dec 2012 #64

41 Did the deal and lost the election. There is no out for Clinton. Egalitarian Thug Dec 2012 #168

Oh phooey... Sekhmets Daughter Dec 2012 #72

Your discussion about Sam Walton's stores in 1962 and 1969 is irrelevant because his policy at that AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #110

And how long did that last? Sekhmets Daughter Dec 2012 #118

until he got exposed for buying foreign ones. 1992. was when they stopped using the slogan. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #171

Not NAFTA Mojo2 Dec 2012 #73

LIE??????? George II Dec 2012 #74

Big Lie. kentuck Dec 2012 #77

It was his OPINION on the issue - I don't call people "liars" if their opinions don't pan out. George II Dec 2012 #258

I don't understand the point of this thread. Drunken Irishman Dec 2012 #79

Yea Clinton got the Dems to the "we can be leaders too" finish line but...... nolabels Dec 2012 #99

The inevitable was only the inevitable because they bought into your false narrative... Drunken Irishman Dec 2012 #102

The idea is Clinton did a management job and was not showing leadership nolabels Dec 2012 #117

He wasn't perfect... Drunken Irishman Dec 2012 #165

... HiPointDem Dec 2012 #163

+1 toby jo Dec 2012 #174

It's relevant because we again have a Dem Union Scribe Dec 2012 #226

Not really. Drunken Irishman Dec 2012 #236

Solid rebuttal! Union Scribe Dec 2012 #245

That's what happens when the premise is weak. Drunken Irishman Dec 2012 #248

No, it's what happens when someone has no reply Union Scribe Dec 2012 #250

I remember manufacturing leaving this country long before Clinton... Cooley Hurd Dec 2012 #80

Nixon started the process in the early '70's by signing the DISC legislation and going to the AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #93

It started leaving in the 50s... Drunken Irishman Dec 2012 #175

GATT was signed in 1947 and lasted until 1994 GeorgeGist Dec 2012 #81

Bill Clinton flew back to Arkansas in the middle of the 1992 New Hampshire primary coalition_unwilling Dec 2012 #86

If a Supreme Being(s) existed and came to Earth and devised a perfect 1monster Dec 2012 #89

NAFTA SamKnause Dec 2012 #91

"Dots Connected" n/t fredamae Dec 2012 #92

Here is a neat quote to consider: truedelphi Dec 2012 #209

Don't forget Al Gore's big lie that he is an environmentalist No Compromise Dec 2012 #95

Well said. AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #112

Clinton and Gore had only environmental issues in Mexico left to them... IthinkThereforeIAM Dec 2012 #98

i don't think there was any realistic choice but to accept NAFTA samsingh Dec 2012 #104

For successful politicians lying is an art not a moral/ethical question. Tierra_y_Libertad Dec 2012 #113

I think this is "anti-vaccine logic" at work gulliver Dec 2012 #115

Ah the GOP Contract with America days,,, benld74 Dec 2012 #119

I know this one Fla_Democrat Dec 2012 #121

He and the rest of the party's leadership also worked with republicans to make Egalitarian Thug Dec 2012 #125

I beg to differ Rider3 Dec 2012 #127

Nixon was the one. Nixon signed the DISC legislation. Nixon went to the Far East, including China, AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #141

can you link me to something about disc? i can't find anything. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #173

Sure: AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #183

thanks. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #214

You're not alone in thinking that NAFTA was a mistake. DeSwiss Dec 2012 #143

Here's The Truth, and Most of You Won't Like It Yavin4 Dec 2012 #145

Did you mean to post this on 12/26/2016? ecstatic Dec 2012 #152

Timing aside, shady laws wouldn't be possible without the help of Americans ecstatic Dec 2012 #154

Clinton also signed the Telecommunications Act of 1996... wanttosavetheplanet Dec 2012 #156

He also cut more 'welfare' than Reagan leftstreet Dec 2012 #195

Right on, kentuck. Word to the wise, Hilary me not!, you all. nt patrice Dec 2012 #178

"There Is No Santa Claus and Bill Clinton Was Not an Economic Savior" malz Dec 2012 #179

It really is kind of amazing... wyldwolf Dec 2012 #180

Yeah, you all gotta hang together or... kentuck Dec 2012 #182

What's amazing is the free trade apologists Union Scribe Dec 2012 #227

i see threads like this as just looking to get a certain type to come in JI7 Dec 2012 #187

and it's the same people over and over with the same posts - worded slightly different each time wyldwolf Dec 2012 #193

Ironic. You're replying to one of those posts. nt Union Scribe Dec 2012 #252

blah, blah, blah heaven05 Dec 2012 #188

This is a disgusting thread and I'm trashing it. Zoeisright Dec 2012 #189

Inequality JReed Dec 2012 #190

It wasn't just NAFTA, it was DLC neo-Con ideology. EVERYTHING they did was for Corporate Profits, harun Dec 2012 #201

NAFTA gave the framework for what happened, but it could have worked,the idea was to export low.... marble falls Dec 2012 #204

Nafta is a republican idea.. iamthebandfanman Dec 2012 #205

it's a ruling class idea, brought into law through bipartisanship. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #215

. blkmusclmachine Dec 2012 #206

It was about this time in 2008 that I was becoming disgusted at DU for threads like this. Buzz Clik Dec 2012 #221

Agreed, Buzz Clik Hekate Dec 2012 #243

Why now. Union Scribe Dec 2012 #251

There you have it: the problem isn't NAFTA, "free trade", or even unemployment. It's the LEFT! Romulox Dec 2012 #260

Did I say that? No. Buzz Clik Dec 2012 #263

Post removed Post removed Dec 2012 #247

True. Some people are too young to remember that. And some don't realize it, Honeycombe8 Dec 2012 #261

Exactly like Robert Reich, who ALSO helped sell NAFTA, and closeupready Dec 2012 #269

No one is perfect... kentuck Dec 2012 #271

I don't recall why, but I always thought it was in part closeupready Dec 2012 #272

I had forgotten Reich was, what, Sec of Labor? Honeycombe8 Dec 2012 #273

One thing about getting older...I didn't realize people could just *pretend* the past away... Romulox Dec 2012 #278

Anyone who doesn't support free trade agreements should be slamming Obama just as much as Clinton. Nye Bevan Dec 2012 #264

Clinton was carrying the torch JReed Dec 2012 #265

Why? kentuck Dec 2012 #270