General Discussion

DanTex

(20,709 posts)

70. I've had many discussions with pro-gunners, and they basically do not believe in science.

Reply to Pretzel_Warrior (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 11:26 AM

Dec 2012

As you point out, there have been many studies linking gun ownership to increased rates of homicide and suicide, but trying to explain this to a pro-gun person is like trying to convince Glenn Beck that carbon emissions truly are causing temperatures to rise. They are full of conspiracy theories, and they will repeat talking points from gun blogs that claim to "refute" the peer-reviewed science.

The implication is clear: there really is no intellectually honest way to defend the current gun laws in the US. If there were, the "pro-gun progressives" on DU would be doing it. But you don't actually see that here. The pro-gunners are pretty much making the same arguments you'd read on FreeRepublic: that gun control is just a precursor to government tyranny, that the studies simply represent "anti-gun bias", that a gun is just a tool, etc.

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I'm still trying to wrap my head around so many staunchly pro-gun folks on DU [View all] Pretzel_Warrior Dec 2012 OP

They are a small, small minority. They're just louder. onehandle Dec 2012 #1

I hope so. Pretzel_Warrior Dec 2012 #2

and incredibly stubborn. obtuse even. MjolnirTime Dec 2012 #26

40 percent of Democrats are armed Mojorabbit Dec 2012 #220

False bongbong Dec 2012 #253

You will notice that in a household with the Dems interviewed Mojorabbit Jan 2013 #257

Take your NRA Talking Points somewhere else, maybe Freeperland bongbong Jan 2013 #259

I suggest you read it again Mojorabbit Jan 2013 #260

LOL bongbong Jan 2013 #261

Look again. 40 percent of dems interviewed had a weapon in the house. nt Mojorabbit Jan 2013 #262

LOL bongbong Jan 2013 #264

I am repeating what my posting of the graph said Mojorabbit Jan 2013 #266

Very few people here have said NOTHING should be done NickB79 Dec 2012 #3

I have no problem with your stance on the matter as you describe it Pretzel_Warrior Dec 2012 #4

I can understand that NickB79 Dec 2012 #12

You've touched on one of the reasons why people like me are so stubborn on the gun issue derby378 Dec 2012 #167

While Minnesota is solidly blue, Jenoch Dec 2012 #188

Exactly - this is going to be a national problem that hounds Democrats for years to come derby378 Dec 2012 #229

I Am Pro 2nd Amendment Repeal Because I Am Tired Of Living In A Concealed Carry World Where I cantbeserious Dec 2012 #35

Yes! the_wozneer Dec 2012 #87

Another incredibly callous remark, thucythucy Dec 2012 #98

Yes, I Am A Simpleton - Guns Kill And I Don't Want To Die At The Hands Of A Gun Owner cantbeserious Dec 2012 #126

Agreed: snark and insult do nothing to help resolve this issue. Lizzie Poppet Dec 2012 #138

Well Wozneer - Not Everything In This World Is Designed To Kill As Its Primary Purpose cantbeserious Dec 2012 #222

Exactly how many concealed carry holders have gone "postal" in the past year? forthemiddle Dec 2012 #154

Matters Not To Me; I Lived In Fear Of One Concealed Carry Holder For 18 Months cantbeserious Dec 2012 #170

So you blame all 10 million of us because of the actions of one? N/T GreenStormCloud Dec 2012 #184

Yes - You Are Part Of What Makes The Gun Culture Thrive And You Become Equally Responsible Each Time cantbeserious Dec 2012 #221

What are your views on the alcohol culture? hack89 Dec 2012 #224

False Equivalency - Nice Try Using The NRA Talking Point cantbeserious Dec 2012 #230

So people don't use alcohol in an irresponsible manner hack89 Dec 2012 #231

That's Why We Have DUI Laws - Nice Try On The Misdirection cantbeserious Dec 2012 #234

So we should pass laws against shooting other people? hack89 Dec 2012 #236

No - We Should Pass Laws Outlawing Firearms cantbeserious Dec 2012 #241

But not laws outlawing alcohol? hack89 Dec 2012 #247

Without too many specifics, Jenoch Dec 2012 #233

Can't Provide Too Many Details - Legal Reasons - Disgruntled Employee cantbeserious Dec 2012 #235

I shed no tears for you. You have the NRA and PLENTY of support from people with money and power. PeaceNikki Dec 2012 #5

You need to think beyond picking either extreme NickB79 Dec 2012 #9

non-gun owner here... lexw Dec 2012 #28

If you talk to our gungeoneers you quickly realize that there is no Warren Stupidity Dec 2012 #141

How exactly do you intend to take Jenoch Dec 2012 #190

1) stop selling new ones. Warren Stupidity Dec 2012 #191

Wow. rrneck Dec 2012 #194

What is wrong with that plan? Pretzel_Warrior Dec 2012 #201

Oh, it's a great plan. It just won't work. rrneck Dec 2012 #203

The law can shut them down from selling certain kinds of guns and this is Pretzel_Warrior Dec 2012 #208

When you get that law passed get back to me. rrneck Dec 2012 #211

Notice the tack from wont work to wont get passed. Warren Stupidity Dec 2012 #226

Notice the literalism in the service of facile ideology. rrneck Dec 2012 #232

Obviously legislation would work. I'll accept that. Warren Stupidity Dec 2012 #237

First, you have to get the legislation passed into law. rrneck Dec 2012 #238

I Am Tired Of Living In Fear Of Gun Owners And Gun Enablers - Repeal The 2nd Amendment cantbeserious Dec 2012 #171

It only takes 13 states to block a constitutional amendment. GreenStormCloud Dec 2012 #185

There Is A Real World Solution - Repeal The 2nd Amendment - See This DU Thread For The Horror Of SH cantbeserious Dec 2012 #245

Repealing 2A is not going to happen. GreenStormCloud Dec 2012 #246

How many disgruntled former employees Jenoch Dec 2012 #243

The One With The Concealed Carry Permit - During The 18 Months The Threats Were Subtle But Real cantbeserious Dec 2012 #244

Most are Republican trolls. UnrepentantLiberal Dec 2012 #6

so the majority oddoneout Dec 2012 #40

I didn't say DU gun owners. UnrepentantLiberal Dec 2012 #41

i own a few oddoneout Dec 2012 #42

. UnrepentantLiberal Dec 2012 #44

OK oddoneout Dec 2012 #45

Snap. Robb Dec 2012 #50

Lol. Pretzel_Warrior Dec 2012 #62

What's up with the sudden influx of newbie gun defenders? AgingAmerican Dec 2012 #65

Some are returning banned trolls. UnrepentantLiberal Dec 2012 #68

The breeding stock billh58 Dec 2012 #84

are you sure barbtries Dec 2012 #102

Anything is possible. UnrepentantLiberal Dec 2012 #110

i dunno. barbtries Dec 2012 #111

This is true. UnrepentantLiberal Dec 2012 #113

They make a whopping $.05 per post AgingAmerican Dec 2012 #183

I seriously doubt that DU pays people to post here. GreenStormCloud Dec 2012 #186

Of course not AgingAmerican Dec 2012 #217

That's pretty interesting rl6214 Dec 2012 #198

What sites like that do AgingAmerican Dec 2012 #218

They are being recruited by billh58 Dec 2012 #77

Yeah, it's pretty obvious AgingAmerican Dec 2012 #182

If you argue against any billh58 Dec 2012 #76

Let me ask you an honest question. shadowrider Dec 2012 #165

I have NEVER been a member or supporter Jenoch Dec 2012 #193

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA DainBramaged Dec 2012 #252

This thread seems to attract them Pretzel_Warrior Jan 2013 #272

money farminator3000 Dec 2012 #7

+1 nt Whovian Dec 2012 #8

Trolling for dollars - a rather popular program in places like DU! Bozita Dec 2012 #23

its really kind of awful! farminator3000 Dec 2012 #31

To disrupt the board lolly Dec 2012 #134

And the NRA/Gungeon dwellers billh58 Dec 2012 #157

organized resistance!! farminator3000 Dec 2012 #164

you nailed it! farminator3000 Dec 2012 #161

I'm done supporting any changes former-republican Dec 2012 #10

Any changes in what? AgingAmerican Dec 2012 #66

Do not fall into the "no true Scotsman" fallacy as other here have ProgressiveProfessor Dec 2012 #11

the studies are far, far more obvious than you seem to want to admit Pretzel_Warrior Dec 2012 #13

There are several key data points the studies cannot cover ProgressiveProfessor Dec 2012 #15

especially with SYG laws, "self defense" claims have doubled in some states. bettyellen Dec 2012 #124

Can we see some actual cites to your claims, please? n/t PavePusher Dec 2012 #248

Deaths Nearly Triple Since �Stand Your Ground� Enacted (in Florida) bettyellen Dec 2012 #249

And the NRA bots march on bongbong Dec 2012 #254

Meaningless stat unless you can show that individual cases were decided incorrectly. PavePusher Jan 2013 #268

I agree - no one likes crime/violence Yo_Mama Dec 2012 #75

I actually have a reason why, it is my own opinion though (and I, to some, pro-gun) The Straight Story Dec 2012 #14

Bravo Fla_Democrat Dec 2012 #54

Well said (n/t) derby378 Dec 2012 #168

Hi fellow human being... Toronto Jan 2013 #256

Thank you so much. NT Eleanors38 Jan 2013 #265

The problem that millions of Americans are trying to solve rrneck Dec 2012 #16

Reminds me a bit of the east side here The Straight Story Dec 2012 #17

Restricting choice does work. There is no smoking in bars around here. Or restaurants. Or places of kwassa Dec 2012 #139

You've only been on DU for a mere COUPLE OF WEEKS, of course you don't understand. Festivito Dec 2012 #18

I support the Democratic Party Platform. If you oppose the Second Amendment you don't. nt jody Dec 2012 #19

So you support an assault weapon ban? Warren Stupidity Dec 2012 #58

I support the Platform, do you support the Second Amendment? nt jody Dec 2012 #72

I support the platform. I do not support the current interpretation of the 2a by Warren Stupidity Dec 2012 #91

I support our Platform. You admit supporting PART of our Platform. In Heller, both opinion & dissent jody Dec 2012 #100

You continue to not answer the question. Warren Stupidity Dec 2012 #120

Answered but not read or comprehended. That's your personal problem. nt jody Dec 2012 #121

There is no direct support explicitly for the awb in anything you have written. Warren Stupidity Dec 2012 #122

See #100 nt jody Dec 2012 #133

You are unable to answer the question directly. Post 100 is a non answer. Warren Stupidity Dec 2012 #140

I support the Constitution, which trumps any party's platform derby378 Dec 2012 #169

Oh tag teaming, cool. Warren Stupidity Dec 2012 #174

"Tag-teaming?" Try "reality check" instead derby378 Dec 2012 #175

So, it appears you are against an assault weapons ban.Why are you afraid to clearly state this? bettyellen Dec 2012 #128

He'd fail his own purity test, so now it is a matter of honor. Warren Stupidity Dec 2012 #145

an absurd statement. barbtries Dec 2012 #104

barbtries see #100 nt jody Dec 2012 #107

I don't support the 2nd Amendment as it's been interpreted DisgustipatedinCA Dec 2012 #178

yup, just look at this JI7 Dec 2012 #20

I'm a democrat have been raised around democrats and guns my whole life. What's your point? nt jal777 Dec 2012 #21

It's when they adopt Republican talking points and Wayne La Pierre talking points AgingAmerican Dec 2012 #22

I'm not up to date with their talking points. But.... jal777 Dec 2012 #27

Who has called you a murderer for target shooting? Pretzel_Warrior Dec 2012 #29

Several posters are saying that the... jal777 Dec 2012 #30

By semi auto do your mean assault rifle? AgingAmerican Dec 2012 #32

here you go... jal777 Dec 2012 #33

Could not agree JohnnyBoots Dec 2012 #38

Then I agree with you AgingAmerican Dec 2012 #53

All "by the book" billh58 Dec 2012 #82

"NRA talking points", again? Why not toss in "Gruss Gott" or "Inshallah" while you're at it? friendly_iconoclast Dec 2012 #199

Agree the_wozneer Dec 2012 #88

Assault rifles are tightly regulated under the National Firearms Act of 1934. nt jody Dec 2012 #118

Assault Rifles are full-auto. There are few & highly regulated. Eleanors38 Jan 2013 #267

Then why do you billh58 Dec 2012 #81

The U.S. doesn't have a Dept. of Needs. GreenStormCloud Dec 2012 #187

One has often said "all gun owners have blood on their hands" ProgressiveProfessor Dec 2012 #101

and a few have claimed they would shoot LEO officers if they tried to take their weapons... bettyellen Dec 2012 #132

What's yours? eom billh58 Dec 2012 #78

I like guns because it scares Righty Captain Boomerang Dec 2012 #24

If you wish to buy an Jenoch Dec 2012 #195

I'm still trying to wrap my head around so many staunchly pro-gun folks on DU The CCC Dec 2012 #25

If there is a sane rationale for allowing private ownership of assault weapons I've yet to hear it dschmott Dec 2012 #34

The OP isn't restricting his post to assault weapons. He's talking about ALL guns, owned by anyone, Honeycombe8 Dec 2012 #63

Because I believe hand guns should be restricted Pretzel_Warrior Dec 2012 #73

Over 810,000 LEO choose handguns for self-defense. Why shouldn't law-abiding citizens? nt jody Dec 2012 #119

By LEO you mean law enforcement officers? They use them in their job to fight crime Pretzel_Warrior Dec 2012 #204

You are certainly welcome to your opinions Flyboy_451 Jan 2013 #255

If so many people that you otherwise respect disagree with you... Demo_Chris Dec 2012 #36

40% of Democratic voters..live in a household that has a gun.. Upton Dec 2012 #37

That's the $64 question. The NRA wants to steer gun owners to the GOP. eallen Dec 2012 #60

"Some Democrats seem eager to help them." Respectfully, I think that it is some alleged Democrats. AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #210

I can't wrap my head around so many pro-violence game Democrats. But Safetykitten Dec 2012 #39

I love it when.. sendero Dec 2012 #43

Post removed Post removed Dec 2012 #47

Well thanks for posting it.. sendero Dec 2012 #49

What. The. FUCK! Pretzel_Warrior Dec 2012 #67

Exactly. lolly Dec 2012 #137

There are many millions of armed liberal Democrats... Eleanors38 Jan 2013 #269

I think you're in the wrong place. WilliamPitt Dec 2012 #71

The wrong place he might call 'home,' Call Me Wesley Dec 2012 #135

The NRA position on guns is explicity anti-science lolly Dec 2012 #136

It is the new normal Resonance_Chamber Dec 2012 #46

I think part of it is a divide between urban and rural folks. Zorra Dec 2012 #48

Has gun ownership always been a Dem litmus test? Puzzledtraveller Dec 2012 #51

Ownership? No. RKBA absolutism is a rightwing political position. Warren Stupidity Dec 2012 #59

If we allow you to define the term, perhaps. beevul Dec 2012 #214

Absent an appalling massacre event, the gungeoneers haven't met a serious Warren Stupidity Dec 2012 #225

It is one of many litmus tests..... whistler162 Dec 2012 #92

Thanks. AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #212

See #269 for the "history" of gun control in the Party. Eleanors38 Jan 2013 #270

Hell, I'm a gun owner and these gun nuts drive me crazy. Odin2005 Dec 2012 #52

My guess is less than 14% of our members. Warren Stupidity Dec 2012 #55

The Gun Nut forum has been here a long time liberal N proud Dec 2012 #56

Yup. Deal breaker. MichiganVote Dec 2012 #206

There was a decision made by the PTB to welcome them. Now DU is GU (Guns Underground) leveymg Dec 2012 #57

I haven't seen any posts by gun owners who are against any type of controls...Names, please. Honeycombe8 Dec 2012 #61

Much of it is very well organized Astroturf. ALEC has lot of money! MightyMopar Dec 2012 #64

It's the adoption of NRA crackpot gun positions that gets me AgingAmerican Dec 2012 #69

+1! uponit7771 Dec 2012 #79

Holy shit! neverforget Dec 2012 #192

I've had many discussions with pro-gunners, and they basically do not believe in science. DanTex Dec 2012 #70

Following the_wozneer Dec 2012 #89

And yet another NRA billh58 Dec 2012 #94

The Wozzer has left the building. GoneOffShore Dec 2012 #115

I have a feeling that its billh58 Dec 2012 #117

Recruited or revived? GoneOffShore Dec 2012 #127

This post is a great example of what I was talking about. DanTex Dec 2012 #97

Very few on this thread acknowledge the real gun problem in this country. RC Dec 2012 #74

"The United States has the world's highest gun death rate." EX500rider Dec 2012 #142

You really think that we billh58 Dec 2012 #150

I see... EX500rider Dec 2012 #159

I realize that it's hard for you billh58 Dec 2012 #160

Gotta ya.. EX500rider Dec 2012 #162

And being number 14 billh58 Dec 2012 #166

We have found in the past that some of them are right wingers Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2012 #80

I don't even own a gun....... musical_soul Dec 2012 #83

We dont like your kind here the_wozneer Dec 2012 #90

Are things really that dull over billh58 Dec 2012 #95

Just ignore this PPRd wozneer troll. He speaks for nobody. nt Electric Monk Dec 2012 #109

Pepperoni or Mushroom? sellitman Dec 2012 #130

Huh? the_wozneer Dec 2012 #85

Does mommy know billh58 Dec 2012 #96

Because they love their guns more than they value your life Rex Dec 2012 #86

Not that complicated. Maybe you're just not interested closeupready Dec 2012 #93

No. I have no problem having dialogue; however Pretzel_Warrior Dec 2012 #103

If you say you want dialogue, I believe you. closeupready Dec 2012 #129

Hopefully we proceed in the weeks ahead with more level headed discussion Pretzel_Warrior Dec 2012 #216

Trade-offs have to be balanced Shrek Dec 2012 #99

Being skeptical of gun control isn't the same as being "pro-gun" Recursion Dec 2012 #105

Good post Chico Man Dec 2012 #197

NRA propaganda works on fear and ignorance Skittles Dec 2012 #106

there are only about 10-15 different pro-gun or pro-NRA fans on the gun section.They are loud graham4anything Dec 2012 #108

I agree the antigun Dec 2012 #112

Welcome to DU! Recursion Dec 2012 #114

This all sounds strangely familiar... billh58 Dec 2012 #116

"No one is calling for a total "ban" on all guns, or a repeal of the 2nd Amendment" EX500rider Dec 2012 #143

As has been pointed out repeatedly, billh58 Dec 2012 #146

So you didn't really mean "no one" n/t EX500rider Dec 2012 #147

Yes, I did mean billh58 Dec 2012 #148

"no one" & "no one of consequence" not the same thing.. EX500rider Dec 2012 #149

Yeah, right Bubba. billh58 Dec 2012 #151

Snort....lol... EX500rider Dec 2012 #153

I couldn't resist... billh58 Dec 2012 #163

Too funny. AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #213

Some of us live in the country DollarBillHines Dec 2012 #123

Which means you're not who I was talking about. Pretzel_Warrior Dec 2012 #125

I'm amused by the ones screaming about how they're 'vilified', 'everybody's being MEAN to them'... PeaceNikki Dec 2012 #131

+100 Taverner Dec 2012 #155

Because we Liberals... PoliticalBiker Dec 2012 #144

Im not 'pro-gun' MFM008 Dec 2012 #152

Bazookas are completely legal. GreenStormCloud Dec 2012 #189

When you have been around here for a while you will find many doc03 Dec 2012 #156

And it's comical how they billh58 Dec 2012 #158

The number of posters who say "nothing" (your words) should be done is vanishingly small. KittyWampus Dec 2012 #172

You can show me all the scientific studies you want customerserviceguy Dec 2012 #173

the 'what about the cars argument' is one of the dumbest made by the death mongers. bowens43 Dec 2012 #177

I'm talking about customerserviceguy Dec 2012 #180

I think it may be a form of mental illness.... bowens43 Dec 2012 #176

I don't own a gun Chico Man Dec 2012 #207

I am from a solidly blue state (Minnesota) Jenoch Dec 2012 #179

Because the NRA has little ro"bots" that go around the internet and tell applegrove Dec 2012 #181

Yep, that's whats happening! MightyMopar Dec 2012 #228

I'm not actually staunchly pro-gun Chico Man Dec 2012 #196

The question is.....what form of gun control over and above our current laws Pretzel_Warrior Dec 2012 #200

That is a very complicated question Chico Man Dec 2012 #202

Contrarians who happen to own guns..and who love talking about them more than almost anything else SoCalDem Dec 2012 #205

So many members rejecting the DU line Chico Man Dec 2012 #209

We don't know for sure because the US is Pretzel_Warrior Dec 2012 #239

Gun cos. Are not a very big sector in this economy Eleanors38 Jan 2013 #271

I think it's two-fold... OneTenthofOnePercent Dec 2012 #215

Yay! I had a post tweeted by a conservadork! Pretzel_Warrior Dec 2012 #219

i don't think most of them are progressives/liberals or even Democrats JI7 Dec 2012 #223

NRA employees gotta do what NRA employees gotta do. nt valerief Dec 2012 #227

Amazing what comes out from under the bridge (or inside the Cave)... backscatter712 Dec 2012 #240

Lol. Yikes! Gross. Arrgghh. Pretzel_Warrior Dec 2012 #242

One DUer really surprised me. That poster is a way our Progressive member. bluestate10 Dec 2012 #250

they are skeered Skittles Dec 2012 #251

I guess it's a MUCH bigger tent than you thought it was, huh? cherokeeprogressive Jan 2013 #258

YAwn n/t L0oniX Jan 2013 #263