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WilmywoodNCparalegal

(2,654 posts)

233. Were it not for Paxil, I'm not sure I'd be here

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 03:25 PM

Dec 2012

After the hysterectomy, I had to deal with a side effect that is well known to other women of childbearing age who have hysterectomies, but not well publicized by ob/gyns: depression.

It hit me severely. Among the many manifestations, I'd cry for days about losing my childbearing abilities and I'd have some suicidal ideations at times (which never came to fruition). I'd avoid colleagues for fear talk would be about babies and children. I asked the ob/gyn for help and she prescribed Paxil. I am not a pill popper by any means. But Paxil did save me. After a few weeks (the time it takes for the medication to have an effect), I began crying a lot less and thinking about 'babies' a lot less as well.

I discontinued the medication after a year and a half on it, because I felt like I didn't need it any longer. This was in 2010. Then, a bout of the baby blues came back a few months ago. This time, I went to a psychiatrist. After some questions, he ordered a battery of tests.

I was then diagnosed as ADHD. Sometimes, depression is a co-morbid condition of ADHD, especially untreated adult ADHD. He prescribed Ritalin, which is basically speed.

I am now a new person on many different levels. I am learning to cope with the baby blues - which may not ever go away. I don't shun my coworkers and even my upbeat nature and caustic sense of humor have returned.

Antidepressants may or may not be for everyone - I'm not a psychiatrist. But they did help me. Medications like Ritalin are certainly not for everyone, but they have surely made a difference in my life

If it were not for medications like Paxil or Ritalin, I'm not so sure I could have handled these past couple of years. I'm sure there are plenty of irresponsible doctors out there who prescribe antidepressants or stimulants like candy, but for those who actually need some help, they are invaluable.

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Antidepressants to treat grief? Psychiatry panelists with ties to drug industry say yes [View all] HiPointDem Dec 2012 OP

Heaven forbid people miss more than a few days of work Catherina Dec 2012 #1

If it helps people to get over their grief, then good...nt SidDithers Dec 2012 #2

Post removed Post removed Dec 2012 #20

Awwwww, you've been tombstoned again already... SidDithers Dec 2012 #28

My 76 year old father took a mild Jenoch Dec 2012 #3

i think you mean you *wouldn't* condemn it, right? HiPointDem Dec 2012 #4

Fixed, thank you. Jenoch Dec 2012 #7

What could go wrong? green for victory Dec 2012 #5

I couldn't agree with you more! StarryNite Dec 2012 #27

Finally someone shared this side of the story AndSheGoesDown Dec 2012 #117

While prescribing an anti-depressant in some cases may be appropriate dballance Dec 2012 #6

You may not be aware of it, Ms. Toad Dec 2012 #45

You are correct dballance Dec 2012 #46

I don't see why we can't treat subclinical resp. infections and emotional discomfort HereSince1628 Dec 2012 #8

you're comparing anti-depressants to anti-histamines? HiPointDem Dec 2012 #9

No. I'm comparing two sources of discomfort and HereSince1628 Dec 2012 #11

Because prescription drugs kill more people than diabetes, than illegal drugs, than influenza & HiPointDem Dec 2012 #12

Who is to determine normal grief? Who is to say when the HereSince1628 Dec 2012 #21

and doctors don't prescribe heroin for head colds. in fact, they don't generally prescribe HiPointDem Dec 2012 #23

Jack Daniels is a common self-medication for grief...it's got problems too. HereSince1628 Dec 2012 #26

your condescending attitude is duly noted. alcohol = non-prescription, & cheap. and more HiPointDem Dec 2012 #36

A lot of depression/anxiety medications are cheap and effective long term. I know. I take one. phleshdef Dec 2012 #39

I take it too larwdem Dec 2012 #52

Me too vankuria Dec 2012 #207

show me where 'brain chemistry imbalance' has ever been demonstrated in the scientific literature. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #102

but the pain is back worse the next day with alcohol, and it can easily become a crutch. bettyellen Dec 2012 #88

no -- they give *your* system a 'kickstart', apparently. but *you* are not the population. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #89

nice bullshit attempt at shaming *me*. if you don't know how SSRIs work and prefer hangovers bettyellen Dec 2012 #96

Drawing attention to the fact that you are not the only human being in the world, your experience HiPointDem Dec 2012 #98

you seem to be really thick about the fact I was talking about my Mom and 6 other people bettyellen Dec 2012 #112

as i said before, your experiences are not the *only* experiences. nor are the experiences HiPointDem Dec 2012 #145

particularly when alcohol is itself a depressant TorchTheWitch Dec 2012 #152

thoroughly fucked up and dangerous was exactly my thought. bettyellen Dec 2012 #172

"dangerous"? OMG. fucked up indeed. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #183

to go around and tell people who've been helped by meds that they are wrong because of bettyellen Dec 2012 #185

I didn't say anything like that. Go back and look at the post I was responding to and my response. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #187

is bereavement now 'mental illness?' imagine that. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #180

The OP should ring a bell. nt msanthrope Jan 2013 #267

And I'll treat a mild sub-clinical condition with... TheMadMonk Dec 2012 #48

How you possibly speak for anyone easttexaslefty Dec 2012 #64

And that's exactly whay YOU are doing. TheMadMonk Dec 2012 #67

one day larwdem Dec 2012 #84

how do you know 'it' hasn't happened to him? Other people are not *you*. Most people who HiPointDem Dec 2012 #91

Are you a qualified medical professional? idwiyo Dec 2012 #189

1) It doesn't take a 'qualified medical professional' to assert that bereavement is not a HiPointDem Dec 2012 #192

Thank you for admitting you are not a qualified professional. More inside. idwiyo Dec 2012 #198

First, I didn't say I wasn't a 'qualified professional.' That's just what you read *into* what I HiPointDem Jan 2013 #258

you larwdem Jan 2013 #269

how do you know 'it' hasn't already 'happened' to me? answer: you don't. you don't know HiPointDem Jan 2013 #270

I understand that it's necessary for you. TheMadMonk Dec 2012 #191

so deeply sorry easttexaslefty Skittles Dec 2012 #184

I am so so sorry. ((((Hugs)))) idwiyo Dec 2012 #188

it's bad, isn't it? Skittles Dec 2012 #216

Yes. hugs to you too. idwiyo Dec 2012 #218

There is no comparison. easttexaslefty Dec 2012 #62

and so can ssri's. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #74

I don't quite understand what you're saying -- you seem to support the pill-pushing, except for - downandoutnow Dec 2012 #10

In addition to being a post about anti-depressants it's also a post that reflects HereSince1628 Dec 2012 #15

grief is a mental dysfunction? that's the level of absolute craziness this crap is getting to. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #17

Only because you are in a low information state regarding definitions of pathology HereSince1628 Dec 2012 #22

it's your own editorializing that added 'perpetual'. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #25

Jesus you are dense or just looking for a way to take exception HereSince1628 Dec 2012 #29

maybe it's you who's dense. physicians have always been free to prescribe for 'grief' that goes HiPointDem Dec 2012 #31

Better than someone becoming a newly formed alcoholic or something. Neoma Dec 2012 #60

if they're the type to become alcoholic because of grief, they're also the type to have a similar HiPointDem Dec 2012 #75

Uhm, a lot of people with mental health issues have had drug issues. Neoma Dec 2012 #94

Who made you sit through crap tama Dec 2012 #236

Ya. Sometimes it is. easttexaslefty Dec 2012 #66

what the hell do you know about what i have or haven't experienced? as i said before, docs HiPointDem Dec 2012 #76

Yes actually. The changes occur in the neurotransmitter functions in the brain. BeHereNow Dec 2012 #90

Thank you....HPD is seriously uninformed about SSRIs. bettyellen Dec 2012 #113

Everything you do changes 'neurotransmitter function in the brain.' Everything. The very fact HiPointDem Dec 2012 #146

And your statements signify your willful state of ignorance. BeHereNow Dec 2012 #222

Um...I WOULD criticize someone for taking a med for a runny nose! postrinserepeat.... Dec 2012 #19

It's everyone's choice to choose to be a social bully, to criticize others for taking cold remedies HereSince1628 Dec 2012 #24

And what do you call, browbeating a doctor into prescribing... TheMadMonk Dec 2012 #50

Thank you for bringing us yet ANOTHER example of the rampant pill-pushing going on these days. downandoutnow Dec 2012 #13

Grieving is a social and emotional process. undeterred Dec 2012 #14

Emotional processes are chemical in nature. phleshdef Dec 2012 #41

and chemical processes are emotional in nature. and ssri's are no more effective, in aggregate, HiPointDem Dec 2012 #81

you're completely wrong about ssris and placebos. i hope no one believes this shit. bettyellen Dec 2012 #115

oh, "completely" wrong? how's that? Most people diagnosed with depression & put on SSRIs HiPointDem Dec 2012 #123

Bereavement can CAUSE serious clinical depression. bettyellen Dec 2012 #124

And physicians have always had that option. The new decision is not about 'serious clinical HiPointDem Dec 2012 #133

Um no, chemical process are not emotional. phleshdef Dec 2012 #164

lol. you only think so because you are out of my depth. you have no idea what i'm talking about. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #166

You are talking a bunch of borderline scientology bullshit. phleshdef Dec 2012 #168

And you have no argument, thus the name-calling. Please, link me to a post about 'scientology HiPointDem Dec 2012 #173

OMG, Tom Cruise is in the house! bettyellen Dec 2012 #175

You can't be serious. This would be ignorance of such a breathtaking proportion it must be a joke. idwiyo Dec 2012 #214

Prove me wrong or shut the fuck up. phleshdef Dec 2012 #238

I think you replied to the wrong person :) idwiyo Dec 2012 #245

LOL. My sincerest apologies sir. phleshdef Dec 2012 #246

Not a problem :) Happy New Year! idwiyo Dec 2012 #247

Umm tama Dec 2012 #237

how long is it okay to be depressed? Ten years, twenty of forty? I've seen it happen. bettyellen Dec 2012 #120

Christians put people into despair and depression shintao Dec 2012 #16

wtf does religion have to do with this op? and for that matter, it's bullshit that non-christians HiPointDem Dec 2012 #18

No, what's bullshit is the ridiculous Christian/Western... TheMadMonk Dec 2012 #53

talking about 'other cultures' in aggregate as if they were all the same is bullshit; and 'other HiPointDem Dec 2012 #83

I have been on many different meds for depression over the years. Jennicut Dec 2012 #30

Celexa is a good, cheap, inoffensive anti-anxiety medication. phleshdef Dec 2012 #38

Celexa is not so inoffensive. Ms. Toad Dec 2012 #61

Agreed, active management is required by a psychiatrist TexasBushwhacker Dec 2012 #65

Antidepressants cause different reactions in people. Jennicut Dec 2012 #77

It is your subject line that is the key. Ms. Toad Dec 2012 #136

what works for one doesn't necessarily work well for others TorchTheWitch Dec 2012 #160

Well some people can't handle certain medications, whether it be for blood pressure, diabetes... phleshdef Dec 2012 #167

Antidepressants are different than medications than medications Ms. Toad Dec 2012 #199

Do you have statistics to back that up? phleshdef Dec 2012 #200

It isn't how frequently they occur that matters - Ms. Toad Dec 2012 #204

Man when I was in college, 19 years old, I had some pretty crazy sex hookups. phleshdef Dec 2012 #206

That is part of how insidious it is. Ms. Toad Dec 2012 #217

+1, it's amazing around here sometimes Union Scribe Dec 2012 #70

Abso-fucking-lutely... SidDithers Dec 2012 #72

It has been really good for me. Jennicut Dec 2012 #78

Effexor has been the best one for me easttexaslefty Dec 2012 #194

then why does it come with a black-box warning? NO SSRI is 'inoffensive'. they ALL have similar HiPointDem Dec 2012 #85

And so does blood pressure medication, diabetes medication, heart medication, etc. phleshdef Dec 2012 #162

Yes, there's a reason they're supposed to be prescribed by a doctor. But not all prescription meds HiPointDem Dec 2012 #170

You act like you want me to draw you a fucking picture or something. phleshdef Dec 2012 #174

link me to some. since you say they're plentiful. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #176

Not that you deserve the effort... phleshdef Dec 2012 #179

The first link is not to an actual study, but a popularized summary of a study done in 2000. The HiPointDem Dec 2012 #186

Just because something was written for normal human consumption... phleshdef Dec 2012 #197

of course it's less valid when it doesn't report the study results & implications accurately. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #208

You've failed to prove that brain chemistry imbalance doesn't exist. phleshdef Dec 2012 #209

you really don't know anything about the subject, as you've demonstrated quite thoroughly. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #210

You don't need to know much. Its settled, widely accepted science. phleshdef Dec 2012 #211

A popularized explanation from a 'medical professional,' a psych prof at Brown U, just for you. 2/12 HiPointDem Dec 2012 #212

You conveniently left out a lot of what he said in the video. phleshdef Dec 2012 #219

CBS: So how well do scientists & psychiatrists understand the causes of depression? HiPointDem Dec 2012 #221

We don't grieve enough Smilo Dec 2012 #32

+1. when you love someone you never 'get over' their death, you just learn to live with the fact HiPointDem Dec 2012 #33

+1 to you and Smilo n/t dflprincess Dec 2012 #97

yeah, everyone experiences the same level of harmless but perpetual grief that you did! bettyellen Dec 2012 #118

We have an old tradition of "professional" cry-women tama Dec 2012 #240

Our friends in the pharma industry CARE about people. AndyA Dec 2012 #34

It helped my grandmother get her head back together whenever my dad died. phleshdef Dec 2012 #35

oh bullshit. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #37

Oh not bullshit. You are ignorant. You might as well be against all medicine. phleshdef Dec 2012 #42

+1 and hugs to you and your grandma. idwiyo Dec 2012 #43

name-calling duly noted. to clarify, i was saying 'bullshit' to your 'some people are ignorant, HiPointDem Dec 2012 #95

You seem to be telling the people that SSRIs helped Confusious Dec 2012 #140

I have never said a word about people's personal experiences except that their experiences are HiPointDem Dec 2012 #141

You seem to be running around telling everyone that their experiences don't matter Confusious Dec 2012 #144

actually, i started off posting a pretty straightforward article about changes in psychiatric HiPointDem Dec 2012 #147

Unhappiness can be depression also Confusious Dec 2012 #150

nope, 'unhappiness' is not clinical depression, even if it goes on for years. but such fogginess HiPointDem Dec 2012 #151

Sorry, but you're wrong Confusious Dec 2012 #153

there are many reasons for unhappiness, even long-lived unhappiness, and not all of them are HiPointDem Dec 2012 #156

Again, you're wrong Confusious Dec 2012 #161

Calling you ignorant means that I'm saying that you don't know what you are talking about. phleshdef Dec 2012 #158

no, what you mean is that you don't *believe* i know what i'm talking about. and the reason you HiPointDem Dec 2012 #163

You've offered to basically make the Tom Cruise argument. phleshdef Dec 2012 #169

and you are constantly going to the ad hominem argument. I am not tom cruise, nor a scientologist. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #171

You might as well be. Your argument is just as looney. phleshdef Dec 2012 #177

my argument is that bereavement is not clinical depression and doesn't require medication. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #178

You are wrong. Major depressive disorders can be triggered by bereavement. phleshdef Dec 2012 #182

everything he says can be said of ANY medication, including many OTCs. and is bullshit bettyellen Dec 2012 #119

Exactly. Union Scribe Dec 2012 #132

Was this article written by scientologists by any chance? Sure sounds like it to me. idwiyo Dec 2012 #40

yet, Mother Tersa and the Scientologists could have written half these posts. bettyellen Dec 2012 #125

I don't think there is a clear-cut LWolf Dec 2012 #44

People close to me have been dying since I was a little kid, Blue_In_AK Dec 2012 #47

If it prevents a suicide, then I am all for it Taverner Dec 2012 #49

the drugs also increase suicide risk, so how would you tell? HiPointDem Dec 2012 #93

...significant financial implications for the $10 billion U.S. antidepressant market... MADem Dec 2012 #51

"Society teaches us that having feelings and crying is bad and wrong. arely staircase Dec 2012 #54

Of course grief isn't wrong. easttexaslefty Dec 2012 #69

that's not what this new ruling is about. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #87

You misunderstand. woo me with science Dec 2012 #159

I would probably do something crazy like try vitamins first... Kalidurga Dec 2012 #55

"Better left to nature" has been replaced due to the profit margin & so goes "first, do no harm". mother earth Dec 2012 #56

What else is "better left to nature"? Union Scribe Dec 2012 #71

grief is not a disease. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #92

Tell me, what exactly do you actually know about bipolar disorder? BeHereNow Dec 2012 #99

is grief now 'bipolar disorder' as well as 'depression' now? gee, science is wonderful. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #100

You are unbelievable and did not answer my question. BeHereNow Dec 2012 #103

did you even *read* the OP? do you know what *bereaved* means? HiPointDem Dec 2012 #105

Yes, I know VERY well what bereaved means. You know nothing about BeHereNow Dec 2012 #109

I don't? Is that so? Perhaps I know a great deal about it, but disagree with your analysis and HiPointDem Dec 2012 #116

What is obvious is that you are trying to discourage others from looking for professional help. idwiyo Dec 2012 #190

To whom have I offered medical advice? On whom have I "forced" medical advice? Please link me. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #193

Every single of your posts here. To everyone who reads them. idwiyo Dec 2012 #201

It's calling tama Dec 2012 #241

And please do tell me what you know about the BP brain malfunctions. BeHereNow Dec 2012 #248

That is your choice then and I respect that tama Dec 2012 #250

There has been NO positive side to BP for the person I love. BeHereNow Dec 2012 #251

That is your narrative about your life situation tama Dec 2012 #252

Wanna come walk a mile in my shoes? BeHereNow Dec 2012 #253

Please feel free to share tama Dec 2012 #254

Thank you for your invitation- BeHereNow Dec 2012 #255

Depression is. nt Union Scribe Dec 2012 #128

the OP, & the new ruling, is not about 'depression'. It's about NORMAL BEREAVEMENT. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #130

Is grief disease? Today we skip diagnosis, feeling is disease. Are you kidding? nt mother earth Jan 2013 #266

I was so thankful when my doctor put me on some short term after the death of my fianc�. CraftyGal Dec 2012 #57

i am sorry that happened to you and glad you let yourself find love and live. n/t babydollhead Dec 2012 #58

People used to be given longer to mourn TexasBushwhacker Dec 2012 #59

so can antidepressants. HiPointDem Jan 2013 #265

while america has been fighting pot wars, big pharma has been incessantly drugging us... spanone Dec 2012 #63

the Feds had the time to file a patent on pot... green for victory Dec 2012 #68

This place looks positively dumb when psychiatry comes up. Union Scribe Dec 2012 #73

+1 Care Acutely Dec 2012 #80

the only people who look dumb are the drug-pushers. worse than dumb, actually. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #86

You have no idea how much damage you are doing tonight. BeHereNow Dec 2012 #106

The OP is about prescribing antidepressants to people who just lost a loved one. Not about HiPointDem Dec 2012 #108

Loss of a "loved one" can take many forms HiPointDem. BeHereNow Dec 2012 #110

the new ruling is not about those 'other contexts'. it is about your mother, father, spouse, child HiPointDem Dec 2012 #111

Again, you have not heard me. BeHereNow Dec 2012 #114

Everything you do changes neurotransmitter 'chemistry'. Moving your hand changes neurotransmitter HiPointDem Dec 2012 #126

Being in a constant state of grief is depression Confusious Dec 2012 #143

You don't know anything about me. But I know you think you can read minds. Over the internet, HiPointDem Dec 2012 #148

It's easy to tell people who've never had real depression Confusious Dec 2012 #149

as i said, i don't offer my personal experience up to score points in pissing matches. but you're HiPointDem Dec 2012 #154

Like I said, I don't have to read minds, only a few written words. Confusious Dec 2012 #155

a person using racial epitaphs (sic) is not automatically a racist, either. and you are no HiPointDem Dec 2012 #157

I said I wasn't a mind reader Confusious Dec 2012 #165

I understand that bereavement is not clinical depression, and it's not mental illness. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #181

I was depressed once, Why don't you just snap out of it, Go find something to do, idwiyo Dec 2012 #213

+1 Union Scribe Dec 2012 #129

Oh dear. Union Scribe Dec 2012 #127

Bereavement is now mental illness, is that what you're pushing? HiPointDem Dec 2012 #131

You do know, I hope, that people with Union Scribe Dec 2012 #134

Doctors have always had it as an option. The old standard was if person didn't return to normal HiPointDem Dec 2012 #137

You're contradicting yourself Union Scribe Dec 2012 #138

doctors have always had the option to prescribe when bereavement turned into pathology: HiPointDem Dec 2012 #139

you ignore this link green for victory Dec 2012 #196

I don't see a problem with this, taken on a case by case basis Care Acutely Dec 2012 #79

A problem I have with this is that once on Ilsa Dec 2012 #82

On the contrary, doctors generally have you taper down after you've been taking them TexasBushwhacker Dec 2012 #121

My late mother ... CountAllVotes Dec 2012 #101

Did you know wellbutrin is given for smoking cessation? Under the name Zyban. And it's in the HiPointDem Dec 2012 #104

My mother is deceased CountAllVotes Dec 2012 #135

Antidepressants can cause physical dependency. Quantess Dec 2012 #107

Yes they do, but the alternative is worse Confusious Dec 2012 #142

Psychiatric meds shouldn't be taken lightly AndSheGoesDown Dec 2012 #122

Ugh. dkf Dec 2012 #195

This is entirely different from the standard treatment I've heard about. no_hypocrisy Dec 2012 #202

I got through it without medication this year. Just some counseling for nightmares and sleep issues. slackmaster Dec 2012 #203

OMG! I FEEL something. Quick, give me a pill so I won't have to be human. nt Speck Tater Dec 2012 #205

In general, I've always liked your posts- but not this one. BeHereNow Dec 2012 #223

I sat at my wife's side as she died. Speck Tater Dec 2012 #226

Not everyone has your good fortune- and my apology for assuming so- BeHereNow Dec 2012 #227

I understand. Speck Tater Dec 2012 #231

one thing people can perhaps agree on is that capitalists try to expand their markets & use HiPointDem Dec 2012 #234

Drug companies don't try to create cures. They try to create customers. nt Speck Tater Dec 2012 #235

+1,000,000! Where do people taking their drugs think Pharma's profits come from? Catherina Dec 2012 #244

Yes tama Dec 2012 #239

Let me tell you a personal story of taking antidepressants for grief. Avalux Dec 2012 #215

Grief is an emotional process AnnieBW Dec 2012 #220

Educate yourself HPD- before making a FOOL OF YOURSELF. BeHereNow Dec 2012 #224

There are neurotransmitter changes with loss/grief? My my. Isn't that amazing. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #225

No, not really. You have revealed yourself as the LEAST educated on this matter. BeHereNow Dec 2012 #228

and yours is amusing to anyone who understands the basics about what neurotransmitters are, HiPointDem Dec 2012 #229

Please- expound on the topic as it relates to mental health... BeHereNow Dec 2012 #230

& you wouldn't understand it if you heard it. HiPointDem Dec 2012 #232

As I predicted... you have nothing of substance to respond with. BeHereNow Dec 2012 #249

You are closed to all input. not my problem. HiPointDem Jan 2013 #257

You are comic relief at this point! "Input?" Are you serious? WHAT input? BeHereNow Jan 2013 #260

i've offered plenty of substantial input. more than you, actually. you've offered a lot of HiPointDem Jan 2013 #261

Substantial input? PLEASE give me examples. BeHereNow Jan 2013 #262

lol. HiPointDem Jan 2013 #264

This man IS a doctor green for victory Jan 2013 #263

Were it not for Paxil, I'm not sure I'd be here WilmywoodNCparalegal Dec 2012 #233

I highly recommend "Demystifying Psychiatry" gulliver Dec 2012 #242

+1. Exactly right, the profit motive and the pharmacorps are dictating the direction of medicine HiPointDem Dec 2012 #243

I have a friend from Ethiopia Matariki Dec 2012 #256

The west & the US used to give similar space & significance to mourning; for example, the practice HiPointDem Jan 2013 #259

Indeed. Both my parents are dead and I remember only having a couple days to 'deal' with it. Matariki Jan 2013 #268