General Discussion

GreenStormCloud

(12,072 posts)

182. I understand case control very well. I also understand bias.

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 04:39 AM

Jan 2013

Show me a study (Must be free to see online) that specifically controls for criminality. Such control must be explicit, not merely implied. You are trying to imply causation by correlation, but there can be a different cause for each. Being a viiolent criminal, and living with a violent criminal, is very dangerous.

I don't have much trust in medical types that want to play criminologist. I would rather trust criminologist in those fields.

Notice that in the CDC web page for statistics, they do not have a category for "armed self defense". They call it "undetermined intent". Even police shootings are called, "legal intervention". http://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate10_sy.html

The medical studies, and gun controllers, make no effort to count lives saved by having guns. It is as if they don't exist. Yet, from personal experience I know that such cases do exist as my own wife is one such case. She is alive because she had a gun when she needed one. (I have posted the story multiple times.)

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Can anyone provide a reason for more than 3 rounds? [View all] NashvilleLefty Dec 2012 OP

Ranchers with bum eyes and iron sights pitted against wiley coyotes might want more Brother Buzz Dec 2012 #1

. NashvilleLefty Dec 2012 #3

You've never taken a shot at a coyote and missed. safeinOhio Dec 2012 #39

Perhaps they should hunt Wiley Coyote with an Anvil or a Piano... Agnosticsherbet Dec 2012 #110

You can have my piano when you pry it out of my cold dead fingers Bucky Jan 2013 #199

Ok, we can kill him with an anvil. Agnosticsherbet Jan 2013 #203

What I ask the guys around here on things like that - bhikkhu Dec 2012 #2

That pretty much sums it up. nt NashvilleLefty Dec 2012 #5

30 round magazine... LP2K12 Dec 2012 #43

I never have a round chambered reverend_tim Dec 2012 #107

I agree with you. LP2K12 Dec 2012 #109

What about three rounds only for shotguns Bandit Dec 2012 #108

What federal law? N/T beevul Dec 2012 #148

Citation? PavePusher Jan 2013 #191

Arms Race Darque Wing Dec 2012 #123

Four assailants? OneTenthofOnePercent Dec 2012 #4

so, if "highly trained" shooters miss that much NashvilleLefty Dec 2012 #6

Highly trained was in quotes because cops, by most observations, OneTenthofOnePercent Dec 2012 #11

15 round 12 gauge? Drahthaardogs Dec 2012 #40

If you are thinking of a KSG, OneTenthofOnePercent Dec 2012 #45

To be honest, I would rather spend $1000 Drahthaardogs Dec 2012 #146

If you manage to drill one, do you think the other 3 are going to stick around for the reload? Major Nikon Dec 2012 #14

Most of my guns are for recreation. Not really for home defense. OneTenthofOnePercent Dec 2012 #19

I have no issues with that Major Nikon Dec 2012 #21

That study is deeply flawed. GreenStormCloud Dec 2012 #172

You obviously have a very poor understanding of how case controlled studies work Major Nikon Dec 2012 #174

I understand case control very well. I also understand bias. GreenStormCloud Jan 2013 #182

There are numerous studies which show the same thing Major Nikon Jan 2013 #185

I lost track. Are you talking about criminals, coyotes, or deer with that question? Bucky Jan 2013 #200

Yes Major Nikon Jan 2013 #202

Back in the Marine Corps... Recursion Dec 2012 #20

I'll keep that in mind for the next time I go to war with the neighbors Major Nikon Dec 2012 #22

Not exactly analogous. Straw Man Jan 2013 #179

"Pumping 60 rounds into one or two perps" Warren Stupidity Dec 2012 #32

You just made the case for large capacity magazines Hugabear Dec 2012 #62

That thing would weigh a ton loaded. We have a 3 round limit in Ohio for deer n/t doc03 Dec 2012 #65

Depends on who's buyin' jberryhill Dec 2012 #7

Because it's not enough for pretty much any self-defense scenario that I can think of. krispos42 Dec 2012 #8

I'm not grabbing a gun. I'm letting my dog take care of them. NashvilleLefty Dec 2012 #10

Yeah, because no invader has ever shot a dog... Coyote_Tan Dec 2012 #42

Hogwash. 99Forever Dec 2012 #84

Big loud barking targets ... Coyote_Tan Dec 2012 #153

Not if he has Berserker Dec 2012 #171

Snarling, biting, flesh... 99Forever Jan 2013 #176

My dads dobie spent half its life blind after a robbery. Xithras Jan 2013 #190

Really? 99Forever Jan 2013 #194

Once, on one of those A&E Mafia shows FrodosPet Dec 2012 #13

Lemme ask you a counter-question Major Nikon Dec 2012 #15

That's overall. krispos42 Dec 2012 #88

I'm sure most of the people who had guns which were used to kill family members Fresh_Start Dec 2012 #104

Everyone is subject to depression Major Nikon Dec 2012 #157

True krispos42 Dec 2012 #162

You probably will be Major Nikon Dec 2012 #164

I think you need more guns and bullets Confusious Dec 2012 #38

At that point, it's time for my nuclear hand grenade! krispos42 Dec 2012 #140

In that scenario I want 15 + 1 in the chamber. Bake Dec 2012 #136

Who needs a sports car? Why not eliminate all things we don't think people need The Straight Story Dec 2012 #9

Now you're just being ridicuolus. NashvilleLefty Dec 2012 #12

Why not let people buy RPGs, hand grenades, and cluster bombs? Major Nikon Dec 2012 #16

The RPG is just a metal tube; you can easily buy that today Recursion Dec 2012 #18

What do you think about claymores and flame throwers? Major Nikon Dec 2012 #23

Those are not firearms Atomsk Dec 2012 #26

The 2nd Amendment doesn't say firearms Major Nikon Dec 2012 #33

We know it means firearms. We have the Federlist Papers and the Congressional Records... NutmegYankee Dec 2012 #53

Doesn't matter Major Nikon Dec 2012 #60

Citing the Federalist Papers is an example of Originalism. nt NutmegYankee Dec 2012 #66

And an NRA talking point. nt oldhippie Dec 2012 #69

And common throughout the legal realm, used by many groups, both liberal and conservative. NutmegYankee Dec 2012 #71

So where does it say firearms? Major Nikon Dec 2012 #73

It uses arms, but the context makes it clear it was firearms. NutmegYankee Dec 2012 #82

Just refer to the 1st Militia act - intent is VERY easy to see. jmg257 Dec 2012 #83

Understand your point. NutmegYankee Dec 2012 #99

Which is completely irrelevant to Scalia's argument Major Nikon Dec 2012 #161

It also says.... 99Forever Dec 2012 #86

Do you even know what it means? NutmegYankee Dec 2012 #87

Yes I do... 99Forever Dec 2012 #94

I have neither of those. NutmegYankee Dec 2012 #98

Of course you don't. 99Forever Dec 2012 #105

Because it's not true in most cases. NutmegYankee Dec 2012 #120

Blather on. 99Forever Dec 2012 #135

Yes. You have. n/t PavePusher Jan 2013 #192

Flame throwers are classified as agricultural devices. N/T beevul Dec 2012 #149

Just Hummers that aren't in a war zone . orpupilofnature57 Dec 2012 #27

That's a mature argument. Barack_America Dec 2012 #70

Has nothing to do with the debate at hand. Dash87 Dec 2012 #106

False. Marinedem Dec 2012 #168

Feral pigs. Plus ten rounds has been pretty standard for over 100 years Recursion Dec 2012 #17

Canada required that they all be either disposed of or modified. Warren Stupidity Dec 2012 #34

How many were disposed of or modified? (nt) Recursion Dec 2012 #50

Put it this way laundry_queen Jan 2013 #180

I dont follow your logic Atomsk Dec 2012 #24

Notice Stalin didn't catch that nifty quote from Marx . Welcome to DU ! orpupilofnature57 Dec 2012 #28

Indeed he didn't. Lizzie Poppet Dec 2012 #77

+1000 !!!! orpupilofnature57 Dec 2012 #152

IIRC, you wanted a list of people you thought were "mental" so you could ghettoize them Kolesar Dec 2012 #29

Oh, please. The asymmetry between civilians and the state is absolute and insurmountable. Robb Dec 2012 #51

Then mere possibility of armed response by the people SQUEE Dec 2012 #68

Utter fantasy. And if you were a "grunt" you didn't pay attention. Robb Dec 2012 #74

I paid attention well enough to notice a metric shit ton SQUEE Dec 2012 #81

I wasn't a grunt, but I paid attention ..... oldhippie Dec 2012 #119

Col. Muammar Gaddafi will be glad to hear that .... oldhippie Dec 2012 #72

Because the Libyan army is just like the USMC. Robb Dec 2012 #75

You will refuse to get the point, so ...... oldhippie Dec 2012 #118

Those helicopters didn't seem to be of much use against the beltway snipers. beevul Dec 2012 #150

Syria did not get your memos. PavePusher Jan 2013 #193

I thought this was going to be about UFC Capt. Obvious Dec 2012 #25

Or budget negotiations...eom Kolesar Dec 2012 #30

There are those times when you are accosted by 4 muggers.... n/t 2on2u Dec 2012 #31

If you are a self appointed community watch guard and you see a kid who is obviously black Warren Stupidity Dec 2012 #35

well suppose you have a big family or several coworkers......don't want to have to reload. bowens43 Dec 2012 #36

Trained officers have a 17% hit ratio. ileus Dec 2012 #37

Real world? safeinOhio Dec 2012 #41

Beckwith fired 105 rounds defending his home & store. OneTenthofOnePercent Dec 2012 #47

That's a nice armed security story about a high volume safeinOhio Dec 2012 #48

In the real world Yo_Mama Dec 2012 #63

Treatment for erectile dysfunction. morningfog Dec 2012 #44

..And that explains my Fiance, or my sisters SQUEE Dec 2012 #46

Women need help sometimes, too. morningfog Dec 2012 #52

And what do we "claim" to be? NutmegYankee Dec 2012 #59

I have no idea who you are or what you claim to be. morningfog Dec 2012 #64

More penis obsession... cherokeeprogressive Dec 2012 #89

+1,000. And the bogus alert on this failed, BTW - much whining about it in Meta. apocalypsehow Jan 2013 #177

Yep - I like M1903s and they hold 5 rounds. jmg257 Dec 2012 #49

Why do I need more rounds? guardian Dec 2012 #54

There are things that would make you feel better. GoneOffShore Dec 2012 #58

Self defense, especially in the case of hand guns ProgressiveProfessor Dec 2012 #55

And that's what I would propose as well. nt NutmegYankee Dec 2012 #56

Four zombies slackmaster Dec 2012 #57

After you fire your 3 shots you can always use the gun as a club Chisox08 Dec 2012 #156

There are several reasons. Link herein. geckosfeet Dec 2012 #61

4 armed intruders? crazyjoe Dec 2012 #67

Which happens when? Robb Dec 2012 #76

What happens when? Remmah2 Dec 2012 #102

ya, that's what i meant........ crazyjoe Dec 2012 #147

Generally, when four armed guys kick down your door... backscatter712 Dec 2012 #151

In a debate here at DU, I was told that you need an assault weapon for herds of wild hogs. Buzz Clik Dec 2012 #78

Which are real, and very rare nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #101

In the same thread, an informed hunter... Buzz Clik Dec 2012 #112

If it wasn't tragic nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #116

I'm curious, Nadin, how many hogs have you shot? .... oldhippie Dec 2012 #121

The cartridges may be totally adequate, but... Buzz Clik Dec 2012 #125

I'm really sorry to disappoint you, but .... oldhippie Dec 2012 #142

I gotta say nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #155

Actually, my dear Nadin, you know less than you think ... oldhippie Dec 2012 #158

What part of MILGRADE did you miss nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #159

None. How many hogs have you killed? oldhippie Dec 2012 #163

Gee kettle and all that. nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #165

Fine. When you can't win an argument, ignore the issue .... oldhippie Dec 2012 #167

Gee...speaking off nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #169

Bad shots and slow ducks. leveymg Dec 2012 #79

Shotguns for decades have been made to carry 5 rounds. There was a time when duck hunting Purveyor Dec 2012 #80

Can anyone provide a reason for more than 3 rounds? oldhippydude Dec 2012 #85

Can anyone provide a reason rrneck Dec 2012 #90

My 1st and last post on this whole gun issue Separation Dec 2012 #91

Notice in your picture, no high capacity magazines, no assault rifles, no body armor DrewFlorida Dec 2012 #95

Bottom right of pic Hangingon Dec 2012 #113

From that pic, you can't tell what model Mini 14 that is, or even if it is a mini 14 for sure. DrewFlorida Dec 2012 #117

Please show me a link to a bolt action Mini-14 ...... oldhippie Dec 2012 #122

Here is a link with a picture of a mini 14 with bolt action, plenty more. DrewFlorida Dec 2012 #126

Uh, that is a Ruger 77 Scout rifle NickB79 Dec 2012 #130

Actually it is the Ruger GSR Glassunion Dec 2012 #132

My bad, that is a 77, however Mini 14 was made with a bolt action for the UK market. DrewFlorida Dec 2012 #138

No bolt action. This is the same Mini 14 action as sold here. Hangingon Jan 2013 #188

Those are collector's items in the US NickB79 Jan 2013 #198

For someone who knows it all, here is your proof. DrewFlorida Dec 2012 #141

Hello, that's a Scout Rifle MicaelS Dec 2012 #131

Here is the Mini 14 with straight pull bolt action, for those who still think it doesn't exist. DrewFlorida Dec 2012 #139

That's quite a stretch, but I like it ..... oldhippie Dec 2012 #143

They were made for the UK market, but I guess you didn't know that. DrewFlorida Dec 2012 #145

Yeah, poor sods, ...... oldhippie Dec 2012 #154

UK Mini-14 Straw Man Jan 2013 #178

I said they were made for the UK market, are you telling me we don't get foreign DrewFlorida Jan 2013 #183

No ... Straw Man Jan 2013 #184

Are you under the impression straight pulls are slow to fire? NickB79 Jan 2013 #197

This message was self-deleted by its author Marinedem Dec 2012 #170

I can tell. And Ruger Arms lists no bolt action Mini 14s. Hangingon Jan 2013 #186

The shotgun (second gun/person from right) appears to be a Mossberg 500 series.... PavePusher Jan 2013 #196

Magazine capacity is a very important issue but not the only issue. DrewFlorida Dec 2012 #92

You forgot smart bullets. Remmah2 Dec 2012 #100

And the shoulderthingthatgoesup Glassunion Dec 2012 #129

"high velocity rounds"? You mean common hunting ammo, right? n/t PavePusher Jan 2013 #195

Is there a limit on the number of people invited to a home invasion? Remmah2 Dec 2012 #93

You've been watching too many movies! DrewFlorida Dec 2012 #96

It is not that uncommon for there to be multiple home invaders. Glassunion Dec 2012 #128

Suppose you have a shootout with an attacker Ter Dec 2012 #97

Let's stick with the legal precedent nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #103

And to think some people have access to high capacity magazines and full automatic weapons. Remmah2 Dec 2012 #111

5 rounds is tops on any hunting rifle madrchsod Dec 2012 #114

Self-defense. aikoaiko Dec 2012 #115

More than one bad guy? Zax2me Dec 2012 #124

I've never hunted bear or had to defend myself against a wounded one, but Jackpine Radical Dec 2012 #127

Dangerous deer.... Historic NY Dec 2012 #133

What does hunting have to do with Jenoch Dec 2012 #134

Simple convenience n/t discntnt_irny_srcsm Dec 2012 #137

Deer run quickly OmahaBlueDog Dec 2012 #144

Where is hunting mentioned in the second amendment, again? X_Digger Dec 2012 #160

Your limits are close to what I think the limits should be. JoeyT Dec 2012 #166

5 for a rifle? My Grandfathers M 92 Winchester oneshooter Dec 2012 #173

I meant detachable magazines, JoeyT Jan 2013 #175

A friend of mine came up with a clever solution to the problem of loading tube-magazine .22s slackmaster Jan 2013 #187

I like what Wanda Sykes said... (not exact quote) If you need 100 rounds to shoot a deer, remind me Sparky 1 Jan 2013 #181

Unless you can present some evidence to support your assertions... PavePusher Jan 2013 #189

A pack of wolves? Four grizly bears? Hell, 2 grizzlies would take more than 3 shots. nt Speck Tater Jan 2013 #201

Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2013 #204

In twenty years, there probably won't be anymore lions in the wild to shoot MrScorpio Apr 2013 #205