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Igel

(35,282 posts)
36. Yes, I probably will.
Wed Jan 2, 2013, 02:49 AM
Jan 2013

But it's a linguistic problem. You need to define your terms and stick to the definition. You can't let your words shift meaning mid-conversation.

If "public debt" is everything that the government has every obligated itself to, the public debt is probably $90 or $100 trillion. There are all kinds of payments we're on the hook for. Think of this as definition 1.

If it's everything that is on current account (plus the national debt) then it's higher than the national debt. But it also means that all kinds of government employees go around producing this kind of public debt. It sort of makes a mockery of the law, in that suddenly the ability of the government to pay the paperclip bill shall not be questioned. You also have to wonder if Congress really authorized that particular borrowing against the full faith and credit of the United States. They're current accounts. Yeah, it's debt, but "public debt" that's owed for goods and services rendered to a private company? Think of this as definition 2.

Now, the national debt is what, $15.7 trillion or thereabouts? That's the public debt. Let's call this definition 3.

The debt held by the public, though, is rather smaller because some of the "public debt" is held by the Dept. of the Treasury and some by the Social Security Administration. Do you really consider debt that it's illegal for members of the public to own "public"? Let's call the debt actually authorized by Congress, issued by Treasury, and owned by the public "definition 4."

How expansive is the 14th Amendment? Well, it has some examples. All fall in definition 4. It mentions other kinds of things that would fall under definition 2 and 1, but they're not called "public debt." They're "claims" and "obligations."

People want a power grab because, well, they think it's necessary. When it comes down to laws versus imperial decree, they often choose whatever benefits them or theirs the most in the immediate term. It's strictly short-term thinking. That got us the 2008 economic disaster. It gets us a lot of the hyperpartisan wrangling. It's not a good practice. It's no way to run a country.

I agree the whole debt ceiling charade seems unconstitutional to me. grantcart Dec 2012 #1
Congress hasn't passed a budget in years Yo_Mama Dec 2012 #16
Well a lot of the nations' leading legal scholars disagree with you grantcart Dec 2012 #18
Youngstown Yo_Mama Dec 2012 #19
k&r... spanone Dec 2012 #2
So this is the law and the POTUS should just enforce it? Deep13 Dec 2012 #3
Thank you, louis Cha Dec 2012 #4
Damn good point! annabanana Dec 2012 #5
Ah, but I've been told today on DU that the constitution should be ignored n2doc Dec 2012 #6
It is a document that is subject to interpretation and change louis c Dec 2012 #7
i don't think that I'd note it works FreeJoe Dec 2012 #8
The debt ceiling increases are for all past spending. louis c Dec 2012 #9
That's precisely the point. Igel Dec 2012 #11
But I bet if the budget doesn't balance, you still have to eat louis c Dec 2012 #12
That is the weirdest reasoning I have ever seen Yo_Mama Dec 2012 #17
Come on louis c Jan 2013 #23
No, purchases on credit is debt. Igel Jan 2013 #35
Are you kidding me? louis c Dec 2012 #13
Yes, I probably will. Igel Jan 2013 #36
"National Debt" and "Public Debt" are all inclusive louis c Jan 2013 #37
I think it's a lot simpler than the 14th amendment jeff47 Dec 2012 #10
+1. nt bemildred Dec 2012 #14
I think you are quite wrong Yo_Mama Dec 2012 #15
Congress continues to make laws that the Government must pay louis c Jan 2013 #22
Why I disagree with your reasoning Jim Lane Jan 2013 #30
Congress passes laws that must be obeyed louis c Jan 2013 #31
That answers nothing. Jim Lane Jan 2013 #32
From article 9 of the Constitution... Redfairen Jan 2013 #20
The debt ceiling is about "appropriations (already) made by law" louis c Jan 2013 #21
Debt Ceiling buzzroller Jan 2013 #24
Welcome to DU, buzzroller louis c Jan 2013 #25
I am hoping to hear this from the Obama administration buzzroller Jan 2013 #26
Some questions exboyfil Jan 2013 #27
I think that he should just ignore the debt ceiling louis c Jan 2013 #28
Can you get a ruling without standing? exboyfil Jan 2013 #29
It's ripe for a challenge, the debt ceiling is. DevonRex Jan 2013 #33
The time is now. Faryn Balyncd Jan 2013 #34
Get on board, this discussion will be the all the rage in the coming weeks louis c Jan 2013 #38
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