General Discussion

EuroStyleSocialist

(45 posts)

292. Not a flame (hopefully)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 11:34 AM

Jan 2013

I guess I would be considered "far left" in today's political climate: I would love a social-welfare democracy like Sweden, Norway, even Germany. However, I understand what is and isn't possible in America.

But I am concerned about this deal. I want Obama to be successful and I want to avoid financial pain for the most vulnerable in America. But I also know that part of the calculus is leverage and many liberal economists I trust (Krugman, Reich, etc.) felt that Obama could have used the leverage of the cliff (even if we went over it) to get more with giving less. And there are still more hostage situations coming up (i.e., the debt ceiling) where strong backbone will be needed.

I'm reserving judgment on this until I read and know more. But from those who think we should "stop whining," I'd rather hear them address in a concrete way the concerns that: (1) we've lost the leverage against a debt ceiling confrontation, (2) we may not be able to trust Obama to hold out against social program cuts when dealing with the sequester given that he uses the rhetoric of belt-tightening, etc.

By all means, let's disagree - that's what makes this site interesting and not an echo chamber. But let's not attack each other. There's enough of that going on.

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I'm not sure the country is going over the cliff, but DU sure as hell has. [View all] Barack_America Jan 2013 OP

No flame here.... CherokeeDem Jan 2013 #1

ditto!!! CatWoman Jan 2013 #77

Ditto++! Sanity! Someone had to say it! 6502 Jan 2013 #117

This message was self-deleted by its author 6502 Jan 2013 #124

You're 1000% right! DU craziness is real... 6502 Jan 2013 #130

Oh, and to DUers who don't know what victory looks like... 6502 Jan 2013 #136

agree kardonb Jan 2013 #142

None here, either. BlueCaliDem Jan 2013 #253

The majority of members are on the left. Deal with it n/t leftstreet Jan 2013 #2

Explain how that works with the House of Representatives. tabasco Jan 2013 #7

How many DUers are members of that body? leftstreet Jan 2013 #10

Maybe someday donheld Jan 2013 #230

I'm on the left. Doesn't mean I can't comprehend reality. Barack_America Jan 2013 #12

At least you admit it's just a game n/t leftstreet Jan 2013 #15

It is what it is. Barack_America Jan 2013 #23

So make your points without bashing the majority here n/t leftstreet Jan 2013 #27

Actually, he's bashing a very vocal minority on the extremist far left..... OldDem2012 Jan 2013 #37

'extremist far left' people want to protect safety nets? leftstreet Jan 2013 #40

Protect the safety net for themselves ... 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2013 #44

You characterize the majority here as self-serving? leftstreet Jan 2013 #55

Yes, "some of the kindest, most thoughtful people on the left post here".... OldDem2012 Jan 2013 #72

How many members are 'extreme far left?' leftstreet Jan 2013 #80

Excellent Point WiffenPoof Jan 2013 #127

Yes ... 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2013 #139

No one has to apologize to you for more than hand to mouth thinking. TheKentuckian Jan 2013 #133

Since you've been homeless ... 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2013 #144

TRUTH. Number23 Jan 2013 #221

There was never any possibility of 'going over the cliff' ronnie624 Jan 2013 #315

You beat me to that 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2013 #42

So you consider FDR an extremist? How do you feel A Simple Game Jan 2013 #76

Considering Roosevelt left a lot of people (especially minorities) out of Social Security mythology Jan 2013 #106

Civil rights came later. The Republicans won't try to dismantle A Simple Game Jan 2013 #227

Social security helped a far-larger percentage of Americans than, say MannyGoldstein Jan 2013 #255

+1000 billh58 Jan 2013 #84

The self-immolation can't happen soon enough Hekate Jan 2013 #163

It is a Circle Bluegene Jan 2013 #89

Actually anything anyone does. aptal Jan 2013 #97

And just voted him back into office! caseymoz Jan 2013 #100

+1 Politicub Jan 2013 #161

"Extremeist far left" who like 70% OF AMERICANS Doctor_J Jan 2013 #201

I know, right? kurtzapril4 Jan 2013 #208

Isn't that what happened in 2010? Go ahead, sit out for 2014.... OldDem2012 Jan 2013 #248

Nope. That an urban legend. hootinholler Jan 2013 #285

That's the role of those outside the center. Jester Messiah Jan 2013 #278

Hmm DJ13 Jan 2013 #229

+100 billh58 Jan 2013 #222

What bothers me creeksneakers2 Jan 2013 #231

So tell us what the "extremist far left" wants that you dont want? I dare you. rhett o rick Jan 2013 #237

+1! uponit7771 Jan 2013 #256

so what. if they are such a vocal tiny minority why be upset roguevalley Jan 2013 #266

it is a very, very small group here.... tomp Jan 2013 #273

Really???? Plucketeer Jan 2013 #327

He's not bashing the majority because most of us are in agreement with him lunatica Jan 2013 #56

another voice of reason. thank you! n/t BlancheSplanchnik Jan 2013 #82

Hear hear. There's no chess match unless somebody moves. Barack_America Jan 2013 #102

That's exactly right... Blanks Jan 2013 #125

Sanity -- thank you Hekate Jan 2013 #164

Exactly. nt kstewart33 Jan 2013 #200

Well... fleabiscuit Jan 2013 #311

No thankyou sweety lunatica Jan 2013 #316

See the OP. I made my case there. nt Barack_America Jan 2013 #83

You have no case leftstreet Jan 2013 #96

Bashing? Criticizing. Barack_America Jan 2013 #105

'Flame away, my friends' leftstreet Jan 2013 #108

You, and others from your side of the debate, keep using that billh58 Jan 2013 #189

Wow, if your think that's a violation of the TOS then you're a bit too sensitive.... OldDem2012 Jan 2013 #250

And those with the guilty consciences are those who now are bashing YOU....I loved that OP, thanks! George II Jan 2013 #312

There was a case? Sherman A1 Jan 2013 #111

Agreed Sherman A1 Jan 2013 #110

the third party Naderites you mean. I am Liberal and President Obama is the best in 50 years graham4anything Jan 2013 #155

I enjoy your voice of reason. Thank you. n/t Isoldeblue Jan 2013 #43

Exactly appacom Jan 2013 #92

Left? Left? You keep using that word. Jakes Progress Jan 2013 #71

except that in your reality hfojvt Jan 2013 #261

As are we all, but a very vocal minority always posts the same extremist crap... OldDem2012 Jan 2013 #19

And to the point where one wonders mightily ... Hekate Jan 2013 #165

Yeah, the left that isnt satisfied with 25% of Americans living in poverty and you rhett o rick Jan 2013 #336

Do you have examples or are you just trying to start a fight? Tell us which issues the left support rhett o rick Jan 2013 #240

I'm on the left Lisa D Jan 2013 #57

Left yes, but not leftist ideologues. kstewart33 Jan 2013 #199

Explain which issues you disagree with the left. rhett o rick Jan 2013 #241

I don't disagree with any of these issues. kstewart33 Jan 2013 #293

Ahh yes pragmatism, the reason we been getting our asses kicked for the last 30 years. rhett o rick Jan 2013 #299

The Republicans compromised away their sacred principle. kstewart33 Jan 2013 #332

Bear with me. I still have a point or two to make. rhett o rick Jan 2013 #334

No flames here! Like you said - compromise is not the end of the world! hedgehog Jan 2013 #3

It's all in the definition. Doc Holliday Jan 2013 #79

I call l it a holdover from the 'tough guy' chickenhawk GOP presidencies. freshwest Jan 2013 #148

+1000. nt Barack_America Jan 2013 #206

It may be moot annabanana Jan 2013 #4

Bingo n/t Fumesucker Jan 2013 #6

What is this negotiations you speak off? nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #5

If you dont mind being lied to by the president bowens43 Jan 2013 #8

What was the lie? n/t 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2013 #48

He always lies! See 'The Obama Deception' on youtube! He's gonna kill us all!!!1!!11! freshwest Jan 2013 #121

Phew ... 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2013 #140

Well, I can't say I haven't been close to that sentiment this week: freshwest Jan 2013 #145

... 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2013 #150

He speaks my mind throughout the whole film. I've always been that way inside. freshwest Jan 2013 #301

Hey! I just watched that movie last week Control-Z Jan 2013 #264

MIne, too. Ain't it a hoot! freshwest Jan 2013 #291

Be a freeper LW1977 Jan 2013 #198

You aren't too presumptive and arrogant, are you? kurtzapril4 Jan 2013 #211

+1 freshwest Jan 2013 #298

Agree 100%. Tired of the totally clueless dumping their bile on DU. nt. OldDem2012 Jan 2013 #9

Thanks, you got that right! freshwest Jan 2013 #123

Rec. Figure out how to stop infesting Congress with Teabaggers CakeGrrl Jan 2013 #11

I tell them they have to GOTV in 2014 ... Hekate Jan 2013 #167

It's been 'cool' to diss Obama and supporters since the right has been doing it all along. freshwest Jan 2013 #330

I agree. It seems like some people do not want to negotiate - Gee - what does that remind you of? jillan Jan 2013 #13

I guess some DUers figure the GOP for terrorists, LOL. liberalmuse Jan 2013 #22

Not a koolaid drinker. Just old. liberalmuse Jan 2013 #14

Damn! That was well said! sheshe2 Jan 2013 #153

You've gone crazy Aerows Jan 2013 #16

Excuse me, but most of us see reality as it really is.... OldDem2012 Jan 2013 #85

Extreme left? Aerows Jan 2013 #91

I'm playing politics, and so is the President. And yes, you read my post correctly.... OldDem2012 Jan 2013 #183

What, exactly kurtzapril4 Jan 2013 #215

Read a few more posts and you'll get the picture. nt. OldDem2012 Jan 2013 #247

"The political fallout from the clff now falls squarely on House Republicans." - Hunh? WTF are coalition_unwilling Jan 2013 #17

Tell me how a $250K limit cures childhood poverty. Barack_America Jan 2013 #31

A perusal of my posts on the subject of the defense budget from 2003 (when I joined DU) until coalition_unwilling Jan 2013 #182

Defense spending -- you hit the nail on the head Hekate Jan 2013 #188

the difference druidity33 Jan 2013 #279

but didn't you hear 400K is the new working poor. Cobalt Violet Jan 2013 #32

+1 Owl Jan 2013 #158

Compromise is not a problem cbrer Jan 2013 #18

Agree. Sooooo many on this board have little or no understanding of how politics work. lamp_shade Jan 2013 #20

No the whining DU members understand, but they are as fucked up as House republicans. bluestate10 Jan 2013 #36

That's a big huge incorrect leap, assuming everyone who is unhappy djean111 Jan 2013 #39

Yes, but it's easier to generalize than it is to listen tblue Jan 2013 #47

It's all they've got. WorseBeforeBetter Jan 2013 #107

Sure seems that way. n/t lamp_shade Jan 2013 #112

Or real life, for that matter. DollarBillHines Jan 2013 #41

Agree elfin Jan 2013 #21

Our president has a mandate from voters Aerows Jan 2013 #25

And the voters have installed an intransigent GOP majority in the House. How do you propose CakeGrrl Jan 2013 #26

Let me ask you something Aerows Jan 2013 #33

You didn't answer the question. How in the fuck is the President supposed to work past a bluestate10 Jan 2013 #46

Same way Clinton cleaned Gingrich's clock daa Jan 2013 #81

Hindsight is always wonderful. bluestate10 Jan 2013 #195

Did Clinton increase the deficit 4 trillion and have to come back in daa Jan 2013 #337

I AM the American Middle Class. CakeGrrl Jan 2013 #50

d) something that will actually PASS in the house n/t LSK Jan 2013 #60

+1000 AnnieK401 Jan 2013 #51

Exactly Harmony Blue Jan 2013 #94

You seem to liken a "mandate" to a "do whatever the fuck you want" card. It isn't. Barack_America Jan 2013 #34

It is a do whatever the fuck you want card Aerows Jan 2013 #49

yes lets become that which we (pretend) to hate most pasto76 Jan 2013 #70

Just a word of advice. Baitball Blogger Jan 2013 #24

I will be satisfied Aerows Jan 2013 #29

I love you OP Mdterp01 Jan 2013 #28

Very well said nt One of the 99 Jan 2013 #30

You are correct! Pretzel_Warrior Jan 2013 #35

Blah blah blah Trajan Jan 2013 #38

Thank you navarth Jan 2013 #288

Expect many members of DU to stage a nude protest in your home very soon! n/t Darkhawk32 Jan 2013 #45

Why not? They are good in the nude, grabbing their knees for a clueless fool like Ralph Nader. nt bluestate10 Jan 2013 #67

There are a few people here who think anyone who makes a dollar more than they do.... ProudToBeBlueInRhody Jan 2013 #52

I am with you on that loyalkydem Jan 2013 #68

KRUGMAN SAYS IT BEST Skittles Jan 2013 #53

I am willing to bet $ 1 that if Obama is successful in separating taxes and spending cuts and grantcart Jan 2013 #149

Both sides moved creeksneakers2 Jan 2013 #242

Just a guess, but... TreasonousBastard Jan 2013 #54

Thank you!! mimi85 Jan 2013 #64

+1,000. And don't forget the 60 MILLION who voted for much worse things than we got last night! freshwest Jan 2013 #143

Agree, mandate or not, THE HOUSE IS CONTROLLED BY CRAZY TEA PARTY IDEOLOGUES LSK Jan 2013 #58

No flame here either. avebury Jan 2013 #59

That's what makes me so angry about the anti Obama people loyalkydem Jan 2013 #61

Yeah. Damn it. Jakes Progress Jan 2013 #73

I'm in full agreement with you lunatica Jan 2013 #62

The President has a tea party infested House to deal with customerserviceguy Jan 2013 #63

Sure beats the gun talk... Phentex Jan 2013 #65

Me, too-- Louisiana1976 Jan 2013 #93

Yeah. If only people would stop getting shot by them so much, your life would be peachy. Chorophyll Jan 2013 #154

You know, Sherman A1 Jan 2013 #66

Actually here at DU... aptal Jan 2013 #95

We will have to agree Sherman A1 Jan 2013 #109

That is changing now. Many of us are no longer welcome. madfloridian Jan 2013 #175

Well, Sherman A1 Jan 2013 #192

Well, madfloridian Jan 2013 #220

It's not a good idea stonecutter357 Jan 2013 #319

No, it's not that billh58 Jan 2013 #129

I disagree. Seems to be no room for any criticism at all. madfloridian Jan 2013 #177

Actually, the post I was responding billh58 Jan 2013 #184

I supported Obama in 2008, strongly. madfloridian Jan 2013 #187

Somehow I believe that billh58 Jan 2013 #190

What is "my side"? madfloridian Jan 2013 #193

I didn't call you billh58 Jan 2013 #196

How did you get 77,000 posts creeksneakers2 Jan 2013 #243

They are from the other DU. madfloridian Jan 2013 #257

Can I pour you another cup of whine? graham4anything Jan 2013 #277

There you go. A classic. Just call someone a whiner if they question anything Obama. madfloridian Jan 2013 #287

Do you still love Bernie Sanders the morning after? graham4anything Jan 2013 #290

Actually I think the whole thing was a political farce. madfloridian Jan 2013 #302

That must be your favorite... using the word "whine" madfloridian Jan 2013 #313

no,saying Naderite is my favorite (used as a negative to 3rd party ites) graham4anything Jan 2013 #318

If you have a side... i'm on it. druidity33 Jan 2013 #282

Thank you. Some very good older posters are not here now. madfloridian Jan 2013 #289

I don't think I've EVER seen Madfloridian kurtzapril4 Jan 2013 #205

Uh, you seem a little upset. billh58 Jan 2013 #212

Your reading comprehension kurtzapril4 Jan 2013 #216

Personal attack? billh58 Jan 2013 #223

Thank you. madfloridian Jan 2013 #217

How dare DU keep trying to be progressive. Jakes Progress Jan 2013 #69

Tell me more about Bernie Sanders being a filthy capitalist. Barack_America Jan 2013 #90

Whew. Jakes Progress Jan 2013 #131

?? Unemployment benefits for thousands of Americans are currently EXPIRED. Barack_America Jan 2013 #174

So you vote with boehner and ryan. And no benefits not gone. Jakes Progress Jan 2013 #338

I've been shaking my head at DU every day since the election SaveAmerica Jan 2013 #74

Thats no cave it's a sp... ahem PatrynXX Jan 2013 #75

K&R Firebrand Gary Jan 2013 #78

I am not going to Flame Liberalynn Jan 2013 #86

K&R, could have been much worse Jon Ace Jan 2013 #87

I agree. Negotiation and compromise is how it works. sonibeth Jan 2013 #88

We've had our silliness since the beginning of DU Stuckinthebush Jan 2013 #98

I just hope those that want us to call the bluff and go over are... Lady Freedom Returns Jan 2013 #99

most well-off/rich DUers agree with you fascisthunter Jan 2013 #101

some of my friends are glad that it's not $250,000 Rosa Luxemburg Jan 2013 #103

consider myself to be hard left tiredtoo Jan 2013 #104

Your entire premise is skewed...i.e... humbled_opinion Jan 2013 #113

1. I believe that much of the lost revenue in the 250K-400K bracket... Barack_America Jan 2013 #120

Silly.... humbled_opinion Jan 2013 #159

Rome all over again, 4_TN_TITANS Jan 2013 #114

I Agree Fully With Your Sentiments About DU of Late Indykatie Jan 2013 #115

DU has a "loony left" rep. Barack_America Jan 2013 #207

This is an okay stopgap... awoke_in_2003 Jan 2013 #116

Speaking of not understanding how politics work... Chathamization Jan 2013 #118

totally agree. tnvoter Jan 2013 #119

That's a six hundred billion dollar difference and with the plethoro Jan 2013 #122

There are still cuts in deductions creeksneakers2 Jan 2013 #245

Until we scrape the last vestiges of these buffoons from our shoes... randome Jan 2013 #126

Republicans got everything they wanted 4dsc Jan 2013 #128

or being a fraud fascisthunter Jan 2013 #135

bitch bitch bitch LW1977 Jan 2013 #137

If they got everything they wanted, why are they so miserable? Chorophyll Jan 2013 #147

Obama never was a "liberal". billy_j Jan 2013 #260

This message was self-deleted by its author Chorophyll Jan 2013 #283

I guess you missed the smirks. Eddie Haskell Jan 2013 #321

They're not miserable in the least. FiveGoodMen Jan 2013 #329

That explains the revolt amongst House Republicans. Barack_America Jan 2013 #170

Another fact- free rant on courage and leadership geek tragedy Jan 2013 #213

Sorry for not drinking the kool-aid harun Jan 2013 #132

NO CUTS FOR BIG WAR. Bad idea. grahamhgreen Jan 2013 #134

That's the big one for me. The neglect to cut military spending is plethoro Jan 2013 #146

No spending cuts on anything, but the squestor for defense is still there grantcart Jan 2013 #152

I have not seen that, do you have a link? grahamhgreen Jan 2013 #179

i usually pore over DU and read so much every day barbtries Jan 2013 #138

You are so spot on brush Jan 2013 #141

Same Shit, Different Day WiffenPoof Jan 2013 #151

+ a million quinnox Jan 2013 #168

Exactly! WiffenPoof Jan 2013 #172

And you better vote next year for the DINOs, or it's all your fault! Doctor_J Jan 2013 #202

I saw you complaining about the same thing yesterday creeksneakers2 Jan 2013 #249

MUAHAHAHA Doctor_J Jan 2013 #306

CORRECT Skittles Jan 2013 #204

The good ol' days of 2010? Barack_America Jan 2013 #210

I am always amused by the whining about "name calling" from those who can't Number23 Jan 2013 #225

+1000000000000 dionysus Jan 2013 #326

It's not what I would have wanted either. DissidentVoice Jan 2013 #156

+ 1 billion - no flame from me! abbeyco Jan 2013 #157

I agree with you. Many DUers are naive about the political process. Politicub Jan 2013 #160

I think this deal was Senate Republicans washing their hands of House R's. Barack_America Jan 2013 #169

Yes!! And hopefully the new congress will be Politicub Jan 2013 #314

Agree get the red out Jan 2013 #162

Yes. elleng Jan 2013 #166

my my, another "lefty fringe", blah blah,blah post stupidicus Jan 2013 #171

Way to think more than two minutes into the future. aandegoons Jan 2013 #173

Hell Eisenhower would have been considered ''extremist left'' these days. YOHABLO Jan 2013 #176

We have no idea how to deal with leadership. We are great at opposition. Buzz Clik Jan 2013 #178

It's really kind of amusing, I'm one of the harsher Obama critics here although I don't do OPs much Fumesucker Jan 2013 #197

COMPROMISE raindaddy Jan 2013 #180

Not too bad a deal JEB Jan 2013 #181

I agree that DU has gone over a cliff... ReRe Jan 2013 #185

+1 Barack_America Jan 2013 #186

"We're all Democrats, are we not?" CheapShotArtist Jan 2013 #254

I know... ReRe Jan 2013 #317

People are mostly going to focus on the payroll tax hike. alarimer Jan 2013 #191

Payroll tax holiday ends ==> "OBAMA RAISED MY TAXES!!!1!1!!1!" bullwinkle428 Jan 2013 #232

yeah... Reich to the contrary, $400k is okay paulkienitz Jan 2013 #194

I see I got banned LW1977 Jan 2013 #203

True that! DrewFlorida Jan 2013 #209

The $400,000 cap is not a problem to me. JDPriestly Jan 2013 #214

No flames here. I get how it works. We came out pretty good. Care Acutely Jan 2013 #218

TELL IT. Appreciation threads for blatant "with a capital B" trolls Number23 Jan 2013 #219

Wow...every 14 seconds??? WiffenPoof Jan 2013 #226

Actually, it sounds to me that there are plenty of people on this board who fit the profile Number23 Jan 2013 #228

Had a huge argument with Dad and brother who consider the president weak and a Liberal_Stalwart71 Jan 2013 #224

I Wish I could Buy In Like That colsohlibgal Jan 2013 #233

+1 nt ProudProgressiveNow Jan 2013 #234

Wow! I just joined a week ago Claybrains Jan 2013 #235

don't leave, most of DU is really great shireen Jan 2013 #239

Not going anywhere Claybrains Jan 2013 #246

DU is doing just fine, most of the time shireen Jan 2013 #236

What it amounts to JReed Jan 2013 #238

Thank you. nt woo me with science Jan 2013 #270

$1,000 less per year take home for my family yet... SHRED Jan 2013 #244

Many here agree with you! October Jan 2013 #251

I'm tired of posts like this MFrohike Jan 2013 #252

After four years of total, intransigent obstruction by the GOP King_Klonopin Jan 2013 #258

That clique would express only tepid support of the President if he... Sen. Walter Sobchak Jan 2013 #259

You nailed it. ENOUGH of the diatribes of the TeaLeftistNonReality wing. RBInMaine Jan 2013 #262

You are correct, what I have noticed on this site is that oldbanjo Jan 2013 #263

Lock step Jim Warren Jan 2013 #265

what lockstep? cali Jan 2013 #268

Artist Jim Warren ? Trajan Jan 2013 #271

Been called that Jim Warren Jan 2013 #272

This message was self-deleted by its author Trajan Jan 2013 #276

I agree with the OP completely Shilo Jan 2013 #267

Not many lefties left. aandegoons Jan 2013 #269

We have a lot of DLC'rs and PNAC'rs who don't know the difference between harun Jan 2013 #274

FDR and the New Deal are the touch point of the Democratic party. If you cannot own that you Ford_Prefect Jan 2013 #275

And President Obama is about taking care of the whole of America graham4anything Jan 2013 #280

+1 leftstreet Jan 2013 #303

I've realized that Democrats need both Union Scribe Jan 2013 #281

Compromise mgardener Jan 2013 #284

I just joined this site a few days ago timesamillion Jan 2013 #286

Not a flame (hopefully) EuroStyleSocialist Jan 2013 #292

What he said! Ford_Prefect Jan 2013 #295

K & R Scurrilous Jan 2013 #294

No flames from me. I am SICK of the whining rivegauche Jan 2013 #296

Yup ismnotwasm Jan 2013 #297

When the deal was announced and WeekendWarrior Jan 2013 #300

Yep. Phentex Jan 2013 #304

Okay. LWolf Jan 2013 #305

Don't be so hard own your DU sisters and brothers HoosierRadical Jan 2013 #307

When you read between the lines, the only criticism is "Not enough of the people we wanted taxed got stevenleser Jan 2013 #308

Those Outraged Have Almost Certainly Never Negotiated Anything of Significance in Their Entire Lives Skraxx Jan 2013 #309

Excellent, excellent, excellent...sorry I read this after so many responses... George II Jan 2013 #310

Post removed Post removed Jan 2013 #320

Harry Reid Threw Obama Fiscal Cliff Proposal Into Burning Fireplace stonecutter357 Jan 2013 #322

Post removed Post removed Jan 2013 #328

Excellent post Bobbie Jo Jan 2013 #323

30 years later, Detroit is still finding reality? saidsimplesimon Jan 2013 #324

It's puzzling; "Leftie" rhetoric reads like iisolation is more important that any degree of success. patrice Jan 2013 #325

You are a stronger person then me. NightOwwl Jan 2013 #331

Its not a tax hike, its a massive tax cut... shaayecanaan Jan 2013 #333

As the recs tell you, you are wrong. Nothing wrong with DU. Rex Jan 2013 #335