General Discussion

BainsBane

(57,785 posts)

152. no, I did not

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 09:35 AM

Jan 2013

Most gun owners favor reform. I said as much, and the poll I linked to shows as much. But those who refuse to consider any reform are another matter.

As for insults, I have never seen such a group of thin skinned people as gun proponents. What insult do you assert I made? If you are among those people who refuse any type of gun reform, by all means, consider yourself insulted (frankly, I could not come up with words sufficient to describe my contempt for such people.) If not, there is no reason you should be offended. It is you who called the other poster an extremist. I merely pointed out that pro-gun control views are extremely popular in the US right now and opposition to gun control exists on the extreme of public opinion. Those are facts.

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Mother shoots home intruder...after he cornered her in attic with her twins, 9 [View all] Skip Intro Jan 2013 OP

Amazing, she was able to do it with 6 shots, and no 30 round clips or bushmaster 223. Warren DeMontague Jan 2013 #1

Does the NRA pay you post such inflamitory drivel? hack89 Jan 2013 #2

Must have hit a nerve, huh. Warren DeMontague Jan 2013 #9

When gun control fails one more time hack89 Jan 2013 #16

No, Im saying that no one needs a fucking bushmaster 223 to hunt or for self defense. Warren DeMontague Jan 2013 #18

Please stop calling it.. sendero Jan 2013 #29

Bushmaster is the brand. And just as im not interested in "learning more" about the shit in my sewer Warren DeMontague Jan 2013 #37

Yes.. sendero Jan 2013 #41

I'm not wobbly. The story confirms what I've said; no one needs a "fucking AR-15-- that's the name" Warren DeMontague Jan 2013 #48

+10 nilram Jan 2013 #112

good thoughrt Atticeman Jan 2013 #123

When the costs to society far outweigh mikeysnot Jan 2013 #195

Did any of those victims have guns? marshall Jan 2013 #269

Ignorance is Strength cthulu2016 Jan 2013 #43

I know exactly what I'm talking about. Bushmaster is the brand. Warren DeMontague Jan 2013 #49

Stop it! You're hurting the guns feelings! neverforget Jan 2013 #53

What's That: The NRA's Motto? It Ought To Be. (nt) Paladin Jan 2013 #211

That's odd, you were an expert on home defense just a few minutes before. friendly_iconoclast Jan 2013 #78

quack quack quack Warren DeMontague Jan 2013 #98

Yep just another example guardian Jan 2013 #95

I'm sure some people do want to ban all guns. Warren DeMontague Jan 2013 #99

We can agree to disagree about what should be banned. guardian Jan 2013 #106

My semi-facetious point was ridiculing that odd, um, ...anxiety on the part of some gun owners Warren DeMontague Jan 2013 #113

An AWB will not make America safer hack89 Jan 2013 #149

If it won't have any impact, why is there such a flappy-armed freakout over the prospect of it? Warren DeMontague Jan 2013 #198

I have never been concerned about losing my rifles hack89 Jan 2013 #219

quack quack quack Warren DeMontague Jan 2013 #242

Pathetic. hack89 Jan 2013 #246

Thats all you see, huh. Its all about you. Warren DeMontague Jan 2013 #257

I see you smearing every legal gun owner with the blood of innocents hack89 Jan 2013 #271

Oh, yes, the "Culture War" Warren DeMontague Jan 2013 #273

The reasons I don't oppose the AWB should give you pause. hack89 Jan 2013 #283

Its a start. Warren DeMontague Jan 2013 #284

That is nonsense and you know it. hack89 Jan 2013 #285

It will also be the end for another decade or.so hack89 Jan 2013 #287

When ten gun killings tip the scale of one home protection per day, legal gun owners are complicit ancianita Jan 2013 #292

OK. nt hack89 Jan 2013 #295

Does it fucking matter, so long as you fucking know what the fuck he's fucking talking about? Scootaloo Jan 2013 #128

get a new talking point BainsBane Jan 2013 #132

What if there had been three intruders? ImSober Jan 2013 #97

and what if the THREE HOME INVADERS had been DRIVING A TANK? What THEN????!?!?!??! Warren DeMontague Jan 2013 #104

There was a story in which a mother put out a kitchen fire with a dish towel. AnotherMcIntosh Jan 2013 #178

So there should be no limits at all on the level of weaponry available for home "defense" Warren DeMontague Jan 2013 #197

The "no-limits" meme is a creation of the anti-gunners for straw-man purposes. AnotherMcIntosh Jan 2013 #199

Do you like Bob Dylan? Warren DeMontague Jan 2013 #203

Bob Dylan never used such vulgarities to make his point. AnotherMcIntosh Jan 2013 #215

No. The "no-limits" meme was invented by the "well regulated militia" & "shall not be infringed" ancianita Jan 2013 #293

Do you have even a link to that, even a single link? Or did you just make that up? AnotherMcIntosh Jan 2013 #297

That's just an M47 Dragon Missile Launcher tube. tradecenter Jan 2013 #202

Technically, that's a picture of a dragon missile launcher tube, and not the launcher tube itself. Warren DeMontague Jan 2013 #205

I don't understand what you're saying here. tradecenter Jan 2013 #208

I'm saying it's a picture of the thing, not the thing itself. Warren DeMontague Jan 2013 #209

Ok, I get it now. tradecenter Jan 2013 #213

LOL! lunatica Jan 2013 #168

Try to put a bullet in each invader's leg. musical_soul Jan 2013 #296

Not a good idea christx30 Jan 2013 #303

what you request isn't reasonable neighbor Jan 2013 #121

Then make a stronger ban. Make a ban with penalties for not just sale, but possession. Warren DeMontague Jan 2013 #122

You can wish for whaterver you want, but a new ban isn't happening, at least for 2 years Travis_0004 Jan 2013 #142

There will be no new legislation on guns Puzzledtraveller Jan 2013 #160

If the banksters and other members of the super-rich want it, such legislation will be adopted. AnotherMcIntosh Jan 2013 #180

it's part of TEH PLOT, MAN! ALEX JONES SAYS SO! Warren DeMontague Jan 2013 #206

Is he a gun-controller? AnotherMcIntosh Jan 2013 #218

A new ban with penalties for possession isn't realistic or reasonable either neighbor Jan 2013 #172

Fine, then limit the rate of fire. Warren DeMontague Jan 2013 #207

Not sure how you could reliably make that a possibility. neighbor Jan 2013 #241

Oh no! Not the 1800s! Warren DeMontague Jan 2013 #243

Can we have semi-automatic pistols? hack89 Jan 2013 #134

You can be competitive target shooters with non-semi-automatic weapons muriel_volestrangler Jan 2013 #141

Sorry but you are not going to ban anything hack89 Jan 2013 #146

Again, you show what is wrong with DU and the USA muriel_volestrangler Jan 2013 #170

LOL!! Puzzledtraveller Jan 2013 #171

That would be the patriotic thing to say, wouldn't it? muriel_volestrangler Jan 2013 #179

No - I am saying Senator Feinstein is not going to ban anything hack89 Jan 2013 #173

Don't bother clarifying your statement, to them you have a sickness Puzzledtraveller Jan 2013 #174

You're the only person to mention Feinstein or her proposal in this thread muriel_volestrangler Jan 2013 #182

No problem with a limit on mag size hack89 Jan 2013 #187

Because a ban would make people a bit safer muriel_volestrangler Jan 2013 #191

Doing nothing will save lives. hack89 Jan 2013 #220

How about banning swimming pools? jtb33 Jan 2013 #300

Not only disappoint... Puha Ekapi Jan 2013 #193

Perhaps you should contact Vice President Biden directly & tell him not to "waste his time" Warren DeMontague Jan 2013 #214

He would let me keep my rifles. Just like Senator Feinstein. hack89 Jan 2013 #223

Glad to hear you won't have problem with the multiple agenda items they're working on then Warren DeMontague Jan 2013 #245

The AWB will not be retroactive. hack89 Jan 2013 #248

This Biden? SIBIndi Jan 2013 #256

how do you run 3 gun without it? generalhh Jan 2013 #153

You see? You're defending deaths on the basis that you like the format of one competition muriel_volestrangler Jan 2013 #169

Exactly greytdemocrat Jan 2013 #154

This message was self-deleted by its author AnotherMcIntosh Jan 2013 #176

Excellent Username, Larrymoe Curlyshemp Jan 2013 #69

Welcome to DU. nt hack89 Jan 2013 #135

The Clinton era assault weapons ban was perfectly reasonable ProudToBeBlueInRhody Jan 2013 #74

Guns like this were legal under the AWB hack89 Jan 2013 #133

I understand overthehillvet Jan 2013 #103

how is he an extremist BainsBane Jan 2013 #131

Look what happened in Illinois hack89 Jan 2013 #136

not especially BainsBane Jan 2013 #139

A black and white cartoonish view of gun owners is not mainstream hack89 Jan 2013 #147

no, I did not BainsBane Jan 2013 #152

any reform or just your reforms? generalhh Jan 2013 #157

I provided a link to a poll BainsBane Jan 2013 #162

I favor reform - I just don't go as far as you do. hack89 Jan 2013 #164

My heart bleeds BainsBane Jan 2013 #251

I support all three proposals you mention hack89 Jan 2013 #254

Really? kbworkman Jan 2013 #161

There were also false reports claiming that he wore a bullet-proof vest. AnotherMcIntosh Jan 2013 #216

They are just back at their "Hooray people are shooting each other" posts. Walk away Jan 2013 #62

This is what is wrong with DU: you are defending 30 round clips and the Bushmaster muriel_volestrangler Jan 2013 #144

No - this is what is wrong with DU hack89 Jan 2013 #148

Well, your concern for those potential victims is touching. Skip Intro Jan 2013 #4

Huh? Warren DeMontague Jan 2013 #12

In before the feeble self alert! morningfog Jan 2013 #66

I like cjeekdgg Capt. Obvious Jan 2013 #155

Good point. wyldwolf Jan 2013 #5

Whenever the gun nuts say that you're not helping your own cause, you're helping your own cause alcibiades_mystery Jan 2013 #30

Yeah. And "don't bother, because there is no point, itll never get anywhere." Warren DeMontague Jan 2013 #33

or you need to know every single thing about every car JI7 Jan 2013 #58

You don't need to know the gear ratios... Coyote_Tan Jan 2013 #87

I'm sure it's possible to write a ban that includes the AR-15 & high capacity magazines. Warren DeMontague Jan 2013 #102

That's actually an M4 carbine. Dr_Scholl Jan 2013 #124

ROFL rightsideout Jan 2013 #75

I can't stop laughing at this. I just had to paste it into a FaceBook discussion about guns. ROFL. rightsideout Jan 2013 #86

She emptied the gun. krispos42 Jan 2013 #100

I think it's probably reasonable to assume she's got two hands. Warren DeMontague Jan 2013 #101

Not quite a rugby team.... wercal Jan 2013 #110

Lucky for her he didn't have an accomplice. wercal Jan 2013 #107

OK try this one overthehillvet Jan 2013 #109

He could've brought a zombie crew with him, that would justify 1000 rounds of ammo!! uponit7771 Jan 2013 #125

Tonya Thomas shot her kids 18 times bowens43 Jan 2013 #3

She couldn't have used anything else? Undismayed Jan 2013 #17

There sure seem to be a lot of tools worthy of blame these days. Warren DeMontague Jan 2013 #24

Did the gun protect that other woman and her children by itself? Ikonoklast Jan 2013 #25

No tool will guarantee your safety. Well, except maybe some sort of robotic gun turret. Undismayed Jan 2013 #28

A firearm is not a tool, no matter how many times that false equivalency gets used. Ikonoklast Jan 2013 #40

Since all tools are "ball-peen"(sic) hammers.. pipoman Jan 2013 #47

Use screwdriver if you want. Ikonoklast Jan 2013 #52

Disregard for the actual meaning of words noted and pointed out..n/t pipoman Jan 2013 #57

She didn't use anything else, did she? n/t Ed Suspicious Jan 2013 #91

Right, but in any situation where someone did use something else, Undismayed Jan 2013 #96

Well what do you suggest.. sendero Jan 2013 #32

If you are going to ask that question.... ProudToBeBlueInRhody Jan 2013 #84

I'm not sure what you're getting at... neighbor Jan 2013 #117

Elzbieta Plackowska stabbed her son 100 times and another child 50 Marengo Jan 2013 #275

Moral of the story: Keep your guns at home. JaneyVee Jan 2013 #6

Or on you former-republican Jan 2013 #8

At home. JaneyVee Jan 2013 #10

Nope, on me. Lizzie Poppet Jan 2013 #27

Get pepper spray or a taser if you're going out. JaneyVee Jan 2013 #60

Out? OUT? It's SCARRRRY OUT THERE!!!!!! SCARY! IM SKEEEERED! Warren DeMontague Jan 2013 #67

Is she a terrorist former-republican Jan 2013 #7

No, she defended her home with a revolver. Warren DeMontague Jan 2013 #15

It doesn't matter to me what kind of firearm she used former-republican Jan 2013 #19

I am, too. Warren DeMontague Jan 2013 #21

speedloader sleestak smile Jan 2013 #44

Because you can make any gun operate like a fully automatic rifle Lordquinton Jan 2013 #71

He carried three guns neighbor Jan 2013 #115

Yet he killed those kids with the AR-15. Warren DeMontague Jan 2013 #119

That's right, he shot around 20 children with a rifle. neighbor Jan 2013 #249

"You people"? ...Um, Whoops. Warren DeMontague Jan 2013 #258

Kudos to that lady. I would have done the same. n/t RebelOne Jan 2013 #286

Good thing there wasn't two of them, home invasions are normally two or more former-republican Jan 2013 #20

Just think, if she'd been able to keep a shoulder fired missile in her attic. Warren DeMontague Jan 2013 #22

It's hard for you to defend your previous post former-republican Jan 2013 #23

So your suggestion is that a bushmaster 223 is necessary to protect against home invasions Warren DeMontague Jan 2013 #26

Have you ever had to fire a weapon under stress before to save a life or end one ? former-republican Jan 2013 #34

Maybe they should hire mrs. Herman. Warren DeMontague Jan 2013 #39

I was asking you because you gave your expert opinion former-republican Jan 2013 #42

And I'm asking if people have zero fucking shame Warren DeMontague Jan 2013 #46

Like Zimmerman did? when he coward style shot an innocent man to death just to watch him die? graham4anything Jan 2013 #127

so when the life of your children and family is at stake, choose the least effective weapon? sleestak smile Jan 2013 #45

Then why shouldn't people be allowed to own nuclear-tipped ICBMs? Warren DeMontague Jan 2013 #50

The guys in this video needed one. Undismayed Jan 2013 #31

the LA Riots ? seriously ? JI7 Jan 2013 #38

Protip: If you want someone to understand you, Undismayed Jan 2013 #73

Can't figure out? Smartless much? Ed Suspicious Jan 2013 #92

Update from our local Atlanta TV news station RebelOne Jan 2013 #11

good thing this guy wasn't trying to alert the family that the house was on fire librechik Jan 2013 #13

If you read the article, clearly he wasn't being friendly ProudToBeBlueInRhody Jan 2013 #83

Good for her. Brickbat Jan 2013 #14

If only she'd been on a published list of registered gun owners... Orrex Jan 2013 #35

That woman would be alive today if she had a .223 Bushmaster with a 20-30 round magazine. Kaleva Jan 2013 #36

Thank you. Warren DeMontague Jan 2013 #51

No evidence has ever been presented, as far as I know, that hi cap mags are needed for self defense Kaleva Jan 2013 #63

Yeah. Warren DeMontague Jan 2013 #65

*Do* alert the Department of Needs about your insight... friendly_iconoclast Jan 2013 #77

It is generally considered to be wise to do some research when deciding what weapons.. Kaleva Jan 2013 #111

OK. So if we agree to allow that weapon for home defense, can we ban semiautomatics? (nt) Nye Bevan Jan 2013 #54

Oh good! Gungeon posts in GD! All hail the sacred gun! morningfog Jan 2013 #55

*** Warren DeMontague Jan 2013 #64

I posted this... LP2K12 Jan 2013 #151

Why is this any less appropriate than the countless other gun posts in GD? Lizzie Poppet Jan 2013 #186

This is not big news, not a national story and has nothing to do with pending legislation. morningfog Jan 2013 #196

i'm glad she was able to save herself and her family. samsingh Jan 2013 #56

Proving once again - you don't need a semi-auto assault rifle with a 30 round clip jpak Jan 2013 #59

A rarity treestar Jan 2013 #61

Yeah, because things like mass shootings are the norm. eliters Jan 2013 #81

angry much? crmarshall Jan 2013 #68

Sadly you were just banned as a troll, so you may never know. Robb Jan 2013 #72

Easy. There would not have been one in his home if the Rs had not eliminated the ban. Coyotl Jan 2013 #94

I agree uncommonCents Jan 2013 #70

Where does it say that the intruder died? SoCalNative Jan 2013 #79

Something is wrong with this story. Warren Stupidity Jan 2013 #76

Perhaps his intent sarisataka Jan 2013 #88

Not all crooks are smart.... ProudToBeBlueInRhody Jan 2013 #89

Because a safe is just about never in an attic? Warren Stupidity Jan 2013 #143

Burglars generally are, JoeyT Jan 2013 #118

Right. And yet the linked story claims "burglar". That was my point. Warren Stupidity Jan 2013 #145

Less of a burglar and more of a home invader... Coyote_Tan Jan 2013 #129

Ok, but "home invader" is anyone who breaks into a home. Warren Stupidity Jan 2013 #137

if there is a 3 strike law and you already have 2 generalhh Jan 2013 #166

My friend got robbed several years ago. peace13 Jan 2013 #175

My frist thought as well. nt Javaman Jan 2013 #231

Also, the first thing she did was call her husband NOT 911. nt Iris Jan 2013 #261

200 "in defense" gun deaths per year vs 30,000 total gun deaths per year. No thank you. stevenleser Jan 2013 #80

+ hay rick Jan 2013 #85

The vast majority of defensive gun uses involve no death. LAGC Jan 2013 #105

The stats are in on that too. People are 4-6 times more likely to use their gun stevenleser Jan 2013 #140

Most of those are suicides and with suicides at often higher rates in strong gun control countries TheKentuckian Jan 2013 #150

Your statistic doesn't take into account "in defense without a death". realism101 Jan 2013 #239

Legally owned guns are 4-6 times more likely to be used to intimidate or threaten noncriminals stevenleser Jan 2013 #240

The .38 is just too weak to be really useful FarCenter Jan 2013 #82

It has done well for over a century sarisataka Jan 2013 #90

Not that I give a flying fuck, but wasn't a .38 a standard issue police weapon for a long time? n/t Ed Suspicious Jan 2013 #93

Yes, before PCP. AnotherMcIntosh Jan 2013 #108

Most police used .357 magnum service revolvers prior to adoption of semi-automatics. FarCenter Jan 2013 #212

"in case the perp was wearing body armor" More DU gun porn fantasies muriel_volestrangler Jan 2013 #185

The perp could have been a car that transforms into a giant robot! Warren DeMontague Jan 2013 #262

that is exactly why I have a gun MFM008 Jan 2013 #114

I bet this criminal won't want to break into another home again. Good shooting. Nt jal777 Jan 2013 #116

Shot 5 times in the face and neck and he's expected to survive? Prometheus Bound Jan 2013 #120

Why didn't she pick up a cell phone and call police? graham4anything Jan 2013 #126

911 was called Yo_Mama Jan 2013 #158

The fact is that the police normally can't prevent an attack - lynne Jan 2013 #163

On Thursday night a S. Fulton woman was shot Yo_Mama Jan 2013 #194

There is a small minority sarisataka Jan 2013 #200

Clearly she should have hid better ProudToBeBlueInRhody Jan 2013 #264

What are you saying? ecstatic Jan 2013 #247

Ignore that poster ProudToBeBlueInRhody Jan 2013 #263

and when she ran out of bullets, what about the six others with the one? graham4anything Jan 2013 #272

If the house was on fire, I assume someone would yell FIRE! ProudToBeBlueInRhody Jan 2013 #278

she should have used a shoulder to air missle graham4anything Jan 2013 #279

I'm sure you are glad she and her kids are safe ProudToBeBlueInRhody Jan 2013 #280

Back blast sarisataka Jan 2013 #288

I live near where this happened and it was a big discussion on a neighborhood page Iris Jan 2013 #260

OH lovely gun porn in GD aandegoons Jan 2013 #130

Had to be horrifying for both her and her children - lynne Jan 2013 #138

I love it, the DU gun drama, it's fascinating Puzzledtraveller Jan 2013 #156

Interesting that the perp wasn't armed. Whovian Jan 2013 #159

I would consider a crowbar as being armed - lynne Jan 2013 #165

As well as a spoon or a toothpick. Whovian Jan 2013 #167

Just because he entered without that intention... Lizzie Poppet Jan 2013 #184

Did he have the crowbar in the attic? muriel_volestrangler Jan 2013 #183

She knew he had access to a crowbar as that's how he entered the house - lynne Jan 2013 #188

it matters for whether your imagination is going too far muriel_volestrangler Jan 2013 #192

Why else does someone break into your hosue obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #222

No, it's not. Theft is not violent. muriel_volestrangler Jan 2013 #228

Invading someone's home is violent obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #232

What about the idea of forcing your way into someone's house? ProudToBeBlueInRhody Jan 2013 #266

I have to disagree with that. noamnety Jan 2013 #217

He had no reason to think there were people in the attic; many people hide valuables there muriel_volestrangler Jan 2013 #229

Splitting hairs overthehillvet Jan 2013 #267

Do you post in threads regarding rape.... ProudToBeBlueInRhody Jan 2013 #281

I'd condemn posters who say women ought to be afraid of being alone in a lift with a man muriel_volestrangler Jan 2013 #282

He wasa home invader obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #221

Let's start a new thread every time a woman is killed by a domestic partner using a handgun Jeff In Milwaukee Jan 2013 #177

yup obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #224

Indeed. Thanks for that. PeaceNikki Jan 2013 #277

Sounds fishy to me HockeyMom Jan 2013 #181

Look at the house Lurker Deluxe Jan 2013 #227

From the aerial picture sarisataka Jan 2013 #230

She was upstairs with her kids when he broke in obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #234

She was in an upstairs bedroom when he tried to break in obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #233

By WHOSE standards? HockeyMom Jan 2013 #250

She should have signed the deed to the house over to the burgler on the way out too ProudToBeBlueInRhody Jan 2013 #265

got to call BS on this one overthehillvet Jan 2013 #268

OK, here's a nutty question: JanMichael Jan 2013 #189

she and the kids were upstairs obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #235

The poor guy was probably just going to ask her where the bread was kept so he could make a sandwich slackmaster Jan 2013 #190

This isn't a laughing matter... Skip Intro Jan 2013 #236

another home invasion in georgia where the woman ran and hid unarmed and was still shoot generalhh Jan 2013 #201

And all she needed was a .38 revolver. I have chased off an intruder appleannie1 Jan 2013 #204

There's nothing like the sound of a 12 gauge being racked. tradecenter Jan 2013 #210

Cocking a shotgun disuaded him? But we've been told that the only purpose for guns is to kill people AnotherMcIntosh Jan 2013 #226

He probably thought that was my intention. He did not stick around long enough to appleannie1 Jan 2013 #253

There is no justification to own or use a gun for any reason! L0oniX Jan 2013 #225

I'd do my best to advertise the warm and cuddly side of my sacred cow too... LanternWaste Jan 2013 #237

Yeah, it seems the memo went out that 2 weeks is long enough to grit the teeth & stay quiet Warren DeMontague Jan 2013 #244

You break into my home reformedrethug Jan 2013 #238

Please, Skinner, PLEASE get this crap outa GD and back to the Gungeon where it belongs. Iggo Jan 2013 #252

SECONDED! Warren DeMontague Jan 2013 #259

I like a good self defense story as much as the next guy, but... Glassunion Jan 2013 #255

Unrec. The only reason to hawk this story is to counter Newtown. hay rick Jan 2013 #270

That's what debate is marshall Jan 2013 #274

In other news - Island Blue Jan 2013 #276

That town needs some education marshall Jan 2013 #289

pumping 6 rounds into an unarmed guy should be a crime- nothing to be proud of farminator3000 Jan 2013 #290

You're kidding right? Skip Intro Jan 2013 #291

no, i'm totally serious. so is shooting soneone who doesn't even have a gun. so is racism. farminator3000 Jan 2013 #299

Me too. musical_soul Jan 2013 #294

Fine by me! nt cecilfirefox Jan 2013 #298

THIS is what guns are good for. NOT parading around town showing off and intimidating people you kestrel91316 Jan 2013 #301

Could have ended badly brandonk Jan 2013 #302

I checked the original article: things that make you go hmm Lydia Leftcoast Jan 2013 #304