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Z_I_Peevey

(2,783 posts)

55. K&R

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 12:28 PM

Jan 2013

Carol Gilligan and David A.J. Richards in their important work "The Deepening Darkness: Patriarchy, Resistance and Democracy's Future" pinpoint exactly the thing that is so sadly in evidence in this thread: an erroneous and misplaced idea of "honor" as it relates to men and their view of women in general, and the specific women in their lives.

If we can see patriarchy for all that it implies, we can rid ourselves of it, and emerge into a new era of equality. But first we have to see it as it truly exists. And that includes the societal benefits of patriarchy and rape culture that extend to all men. I would hope that men of good will could look past their own personal senses of wounded honor, and consider what the DU women in this thread are showing them.

I ask the question that Gilligan and Richards pose at the conclusion of their excellent book: What is it, exactly, that is so threatening about equality?

http://www.amazon.com/Deepening-Darkness-Patriarchy-Resistance-Democracys/dp/B007MXFCZQ

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This message was self-deleted by its author [View all] seabeyond Jan 2013 OP

�Most men fear getting laughed at or humiliated by a romantic prospect while most women fear Nye Bevan Jan 2013 #1

i never thought to share with the men and boys in my life, our different perspectives. seabeyond Jan 2013 #3

+1 LiberalLoner Jan 2013 #76

Agree: Gavin de Becker's book is great. n/t Mimosa Jan 2013 #4

I wonder if nice guys have any idea how badly some men take rejection... because I've never bettyellen Jan 2013 #98

Same experience for sure gollygee Jan 2013 #255

EXCELLENT OP! and Link. Mimosa Jan 2013 #2

I think it was Susan Brownmiller who said, Brigid Jan 2013 #5

wow. that is a keeper. thank you. nt seabeyond Jan 2013 #6

that was the quote, thanks. niyad Jan 2013 #8

Sorry, but I think that's a really stupid statement. Nye Bevan Jan 2013 #10

it is really important i think seabeyond Jan 2013 #12

Well she shouldn't have said "ALL men" benefit from rape, in the quote. Nye Bevan Jan 2013 #14

The quote is accurate. All men, as a class, benefit. nt redqueen Jan 2013 #24

All men benefit from rape........ Nye Bevan Jan 2013 #25

Yes, *as a class*. redqueen Jan 2013 #39

No... opiate69 Jan 2013 #229

+1. all men don't benefit from rape, & all whites don't benefit from racism. southern whites, HiPointDem Jan 2013 #241

Yes, as a class. LisaLynne Jan 2013 #42

I agree with you and I am caucasian as well. n/t whathehell Jan 2013 #155

why is it so easy for us white women to acknowledge and see the privilege and not feel seabeyond Jan 2013 #157

" Because we see it in male privilege is my guess, allowing us a two way view and also whathehell Jan 2013 #244

that was a surprise to me, but a lesson learned. you are right. nt seabeyond Jan 2013 #246

Just like all women benefit from Hypergamy. Pretty little lies. NT galileoreloaded Jan 2013 #75

Exactly the way all caucasians benefit from institutionalized racism. TygrBright Jan 2013 #92

for example, a parent of a daughter indirectly benefits from real world dangers to girls BlancheSplanchnik Jan 2013 #99

I would say that a little differently ... 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2013 #124

exactly! it reinforces the gender roles.. and parents do find it useful- expecting daughters to be bettyellen Jan 2013 #142

thanks 1StrongBlackMan--I was having a lot of trouble articulating my thoughts there! BlancheSplanchnik Jan 2013 #147

it's not that you want or personally enjoy the "benefit" yourself. but that society as it is now, bettyellen Jan 2013 #100

Look at the broader picture.... Sekhmets Daughter Jan 2013 #118

It's very difficult, I think, for individual men thucythucy Jan 2013 #233

In the same way that you benefit from the murder of Iraqi children. Marr Jan 2013 #169

No. I thought it was only conservatives who preferred to remain in denial redqueen Jan 2013 #178

That war was about controlling oil. Marr Jan 2013 #222

Believing that requires supporting a rapist mindset. DirkGently Jan 2013 #207

Wow. nt redqueen Jan 2013 #210

wow is right or more... odd. i do not think i have ever heard it be argued that the oppressor seabeyond Jan 2013 #215

Do either of you have an actual reply? DirkGently Jan 2013 #219

yes, there are immediate rewards and the ultimate failure for us all. seabeyond Jan 2013 #223

So you're saying white people didn't benefit from apartheid? thucythucy Jan 2013 #234

it does benefit all men. and no, i do not mind my boys understanding this concept. i am proud that seabeyond Jan 2013 #26

All men benefitting from something doesn't mean all men want to benefit from it gollygee Jan 2013 #29

I never realized when I'm worrying about my daughter when she's out with her friends Nye Bevan Jan 2013 #30

It isn't the best place for denying the existence of privilege, that's correct gollygee Jan 2013 #31

you make me sad nye. i do not get why some men are struggling so hard to hold onto something seabeyond Jan 2013 #37

I am possibly the least racist person in the world. But I still benefit from racism. ieoeja Jan 2013 #53

There's the fallacy. I agree that rape puts women on an uneven footing. Nye Bevan Jan 2013 #62

Maybe it would help to rephrase it. noamnety Jan 2013 #70

excellent. mroe good stuff. i like... lol. you are good. this isnt about them vs us. us vs them seabeyond Jan 2013 #79

very good. Insightful analysis. BlancheSplanchnik Jan 2013 #101

Personal example... So_Blue Jan 2013 #110

Good post, but "it's assumed that men will take care of us," raccoon Jan 2013 #122

I've met men and women who hew to that assumption, but avoid them because I know it's unrealistic. bettyellen Jan 2013 #135

I might be overstating it noamnety Jan 2013 #140

Precisely. Oppression does not benefit the oppressor. DirkGently Jan 2013 #209

"Oppression stems from fear of the oppressed group." thucythucy Jan 2013 #237

Can you see that all white people benefit from white privelige? duhneece Jan 2013 #81

You don't think you'd benefit more from an equal society? DirkGently Jan 2013 #221

Yes, I believe I would benefit from a more just and equal society duhneece Jan 2013 #251

Might I suggest ... 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2013 #132

Very well said. LisaLynne Jan 2013 #18

Exactly. nt redqueen Jan 2013 #28

+1 treestar Jan 2013 #44

+1,000,000 n/t 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2013 #134

That's not what the quote says, though. Dr. Strange Jan 2013 #20

every man benefits from the control and domination regardless of how opposed they are to it. seabeyond Jan 2013 #34

You're contradicting yourself. Dr. Strange Jan 2013 #50

have you looked at any issue as a whole (macro), seen how it effected you as an individual (micro) seabeyond Jan 2013 #52

Of course. Dr. Strange Jan 2013 #63

read his reply. he is taking it that it means all men condone rape. have ownership of rape. seabeyond Jan 2013 #65

I did read his reply, and yours too. Dr. Strange Jan 2013 #72

It is not about Nye (the micro) being PERSONALLY AT FAULT. MadrasT Jan 2013 #77

Exactly. Dr. Strange Jan 2013 #83

I don't see them as being contradictory gollygee Jan 2013 #78

I think a more accurate interpretation ... 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2013 #159

That's probably true. Dr. Strange Jan 2013 #164

ha ha. i got sooo fed up with guys asking to put their feelings first that over the course of 2-3 bettyellen Jan 2013 #205

Obama benefits the same way all men do. Women are put on unequal footing. bettyellen Jan 2013 #104

True, I wasn't discussing the OP. Dr. Strange Jan 2013 #109

I think it's a mistake women are making trying to assuage Mr Nye because they feel he bears no guilt bettyellen Jan 2013 #114

or the poster clearly understands what was being said but has a personal beef and is using seabeyond Jan 2013 #117

and that happens too frequently here too.... wanted to share an interesting blog with you bettyellen Jan 2013 #125

thanks. it looks really interesting. LOVE all the insight. seabeyond Jan 2013 #128

I think you'll love CaptA's voice as I do, some cool memes in there. Great comments too. bettyellen Jan 2013 #131

i fall in love easily... just sayin'. nt seabeyond Jan 2013 #138

there's some great advice in there, and she moderates enough to remove the vast majority bettyellen Jan 2013 #139

that was an amazingly good read! thanks! bench scientist Jan 2013 #212

glad you liked it! some amazing voices there.... I give her credit for moderating well. bettyellen Jan 2013 #213

well thanks for the find bench scientist Jan 2013 #239

Ohhhh ... 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2013 #121

lol seabeyond Jan 2013 #123

I'm just as confused. Earth_First Jan 2013 #15

Yep- an OP that we can all unite around, then a few posts later we get "all men benefit from rape". Nye Bevan Jan 2013 #22

Could I posit that it might be an issue of semantics? kag Jan 2013 #91

is there some sort of limit on how much discussion can be had of such an important topic? niyad Jan 2013 #23

I don't get this "i'm personally offended and want to limit discussion" attitude. bettyellen Jan 2013 #111

always makes me wonder what kind of nerve has been struck. niyad Jan 2013 #218

i feel like it hits a little close to home. to hard to consider what it would be like w/out the bettyellen Jan 2013 #220

Just because our benefits are subtle doesn't mean they don't exist jeff47 Jan 2013 #46

And this is why the word "feminism" is a toxic label that most women run from LittleBlue Jan 2013 #148

"They can't really explain how rape benefits all men". except there are a number of examples and seabeyond Jan 2013 #151

You mean like the rental person LittleBlue Jan 2013 #153

it might be helpful to read the book before you dismiss her statement. niyad Jan 2013 #19

It doesn't apply the way you are thinking treestar Jan 2013 #33

OK, so I benefit from rape because its existence gives me more control over my daughters. Nye Bevan Jan 2013 #38

You're taking it personally treestar Jan 2013 #47

You're not aware that a lot of families like controlling their daughters? Seriously? bettyellen Jan 2013 #115

It was poor wording, but accurate. Dash87 Jan 2013 #67

Good one ismnotwasm Jan 2013 #136

Thank you! Very well said! smirkymonkey Jan 2013 #214

Well, call me thick, but can you explain to me how polly7 Jan 2013 #64

post 56 is very clear on an example. and there are others in this thread that give a clear example. seabeyond Jan 2013 #66

No, it's not. polly7 Jan 2013 #68

your interpretation of what the OP is saying is incorrect. i gave you an example seabeyond Jan 2013 #80

Yeah, I reject it it as complete bull*. polly7 Jan 2013 #87

ah... there is my insightful and kind polly. seabeyond Jan 2013 #88

What are you yammering about? polly7 Jan 2013 #89

You Mad, Sis? Tsiyu Jan 2013 #257

Not in any way, Sis. You mad? nt. polly7 Jan 2013 #258

Nah, I don't shake my fist at the truth Tsiyu Jan 2013 #260

Well I don't believe that the quote that all men polly7 Jan 2013 #261

If I compare myself to children of my generation Tsiyu Jan 2013 #263

I understand what benefits mean, and don't agree that rape of women polly7 Jan 2013 #264

lol Tsiyu Jan 2013 #266

Nor you me. polly7 Jan 2013 #267

Oy Tsiyu Jan 2013 #268

Yeah I know .... it's about as oy as polly7 Jan 2013 #272

Assigning blame and observing benefit are two wholly and separate concepts. LanternWaste Jan 2013 #126

Do I, as an adult benefit from the scourge of child abuse? polly7 Jan 2013 #143

Post 56 mentions how one small group of men within another small group of people EOTE Jan 2013 #84

Wow. I didn't mean to start a war here. Brigid Jan 2013 #74

I find it intriguing... lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #94

you've missed quite a few posts from dudes acknowledging this I guess. bettyellen Jan 2013 #137

Been there. Done that. lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #180

Squashed like a bug, eh? I can see why you'd not want to risk that again. bettyellen Jan 2013 #182

Everyone's entitled to their opinion. lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #189

is that a fight club reference, or are you just scared of taking on a man? bettyellen Jan 2013 #191

Do you consider men's words more intimidating somehow? lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #199

no, but I've noticed a lot of men do, LOL. something of a phenomena! and we agree on this: bettyellen Jan 2013 #201

Educate me. (Never mind. Found it in Reply #67) Iggo Jan 2013 #273

k and r--thank you for this excellent post. susan brownmiller said it pretty clearly in her book niyad Jan 2013 #7

brigid, above, quoted her. i had never heard this. very insightful seabeyond Jan 2013 #11

"against our will: men, women and rape" by susan brownmiller. niyad Jan 2013 #16

precisely... SemperEadem Jan 2013 #69

OMFG! HOW is that story not a NATIONAL OUTRAGE? (rhetorical, it is due to rape culture of course) redqueen Jan 2013 #107

because 82 year old women are not sexy enough for the news. fucking sad. bettyellen Jan 2013 #133

Holy crap! gollygee Jan 2013 #149

So spot on! werknotgoin2takeit Jan 2013 #224

Thank you for that. I am so tired of having to live the life you have described so eloquently. smirkymonkey Jan 2013 #274

Another thoughtful post! LisaLynne Jan 2013 #9

Rape is not about sex, it is about power and control. This needs to be understood in order for any teewrex Jan 2013 #13

Trash time. 99Forever Jan 2013 #17

I'm sorry you feel this way because .. LisaLynne Jan 2013 #21

I'm sorry you.. 99Forever Jan 2013 #35

Fine trash it. LisaLynne Jan 2013 #36

Thanks for your permission. 99Forever Jan 2013 #49

I missed the man bashing. Can you point it out for me? Because I just don't see it. n/t ieoeja Jan 2013 #58

Nope... 99Forever Jan 2013 #59

you didn't have to click on it and read it... SemperEadem Jan 2013 #202

Privilege in action- assuming we give a fuck about what threads you trash, LOL. bettyellen Jan 2013 #154

Arrogance in action. 99Forever Jan 2013 #193

Arrogance is coming in to piss on a conversation and add nothing. Look in the mirror dude. bettyellen Jan 2013 #194

someone's feeling diminished and argumentative SemperEadem Jan 2013 #203

Uh huh... 99Forever Jan 2013 #204

K&R MadrasT Jan 2013 #27

I don't think the OP made the case it set out to make: that ALL MEN benefit from rape. How? nt Romulox Jan 2013 #32

By keeping the unearned priveledge assigned to males. LisaLynne Jan 2013 #40

I follow the general concept, but I think you need to make the specific connection. Romulox Jan 2013 #41

The OP's premise is that having a culture where women can be made to fear being raped ... LisaLynne Jan 2013 #43

That's the part I think is hard to follow. Specifically, I don't think the case has been made. nt Romulox Jan 2013 #45

What's hard to follow about it? jeff47 Jan 2013 #51

you are doing a very good job explaining it. thank you. i was asked seabeyond Jan 2013 #54

The parking lot thing affected my education. noamnety Jan 2013 #61

Thank you jeff47 for being so articulate.... prairierose Jan 2013 #71

To expand on that thought werknotgoin2takeit Jan 2013 #86

+1000 and Welcome to DU! smirkymonkey Jan 2013 #216

You get it. Thanks for that. Hekate Jan 2013 #93

I see that too. werknotgoin2takeit Jan 2013 #225

The argument in the OP is that I, personally, passively benefit from "rape culture". Romulox Jan 2013 #95

the recurring mistake is thinking it's always either/ or... the dangerous person in the parking lot bettyellen Jan 2013 #144

The point is the actual benefits can be subtle, so they're easy to miss. jeff47 Jan 2013 #146

another subtle benefit- you are not going to get any nasty condescending attitude , labeled bettyellen Jan 2013 #156

trying to pull it up without going back to the thread... DAMAGED personalities. seabeyond Jan 2013 #158

you're not going to see all this condescending snark aimed at W Pitt... just like there is so little bettyellen Jan 2013 #168

you got that right. and yes... seabeyond Jan 2013 #172

Thanks! lunatica Jan 2013 #105

read the responses here again. all the answers you claim to seek are here. bettyellen Jan 2013 #119

I can think of examples from my life. noamnety Jan 2013 #56

very clear, precise example. thank you for sharing this. and thank you for adding the ironic. seabeyond Jan 2013 #57

You gave the example of combat being an "opportunity" lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #96

I think you missed my point. noamnety Jan 2013 #102

she clearly stated it left her at a professional disadvantage. how dare you negate everything she bettyellen Jan 2013 #106

It is difficult to defend the idea that being sent to a combat zone is a professional advantage. nt lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #188

not really, she stated it quite succinctly. lots of women would LOVE to serve, your feelings bettyellen Jan 2013 #190

thank you SemperEadem Jan 2013 #198

wow this resonates with me...as a woman, and a black person noiretextatique Jan 2013 #206

Don't get me wrong. I support equality, therefore I support women in combat. lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #208

i don't understand why anyone would want to go to combat, but people do, god help them. bettyellen Jan 2013 #211

Our military is a cesspool of racism, sexism, rape, hatred. Romulox Jan 2013 #97

Women going out more well may increase the risk of rape or any other crime treestar Jan 2013 #48

K&R Z_I_Peevey Jan 2013 #55

But first we have to see it as it truly exists. seabeyond Jan 2013 #60

Excellent post. redqueen Jan 2013 #112

Excellent ColumbusLib Jan 2013 #73

K&R MotherPetrie Jan 2013 #82

Reading this and the discussion,,,I'm stunned Mockingjay Jan 2013 #85

you... are a glorious human being shining in your own light seabeyond Jan 2013 #90

Thanks Mockingjay Jan 2013 #192

That fear you feel is felt by all women to some degree lunatica Jan 2013 #113

yes, but not all women Mockingjay Jan 2013 #195

same here SemperEadem Jan 2013 #200

It's definitely changeable. jeff47 Jan 2013 #184

Good food for thought Politicub Jan 2013 #103

I've been thinking about how the Female Experience is SO alien to Males: BlancheSplanchnik Jan 2013 #108

Tom Ashbrook (On Point) did an hour on this yesterday on NPR So_Blue Jan 2013 #116

i do appreciate their voice in india. seabeyond Jan 2013 #120

As usual, the MRA people just don't get it. Odin2005 Jan 2013 #127

MRA members ARE the rapists Dash87 Jan 2013 #141

K & R historylovr Jan 2013 #129

Thank you Sea ismnotwasm Jan 2013 #130

Believe it or not there are women (like me) who never think about rape. Waiting For Everyman Jan 2013 #145

you were raped and choose not to think or talk about it? do you think this is a good thing? bettyellen Jan 2013 #160

My point is that what the "patriarchy" gets out of this as a benefit Waiting For Everyman Jan 2013 #173

I disagree because, it's only working collectively that will end the benefits of patriarchy... bettyellen Jan 2013 #176

I think that the concept of patriarchy is out of date Waiting For Everyman Jan 2013 #179

what does the very exceptional case of a super wealthy woman have to do with the majority? Nothing. bettyellen Jan 2013 #181

i wonder how we ignore the issue in india with a shrug... blaming and confining women to avoid rape seabeyond Jan 2013 #183

You have no entitlement to expect interest where you think it should be. Waiting For Everyman Jan 2013 #185

we have a world of people that shrug away injustices. i get that. i dont accept it though. i will seabeyond Jan 2013 #187

you can't put old hands on young shoulders. and with this narrow world view, I'd say that's what we bettyellen Jan 2013 #197

If you are blind to the RL demographics about poverty, it's on you. IF that's truly your thing. bettyellen Jan 2013 #196

Some can't imagine reality being different from what they are willing to accept Major Nikon Jan 2013 #231

i understand the tough girl attitude to a large extent, they don't "need" feminism, it does't serve bettyellen Jan 2013 #186

It might be, but the systems that maintain it are still in place -- courts, police, ALEC, etc. ancianita Jan 2013 #254

We must not be living on the same planet. nt raccoon Jan 2013 #162

I don't know, even though I fought off a biker rapist at 15, I didn't think about it for another 15 bettyellen Jan 2013 #171

It's not necessarily overt ismnotwasm Jan 2013 #170

thank you for saying this EXACTLY this way. seabeyond Jan 2013 #175

it is part of the it "can't happen to me syndrome" - a refusal to identify with someone who was bettyellen Jan 2013 #227

Great post, thank you, sea. Lately I have been exploring Zorra Jan 2013 #150

i was going to say... how totally fascinating. and you already did, lol. seabeyond Jan 2013 #152

I have a somewhat contrary point of view, all men are damaged by rape as well. Uncle Joe Jan 2013 #161

and then... you have this. the next step. i LOVE it. thanks. and so very in your face, true. seabeyond Jan 2013 #165

I also think that the early sexualization of girls is part of this too. werknotgoin2takeit Jan 2013 #230

boys are can do. girls are... arent you pretty. seabeyond Jan 2013 #232

From a completely global perspective ismnotwasm Jan 2013 #166

Excellent points. redqueen Jan 2013 #174

Gotta run but have to take a minute to kick this! Thanks seabeyond! nt riderinthestorm Jan 2013 #163

kr Solly Mack Jan 2013 #167

Excellent OP, and interesting comments. s-cubed Jan 2013 #177

ok, guys, I get why you fear me. I am a woman, and I can see right through you. toby jo Jan 2013 #217

Great Article Larrymoe Curlyshemp Jan 2013 #226

Here's where this theory falls apart Major Nikon Jan 2013 #228

As always, Seabeyond, a fantastic thucythucy Jan 2013 #235

"Rapists are the shock troops of the patriarchy." seabeyond Jan 2013 #242

A discussion on Viewpoint on Current, Z_I_Peevey Jan 2013 #236

thank you so much for this info. wish i could watch it. seabeyond Jan 2013 #243

Citing the Steubenville case. caseymoz Jan 2013 #238

/popcorn cecilfirefox Jan 2013 #240

What an odd response. Sheldon Cooper Jan 2013 #250

Hey Seabee. whathehell Jan 2013 #245

ah, what the hell.... seabeyond Jan 2013 #247

Great shot, Seab! whathehell Jan 2013 #249

k&r Little Star Jan 2013 #248

FINALLY. SOMEONE brings up the complicity of men who won't rape but want to maintain power. ancianita Jan 2013 #252

not to mention the entertainment of rape in our media. seabeyond Jan 2013 #253

No they don't loose wheel Jan 2013 #256

I am poor in America Tsiyu Jan 2013 #259

How likely is a gang rape? loose wheel Jan 2013 #262

How likely is it that a woman will become president? Tsiyu Jan 2013 #265

if a man stays out of prison, chance of rape is significantly reduced. seabeyond Jan 2013 #269

I think that was a child abuse figure Tsiyu Jan 2013 #270

As history continues... loose wheel Jan 2013 #271