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reACTIONary

(5,770 posts)
64. Thanks, thoughtful questions...
Tue Jan 8, 2013, 01:22 PM
Jan 2013

...my notion was to use the charters and I believe you are pretty much correct about most corporate charters being rather vague and permissive. As explained below, there may be a remedy for this defect.

Citizens United was and is (using language derived from the ACLU CU brief) an "ideological advocacy organization" that specializes in documentary movies. IMHO it was simply exercising its rights under the first amendment. I believe that organizations such as the ACLU and Citizens United have a constitutional right to engage in protected speech regardless of the electoral calendar. At least that's my opinion, and that opinion seems to be shared by many DUers, by the ACLU and the SCOTUS itself.

Not all movies and entertainment constitute protected speech, but to the extent that they do, my opinion is that they should be protected from government regulation. So, in my view, Universal Studios and Sony Pictures do have a first amendment right to make such movies. (Keeping in mind that obscenity is not traditionally considered protected speech in and of itself.) In my opinion, if Zero-Dark-Thirty had been released just prior to the election, the FEC should have no business scrutinizing that decision.

One further question is whether or not organizations that engage in protected speech have a constitutional right to organize as corporations enjoying the privilege of limited liability. I'm not sure that they do. This is a privilege granted for the benefit of the public good, and might be withheld in the interest of the general welfare.

My personal view is that "ideological advocacy" organization that would fall under the 501(c)3 category should, as a mater of policy, be granted the privilege of limited liability. I am not so sure about organizations that would not fall under the 501 categories. The value of this privilege might be used as a means of limiting the speech of corporations that are not organized for the purpose of "ideological advocacy". The privilege of tax exemption and of allowing deductions for contributions is limited in this way and a list of the various types is maintained by the IRS. This list, or a similar one, could be used rather than the vague purpose supplied by the corporate charter.

I actually found a similar suggestion in the ACLU's CU amicus brief: the ACLU strongly believes that this Court should hold that the MCFL exception for nonprofit, ideological corporations that do not accept corporate funding should extend to organizations like the ACLU that only accept de minimis funding from sources other than individual donors. Contrary to the position it has taken for years, the government now apparently concedes, or at least acknowledges, that MCFL applies to nonprofit, ideological corporations that are financed “overwhelmingly” by individual donations. The ACLU urges the Court to adopt that interpretation of MCFL, if it does not overrule Austin entirely.

Admittedly, this is a "fall back position" but the ACLU seems to be making the same distinction I was attempting to make, that of an "ideological advocacy" organization, as opposed to other organizations that are focused on more mundane commercial purposes.

Now, the question is, WHY would we want to impose these limitations? The DU posts from those who are advocates of regulation give a variety of reasons, but I propose a FIRST AMENDMENT rational. This wasn't made clear in the OP.

My understanding of the first amendment is that it not only protects the freedom to speak, but also the freedom to REFUSE to speak and to DENY SUPPORT for speech that is contrary to one's own views and opinions. Minority share holders in a corporation that has a purpose other than advocacy may be having their assets used for speech that is contrary to their convictions. They contributed capital for the purpose of, say, building cars, and end up having those assets used to further the election of, who knows, Mitt Romney. In my opinion this is a violation of their first amendment rights and should not be allowed.

This is not, however, true of an "ideological advocacy" organization such as the ACLU or Citizens United. Anyone contributing capital to an organization that manifestly exists for the express purpose of advocating an ideological point of view understands how that contribution will be used, and is exercising free speech; she is not being compelled to support the opinions of others without consent.

Thus I believe that restrictions on the speech of organizations that want the privilege of limited liability can and should be made as a matter of fairness, under the first amendment, to protect those who have contributed capital from having their contribution misused against their personal convictions. And I believe that this can be done without restricting the liberty of those who want the privilege of limited liability in the public interest of advocating an ideological point of view.

Was Citizens United Correct? [View all] reACTIONary Jan 2013 OP
no, money will make a difference in close elections uponit7771 Jan 2013 #1
Citizens United gave the wealthy TWICE the voice to effect elections DJ13 Jan 2013 #2
The wealthy already have more of a voice... reACTIONary Jan 2013 #3
Perhaps Citizens United was decided on the basis of the principle of free speech DJ13 Jan 2013 #4
I don't disagree, but how does Citizen's United grant... reACTIONary Jan 2013 #6
How? DJ13 Jan 2013 #11
"buys greater influence" - that's my point... reACTIONary Jan 2013 #14
Money shouldnt equal speech DJ13 Jan 2013 #23
Money is not Speech. Ikonoklast Jan 2013 #5
How does one speak without spending money? reACTIONary Jan 2013 #7
And limiting corporate speech of organizations like the ACLU Yo_Mama Jan 2013 #10
Good point! NT reACTIONary Jan 2013 #43
The those with more money have more speech. Ikonoklast Jan 2013 #12
It is speech. tama Jan 2013 #9
The first amendment does not protect commercial speech... reACTIONary Jan 2013 #22
If you consider a ponzi scheme tama Jan 2013 #38
Maybe I missed your point. NT reACTIONary Jan 2013 #42
Seems that way tama Jan 2013 #45
I don't consider money to be a promise... reACTIONary Jan 2013 #48
Money is promise tama Jan 2013 #53
While you may not give a... reACTIONary Jan 2013 #58
Thing with Austrian school tama Jan 2013 #60
What could be the ethical justification of such inequality? reACTIONary Jan 2013 #61
That could be it tama Jan 2013 #63
See the ACLU amicus brief, which was arguing basically for the plaintiff Yo_Mama Jan 2013 #8
I'll take a look at the ACLU brief, but in the mean time... reACTIONary Jan 2013 #15
There is no constitutional rationale by which the government can differentiate Yo_Mama Jan 2013 #36
Thanks for your response... reACTIONary Jan 2013 #46
The "primary purpose" of Citizens United was to make a movie jberryhill Jan 2013 #55
"Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state Fire Walk With Me Jan 2013 #13
Fascism is an illiberal, undemocratic, authoritarian political ideology... reACTIONary Jan 2013 #17
Those are nice theories. In reality Fire Walk With Me Jan 2013 #27
if you march with a group such as Occupy (I did).... reACTIONary Jan 2013 #44
" in an oppressive, authoritarian police state, you don't." No totally, not yet. Lady Freedom Returns Jan 2013 #47
You are making a slippery-slope argument... reACTIONary Jan 2013 #50
It not so much politics as it is business. Lady Freedom Returns Jan 2013 #52
I think that is an exageration, but... reACTIONary Jan 2013 #59
It is not an exaggeration. It is happening. Lady Freedom Returns Jan 2013 #65
You are stuck in semantics and theories while the facts are in your face. Fire Walk With Me Jan 2013 #56
Nope. Not "semantics and theories". Actual experience in the real world... reACTIONary Jan 2013 #57
I know because I've attempted to move. To quote: Fire Walk With Me Jan 2013 #62
Of course not. It is an abomination. n/t Egalitarian Thug Jan 2013 #16
"Abomination" covers a lot of ground. Could you be more specific? NT reACTIONary Jan 2013 #19
Corporations, or any paper entity, are not people. Money is not speech. Egalitarian Thug Jan 2013 #21
Yes, that is specific. Nonetheless... reACTIONary Jan 2013 #24
One last kick to your attention seeking flame bait. "It falls short of an abomination" is only your Egalitarian Thug Jan 2013 #28
You are right. "An abomination" might not be all that much of a big deal... reACTIONary Jan 2013 #32
OK, it seems you really want to talk, my apologies for assuming that you were just Egalitarian Thug Jan 2013 #37
Thanks for the answer! NT reACTIONary Jan 2013 #40
BTW, "Egalitarian Thug" is a great nickname. NT reACTIONary Jan 2013 #33
Yes it was correctly decided. RB TexLa Jan 2013 #18
I'm wondering what your opinion of the rational... reACTIONary Jan 2013 #20
There's another thread somewhere Tab Jan 2013 #25
My OP was originally a response to that thread.... reACTIONary Jan 2013 #26
The idea of corporate personhood dates back to the 1400's Recursion Jan 2013 #29
Agreed - Personhood is a red herring. NT reACTIONary Jan 2013 #34
Yeah. Anyways, to my armchair conlaw opinion, the decesis was not stare Recursion Jan 2013 #35
"Corporations are people, my friend." ~Mitt Romney Fire Walk With Me Jan 2013 #30
If there is one thing I say.... Great Caesars Ghost Jan 2013 #31
The ACLU says "yes", and, as usual, I agree with the ACLU. Nye Bevan Jan 2013 #39
I think your analogy is correct... reACTIONary Jan 2013 #49
Actually, the ACLU said yes to a very narrow issue and the court ruled very broadly against Puregonzo1188 Jan 2013 #51
+10 - In fact... reACTIONary Jan 2013 #66
DU is a corporation cthulu2016 Jan 2013 #41
Question for you jberryhill Jan 2013 #54
Thanks, thoughtful questions... reACTIONary Jan 2013 #64
Yup, the problem is more charter law than anything else. TheKentuckian Jan 2013 #67
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