General Discussion

noamnety

(20,234 posts)

148. now picture yourself as a female in a minimum wage retail job.

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 09:44 PM

Jan 2013

You get pregnant. Maybe from rape. Unless you're one of those women whose bodies have a way of shutting that down unless you enjoyed the rape. Or you weren't deemed a rape victim because your vagina wasn't shredded properly. Or you didn't qualify as a rape victim in your state because you weren't married. None of those circumstances matter though - you won't report it as a rape because the time off work for the trial will get you fired.

Or maybe you weren't raped and it was just an unplanned pregnancy and you can't afford to raise a child on your crappy minimum wage job. But you're in a location where abortions are so restricted that you can't get one without taking multiple days off work, which will get you fired, so you're unemployed now.

Or maybe you could get one legally but you can't scrape up the money for it, and insurance (if you have it) doesn't cover that procedure.

Or maybe you want to be pregnant. You get fired for being pregnant.

Or hey, maybe you aren't even pregnant at all, never have been. You just get fired for being too attractive.

Wait no, we'll stick to being pregnant. You're pregnant, you have complications and as a result the doctor orders you to drink more water. Now you get fired for having water during a nonscheduled break.

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"Man-bashing." My favorite DU pule. [View all] WilliamPitt Jan 2013 OP

Any DU conversation about equality is a good thing leftstreet Jan 2013 #1

Yes. Tom Rinaldo Jan 2013 #2

If I can clarify your post just a little: lapislzi Jan 2013 #3

Actually, that too Tom Rinaldo Jan 2013 #6

Thank you for saying that. lapislzi Jan 2013 #21

Just as I, a white woman, benefit from white privelege duhneece Jan 2013 #132

Yes, like that. I benefit from several built in priviledges... Tom Rinaldo Jan 2013 #149

White privilege should be uncontroversial, imho. lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #154

I think the comparison is a good one duhneece Jan 2013 #161

yes. It is a good one. lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #168

That's why white privilege must be conflated with male privilege Major Nikon Jan 2013 #192

I noticed you didn't get a response from the other side on this in at least two different requests Major Nikon Jan 2013 #311

Thank you for noticing, but it has been far more than twice. lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #313

yep... every man who resists the idea cites a personal exception. refuses to measure it apples to bettyellen Jan 2013 #5

Do people think they should be more wealthy than every single woman and African-American gollygee Jan 2013 #72

Eggsactly The comparisons are outrageously stupid. One said that his two sons were making less money bettyellen Jan 2013 #78

And they don't seem to understand ... 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2013 #103

Yes! I pointed that out a few times, and they drop the conversation.... bettyellen Jan 2013 #109

It's a lot like the anti-affirmative action argument ... 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2013 #112

he ran away BainsBane Jan 2013 #136

They shouldn't just make more money than their wives gollygee Jan 2013 #110

Beyonce and the Kardashians rule with money AND the ability to incite hormonal reactions in men, LOL bettyellen Jan 2013 #115

his example was that white men are the only group who earn less than their parents BainsBane Jan 2013 #138

If you're going to call me out, it's okay to do it by name. lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #140

I did so directly to your post BainsBane Jan 2013 #141

Then why are you doing it here? lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #151

why are you asking me? BainsBane Jan 2013 #156

I've gotten used to the stage-whisperers telling others what I think. lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #157

that's when you clarify yourself BainsBane Jan 2013 #162

There was nothing ambiguous about what I said. lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #165

Interestingly ... 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2013 #79

My point is to refute that argument, because it always pops up Tom Rinaldo Jan 2013 #129

What makes it a false argument? hfojvt Jan 2013 #166

First off I am not "wagging fingers". I am Working Class for one thing Tom Rinaldo Jan 2013 #199

the whole point of this exercise is to wag finges hfojvt Jan 2013 #246

There are no or few privileges associated with being black Major Nikon Jan 2013 #194

you have been given so many examples you ignore. you dont believe in patriarchy, we get that. but, seabeyond Jan 2013 #195

You've also been given examples of female privilege you choose to ignore Major Nikon Jan 2013 #205

"Female privilege" marions ghost Jan 2013 #255

Evidently you haven't looked Major Nikon Jan 2013 #258

And I would argue that despite these negatives marions ghost Jan 2013 #260

Sure you can Major Nikon Jan 2013 #272

It is not ridiculous marions ghost Jan 2013 #281

I explained to you in detail why I didn't respond Major Nikon Jan 2013 #282

It's easy marions ghost Jan 2013 #294

Has nothing to do with privilege Major Nikon Jan 2013 #297

Sure it has to do with privilege marions ghost Jan 2013 #298

Why do you feel the need to shame men in order to make your arguments? Major Nikon Jan 2013 #302

I see marions ghost Jan 2013 #306

Discussing privilege is one of the hardest things to do. Brickbat Jan 2013 #4

I'm not sure it's all that difficult, but it seems to be for some Major Nikon Jan 2013 #48

See post #44. WilliamPitt Jan 2013 #49

Not my post Major Nikon Jan 2013 #57

Tom Brady bashing... trumad Jan 2013 #7

i like tom brady. idd wonderful things for my fantasy team last year. lost him this year. seabeyond Jan 2013 #8

Yeah---I bet you have a fantasy. trumad Jan 2013 #11

hey.. that would be my whitten. seabeyond Jan 2013 #18

Not until Feb 4th. WilliamPitt Jan 2013 #12

I don't want to live in a world where that's not okay. Iggo Jan 2013 #15

No it is not! edbermac Jan 2013 #75

Men cannot be feminists? DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2013 #9

As I am the author, that would be my opinion. WilliamPitt Jan 2013 #14

Fair enough DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2013 #19

for the record.... tomp Jan 2013 #184

Maybe that's because he followed that statement of belief with "Fact." GOTV Jan 2013 #185

As far as I'm concerned, it is fact. WilliamPitt Jan 2013 #198

Then it's weird that you stepped back to it only being an "opinion" a few posts ago. Do you think GOTV Jan 2013 #285

It's "fact" when it suits him... sibelian Jan 2013 #307

I don't see the value in it either way Major Nikon Jan 2013 #312

I'm pretty sure we're both feminists--according to the dictionary, anyway. dorkulon Jan 2013 #90

Problem is, it's not simple. WilliamPitt Jan 2013 #95

It's not a club, Will; it's a way of thinking. It doesn't cost anything. dorkulon Jan 2013 #99

it cost some of us a whole lot. do you know, on this board of progressives, women that speak out seabeyond Jan 2013 #101

I'm not trying to diminish that or claim it's untrue. dorkulon Jan 2013 #105

i thought it an interesting few steps in further insight. and... seabeyond Jan 2013 #114

claiming membership in something without having to pay any of the dues seabeyond Jan 2013 #100

What is the prevailing view r.e. definition of feminism? DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2013 #107

i have more to explore with this, and good question. but, i am out of time. seabeyond Jan 2013 #116

thank you for the reply. n/t DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2013 #119

But this is a ... 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2013 #108

Try telling that to my husband, who was the head of a women's shelter. Zoeisright Jan 2013 #102

No, any more than white people can be abolitionists as they are neither black nor slaves. DRoseDARs Jan 2013 #65

I'd rather be an Equalist anyway. nt joeunderdog Jan 2013 #113

Straight White Male: The Lowest Difficulty Setting There Is TalkingDog Jan 2013 #10

love that. nt seabeyond Jan 2013 #27

I'm laughing!!! hunter Jan 2013 #33

great graphic! n/t BlancheSplanchnik Jan 2013 #38

That is a perfect graphic, and the linked blog post was excellent! Lone_Star_Dem Jan 2013 #45

Perfect. Just stole and posted on... well, somewhere else. nt jobycom Jan 2013 #60

The best part: Zookeeper Jan 2013 #83

I'd pay real $$ for that tetris game Blue_Tires Jan 2013 #87

Unlimited ammo for a BFG ThoughtCriminal Jan 2013 #126

I'm stealing this! n/t backscatter712 Jan 2013 #153

That is brilliant! And funny. yardwork Jan 2013 #164

I think we need more threads talking about cop privilege snooper2 Jan 2013 #13

*whistle* WilliamPitt Jan 2013 #16

You know. The skirts have it made. I don't know what all the nagging is about. Guy Whitey Corngood Jan 2013 #17

Hear Hear, Mr. Pitt The Magistrate Jan 2013 #20

Exactly. The Brits Have An Expression For That HangOnKids Jan 2013 #24

Ah. So denial of its existence becomes... sibelian Jan 2013 #309

Not Quite Sure What You Are Driving at Here, Sir The Magistrate Jan 2013 #310

+1 ismnotwasm Jan 2013 #22

Here's a shortcut, Will, just point them to this: TygrBright Jan 2013 #23

How it is pointed out is more the issue with me. Throd Jan 2013 #25

The White Male Privilege thing is stupid. Lady Freedom Returns Jan 2013 #26

The idea of "White Male Privilege" is difficult to understand when you pick one specific (if Brickbat Jan 2013 #30

I'd put it this way ... all else being equal ... there is White Male Privilage. JoePhilly Jan 2013 #37

studies have shown that white sounding names get up to 50% more chance of call back than black seabeyond Jan 2013 #40

And studies have shown that applicants for ditch digger and similar unskilled labor eridani Jan 2013 #182

There is no question that white privilege exists Major Nikon Jan 2013 #273

yes, you repeatedly make your point. racism? address. sexism? wha? no such thing. seabeyond Jan 2013 #274

When have I ever claimed sexism doesn't exist ever in any of my posts? Major Nikon Jan 2013 #276

really.... you haev made your position clear. i live in a state of men like you. i get it. seabeyond Jan 2013 #277

Wow, throw in some sexism as evidence that I am sexist Major Nikon Jan 2013 #278

I have to say your analogy is a bad one justiceischeap Jan 2013 #144

You made the case for why Unions are so important RobertEarl Jan 2013 #150

and, chances are that many non-white-male-straight people who wanted that job weren't considered spooky3 Jan 2013 #243

I don't think anyone here is denying that economic class divides the "haves" and "have nots"... YoungDemCA Jan 2013 #225

Well said. A lot of people have difficulty thinking in terms of distributions, degree/extent, etc. spooky3 Jan 2013 #242

Very true. Pule? Zorra Jan 2013 #28

Thank you for this one Warpy Jan 2013 #29

I grew up knowing that to be born white was to be privileged and that to be born black... freshwest Jan 2013 #31

K & R historylovr Jan 2013 #32

*clutches pearls* MynameisBlarney Jan 2013 #34

Male privilege or dominance pscot Jan 2013 #35

There are many women who don't get it either. seabeyond Jan 2013 #41

I love you will Pitt sally5050 Jan 2013 #36

K and big R n/t geardaddy Jan 2013 #39

50 points to your house for using the word "pule." MineralMan Jan 2013 #42

+1000000 BlancheSplanchnik Jan 2013 #43

Wish I was as privileged as some people here seem to think I am. blueclown Jan 2013 #44

"25 year old straight white male who still works a crappy, close to minimum wage retail job" Scout Jan 2013 #69

Well stated. Thank you. nt DLevine Jan 2013 #71

Well said. yardwork Jan 2013 #111

You missed the point entirely lunatica Jan 2013 #77

now picture yourself as a female in a minimum wage retail job. noamnety Jan 2013 #148

See post 23 and go to the link tavalon Jan 2013 #215

Even if I didn't like the content of your post I'd have rec'd it for the use of "pule" Lone_Star_Dem Jan 2013 #46

Some of the whining I see when anyone dares to mention male tblue37 Jan 2013 #47

Getting tiresome now LittleBlue Jan 2013 #50

Thanks for the kick. WilliamPitt Jan 2013 #51

I hope people see it LittleBlue Jan 2013 #56

Just because you see the threads doesn't mean every DUer does lunatica Jan 2013 #86

Looks like rec-fishing to me. nt Union Scribe Jan 2013 #123

And just maybe there are some privileged white men demwing Jan 2013 #52

That being the case, and THIS being the case..... Smarmie Doofus Jan 2013 #53

You named yourself well. WilliamPitt Jan 2013 #55

Thanks, Will. Great post. nt s-cubed Jan 2013 #54

K&R and thanks. nt Chorophyll Jan 2013 #58

thank you SemperEadem Jan 2013 #59

Well done, you! nt jobycom Jan 2013 #61

k/r Solly Mack Jan 2013 #62

THANK YOU. n/t ProfessionalLeftist Jan 2013 #63

I'm grateful you said this Will but many of us saying the same thing get slammed every time. riderinthestorm Jan 2013 #64

There Can Be Only One WilliamPitt Jan 2013 #66

Huge Highlander fans here!! riderinthestorm Jan 2013 #67

I could not love you more. nt rivegauche Jan 2013 #68

Preach it, brother. planetc Jan 2013 #70

i would have argued with will, this point, a year ago. not so much now. seabeyond Jan 2013 #84

This is precisely why many feminists say men cannot be feminists... redqueen Jan 2013 #104

It strikes me that this is yet another excuse to argue futilly over a term instead of ... planetc Jan 2013 #128

No, it isn't. redqueen Jan 2013 #143

That was good tavalon Jan 2013 #218

That's kinda like saying you're gay when you're a gay ally. justiceischeap Jan 2013 #147

You're conflating "patriarchy" with "privilege" lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #130

One of the problems is the sexes are complementary not equal happyslug Jan 2013 #73

girls cant do math. seabeyond Jan 2013 #91

I was going to bring math up, but it is clearly cultural not innate happyslug Jan 2013 #117

the only thing i pulled out from your post, though interesting read, is when there is a physical seabeyond Jan 2013 #193

Good cultural anthro post. libdem4life Jan 2013 #159

But this "complementary" stuff is used as a facile excuse for any and all gender inequalities. nomorenomore08 Jan 2013 #181

"Girls can't... Boys can't..." Dash87 Jan 2013 #239

perfect. i have two brothers that were more nurturing than their wives. seabeyond Jan 2013 #248

Going down that road leads to an irreconcilable problem. lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #263

You better talk to some child Psychiatrists about women and children happyslug Jan 2013 #275

I disagree. MadrasT Jan 2013 #304

I'VE HAD IT WITH MEN Skittles Jan 2013 #74

You are so naughty... Jeff In Milwaukee Jan 2013 #76

I'VE HAD IT WITH WOMEN Aerows Jan 2013 #85

Mr. Pitt, I love you and always have Jeff In Milwaukee Jan 2013 #80

Reintroduce? WilliamPitt Jan 2013 #88

You're quibbling over my word choice... Jeff In Milwaukee Jan 2013 #92

Again... WilliamPitt Jan 2013 #93

And I love it when you feign being oblivious...(nt) Jeff In Milwaukee Jan 2013 #94

What do you mean? WilliamPitt Jan 2013 #96

Yeah. Just like that...(nt) Jeff In Milwaukee Jan 2013 #98

Great excuse... trumad Jan 2013 #188

Here's how I handle it tavalon Jan 2013 #220

We all get scolded for that tavalon Jan 2013 #219

Now compare all your white men to black men lunatica Jan 2013 #89

He may be covered in grease and grime, Nye Bevan Jan 2013 #120

"...favorite DU pule." It's hard to pick one. Kudos to those who can, especially with all the retread Jan 2013 #81

How about if we invent some robots that it's OK to oppress? tclambert Jan 2013 #82

k&r Starry Messenger Jan 2013 #97

This belongs in Meta next to the puling OPs, but I'm giving it a kick and a rec anyway. yardwork Jan 2013 #106

I was informed that men can't be feminists some time back War Horse Jan 2013 #118

Definition of "feminist" in dictionary.com: Nye Bevan Jan 2013 #121

Sorry - I disagree on several points jimlup Jan 2013 #122

No one EVER talks about "White Female" privilege... Bonobo Jan 2013 #124

many white female acknowledge and discuss white female privilege thru out these threads. nt seabeyond Jan 2013 #125

Well we should tavalon Jan 2013 #221

"but a man claiming to be a feminist is the equivalent of a hammer claiming to be a nail" lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #127

Great post DaveJ Jan 2013 #134

The problem with issues like "male privilege" or "rape culture" lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #139

it is only how you choose to interpret. many many men, whites, understand the concept seabeyond Jan 2013 #142

Being rhetorically kicked in the head is not subject to interpretation. n/t lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #152

There is white privilege. I am white. I am not being kicked in the head seabeyond Jan 2013 #155

I'll flat out say it -- I don't get it. DaveJ Jan 2013 #196

not long ago i had to deal with an issue with something in the house. i forget. but, male domain. seabeyond Jan 2013 #200

You just reminded me of a cute story tavalon Jan 2013 #223

"I asked him if he knew anything about plumbing and he said no" chucklin... seabeyond Jan 2013 #224

I suppose so tavalon Jan 2013 #284

How men see it. lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #237

Here's what "male privilege" gets you Major Nikon Jan 2013 #254

+1 n/t lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #259

I know EXACTLY what you mean seabeyond, about marions ghost Jan 2013 #267

yup. seabeyond Jan 2013 #271

I recently had a door to door salesman ask for the "man of the house" MadrasT Jan 2013 #303

I think things are changing-- marions ghost Jan 2013 #305

Pay Equity--the big picture: marions ghost Jan 2013 #290

I have no problem with the concept quaker bill Jan 2013 #131

Thanks for your honesty marions ghost Jan 2013 #291

white man bashing BainsBane Jan 2013 #133

Fess up... greytdemocrat Jan 2013 #135

Will.... 'You've come a long way, baby..." LanternWaste Jan 2013 #137

Hawaiian word of the day: pule mahina Jan 2013 #145

Thank you for your understanding re: men claiming to be feminists. As you are obviously aware, many redqueen Jan 2013 #146

It feels to me gollygee Jan 2013 #158

Yep. It is hard to turn off the conditioning, it is not an on/off switch. redqueen Jan 2013 #190

Love ya, rq, but...no. Zorra Jan 2013 #173

What secluded pockets of society are so out of touch with patriarchy redqueen Jan 2013 #187

Thanks, redqueen. Maybe someone will successfully go about the process of redefining the word to Zorra Jan 2013 #287

Notice that men say things like "we" haven't defined feminism. redqueen Jan 2013 #288

I'm aware of the argument. Thank you. I repeat, Zorra Jan 2013 #292

Eons of patriarchy and internalized misogyny are enormously difficult to dislodge. redqueen Jan 2013 #295

I have told other white males 'this' a dozen + times RobertEarl Jan 2013 #160

My other 'getcha' to white males RobertEarl Jan 2013 #245

"the sexes are complimentary" marions ghost Jan 2013 #293

This message was self-deleted by its author sekha68 Jan 2013 #163

But BEYONCE'S a millionaire!!1 Thus, white and male privilege doesn't exist! Number23 Jan 2013 #167

Sure, one datapoint isn't useful. How about if we use ALL the datapoints? lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #170

Jesus Christ, I'd give anything for you to stop responding to me Number23 Jan 2013 #172

If you don't want your opinions challenged, there are several solutions. lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #174

The OP doesn't specify any country. That was your interpretation Number23 Jan 2013 #175

Equally politely declined. n/t lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #178

Upon stipulation: What if a man leverages that privilege? flvegan Jan 2013 #169

Leveraging the privilege WilliamPitt Jan 2013 #201

You're just redefining a word that already has a perfectly good definition. dorkulon Jan 2013 #247

"Words have meanings." WilliamPitt Jan 2013 #252

Thanks for the lesson; how edifying. dorkulon Jan 2013 #264

To edify once meant to put up a building. From the Latin �dificare, "to build, construct." WilliamPitt Jan 2013 #265

Is that really all you're going to give me? dorkulon Jan 2013 #266

Garble originally meant "to sort out" WilliamPitt Jan 2013 #268

You're just trolling me at this point. dorkulon Jan 2013 #270

I guess we're leaving it there, then. dorkulon Jan 2013 #299

Congratulations! WilliamPitt Jan 2013 #300

What a compelling argument. dorkulon Jan 2013 #301

Someone can completely accept the existence of male privelege... Silent3 Jan 2013 #171

+1 Vinnie From Indy Jan 2013 #177

EXACTLY the existance of white male privilege and female chauvanism are not mutually exclusive JAbuchan08 Jan 2013 #186

Exactly just1voice Jan 2013 #208

How about a gay man Fearless Jan 2013 #176

Far more than just 2000 years. Rex Jan 2013 #179

Your little girl has exactly the right dad eridani Jan 2013 #180

OK..."white male privilege" ibegurpard Jan 2013 #183

For the 100th time... WilliamPitt Jan 2013 #203

Well Mr. Pitt, trumad Jan 2013 #189

I disagree about the feminist thing. JoeyT Jan 2013 #191

Some 30 years ago, the National Lampoon summed it up nicely Burma Jones Jan 2013 #197

HEADS UP: Please see post 201 for elaboration on men being feminists WilliamPitt Jan 2013 #202

201 demonstrates you have your own definition which is not the mainstream definition Major Nikon Jan 2013 #206

I don't expect anything. WilliamPitt Jan 2013 #207

You'd probably be understood better if you didn't attempt to pass off your opinions as fact Major Nikon Jan 2013 #214

I assume people are capable of nuance. WilliamPitt Jan 2013 #216

The difference between fact and opinion is not nuance Major Nikon Jan 2013 #217

I looked up pule libodem Jan 2013 #204

I looked it up too. philly_bob Jan 2013 #230

Donkey cheese makes me whine libodem Jan 2013 #244

Yes to everything you just said tavalon Jan 2013 #209

The big problem I have theKed Jan 2013 #210

except, you would have to give at least one example of the desire to "bring white males down" seabeyond Jan 2013 #211

Are you say, then, theKed Jan 2013 #213

one example of the desire to "bring white males down". i ask you have an example seabeyond Jan 2013 #226

Have fun wandering down your little path of derailment theKed Jan 2013 #228

you make an argument with a falsehood to derail. i called you on it. you cannot answer. nt seabeyond Jan 2013 #232

*sigh* WilliamPitt Jan 2013 #212

If "all were privileged", wouldn't the term "privilege" lose its meaning? YoungDemCA Jan 2013 #235

...I hope so? theKed Jan 2013 #236

It hasn't already? n/t lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #261

See what I don't understand is grantcart Jan 2013 #222

I guess you missed this... YoungDemCA Jan 2013 #227

Yup, never got that whole "great personality" either. grantcart Jan 2013 #249

exactly. 70's, 80's we were on a good path forward. seabeyond Jan 2013 #231

The book "Backlash" by Susan Faludi offers an interesting explanation. spooky3 Jan 2013 #250

thank you spooky3 seabeyond Jan 2013 #251

You're welcome. Notice that the one-star reviews have this in common: spooky3 Jan 2013 #253

ha ha ha. feminazi. ya, thats it. lol. ya. nt seabeyond Jan 2013 #256

I think you're confusing "settled" with "resolved" or "fixed". lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #241

From one man to another...well said YoungDemCA Jan 2013 #229

But "there is no misandry on DU." Pab Sungenis Jan 2013 #233

What misandry? YoungDemCA Jan 2013 #234

There is a fine line between challenging male privilege Pab Sungenis Jan 2013 #240

+++1! & Not differentiating the two does NO good service to social/economic justice. It, in fact, patrice Jan 2013 #262

...why are we like this? McDiggy Jan 2013 #238

+1 I don't get it either. I'm not a father; that doesn't mean that I don't understand fathering, nor patrice Jan 2013 #257

Answer one question marions ghost Jan 2013 #269

,.....I thopught about it...honestly, too... McDiggy Jan 2013 #283

I didn't say "live the life of Hillary"-- marions ghost Jan 2013 #289

Sorry, can't agree with you. McDiggy Jan 2013 #314

You need to realize marions ghost Jan 2013 #315

I disagree that men cannot be feminists. Deep13 Jan 2013 #279

WHAT is a p-u-l-e? benld74 Jan 2013 #280

Respectfully, you are confusing woman with feminist juanalderete Jan 2013 #286

A lot of this I agree with but call bs on men not being able to be feminists. uppityperson Jan 2013 #296

Which of us is more pleased with ourselves, Will? sibelian Jan 2013 #308