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In reply to the discussion: Yes, lead poisoning could really be a cause of violent crime [View all]HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)97. Here's the problem with your analysis.
1. The 70s-90s increase in violent crime was predominantly an urban phenomenon.
2. Though you are correct that vehicles/capita were higher outside urban areas, that has always been the case, & NYC is not unique in that respect. E.g. 1930 v. 1990 vehicles/household:
San Francisco: .87/1.33
Napa County: 1.42/2.19
http://www.mtc.ca.gov/maps_and_data/datamart/forecast/ao/tab1120.htm#table11
Napa County: 1.42/2.19
http://www.mtc.ca.gov/maps_and_data/datamart/forecast/ao/tab1120.htm#table11
3. However, as you acknowledge, in urban areas vehicle ownership & use is concentrated in a smaller geographic area, which is presumably why urban kids had higher average blood lead than rural kids in the days of leaded gas & presumably the reason the researchers focused their research on big cities, along with the big spike in crime in the cities.
4. Urban vehicles/household, while lower than rural rates, were nevertheless already relatively high by 1930 for two reasons: a) rich people; b) delivery and service vehicles.
In San Francisco, for example, vehicles/household in 1930 were already 76% of the 1970 rate & 65% of the 1990 rate:
1930: autos/total vehicles registered/household = .82/.87
1950: .92/1.04
1970: .98/1.14
1990: 1.08/1.33
http://www.mtc.ca.gov/maps_and_data/datamart/forecast/ao/tab1120.htm#table11
1950: .92/1.04
1970: .98/1.14
1990: 1.08/1.33
http://www.mtc.ca.gov/maps_and_data/datamart/forecast/ao/tab1120.htm#table11
5. Also, vehicles/household grew at a slower rate in most big cities than in rural-suburban areas circa 1950-1970, supposedly the critical years:
SF: 1.04 to 1.14/household = 9.6% growth
Contra costa county = 1.31 - 1.88/household = 43.5% growth
http://www.mtc.ca.gov/maps_and_data/datamart/forecast/ao/tab1120.htm#table11
Contra costa county = 1.31 - 1.88/household = 43.5% growth
http://www.mtc.ca.gov/maps_and_data/datamart/forecast/ao/tab1120.htm#table11
NYC is indeed a uniquely 'car-free' city, as opposed to say Detroit during its heyday. So it's interesting that it was almost synonymous with violent crime during the 70s-90s. It's a curious thing -- but less so if you're aware of the history:
a. The deindustrialization & job loss circa 1950s-1980s
b. The heroin epidemic of the late 60s-70s
c. The 1975 financial crisis and the subsequent deliberate policy of disinvestment & 'planned shrinkage,' which starved black/ghetto areas of funding, services & public & private investment
d. The results of the above, including the abandonment & arson of the south bronx
e. The 1980s crack epidemic, which affected the same areas
f. The public health crisis (AIDS, TB, etc) which affected the same areas
http://books.google.com/books/about/A_Plague_On_Your_Houses.html?id=WqxzT1nM12wC
b. The heroin epidemic of the late 60s-70s
c. The 1975 financial crisis and the subsequent deliberate policy of disinvestment & 'planned shrinkage,' which starved black/ghetto areas of funding, services & public & private investment
d. The results of the above, including the abandonment & arson of the south bronx
e. The 1980s crack epidemic, which affected the same areas
f. The public health crisis (AIDS, TB, etc) which affected the same areas
http://books.google.com/books/about/A_Plague_On_Your_Houses.html?id=WqxzT1nM12wC
IMO the reason this lead study is getting hyped is because it 'disappears' the effect of jobs, income & public policy on crime & other social outcomes by attributing urban ills mainly to a environmental toxin.
And that is certainly why some elements in the right-wing press like it:
For heres the problem. We just had a century of people haranguing us that crime is a product of poverty. And a good 50 years of similar being shouted at that its about inequality too. Yet here is this new thesis. That actually crime is a result of the stupidity brought on by environmental poisoning. Im willing to believe the new thesis: but are those who have been screaming about poverty and inequality willing to do the same?
If lead has been the cause of all that crime then it wasnt poverty or inequality that caused all that crime, was it?
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/01/08/the-problem-for-the-left-if-tetraethyl-lead-really-does-cause-crime/
If lead has been the cause of all that crime then it wasnt poverty or inequality that caused all that crime, was it?
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/01/08/the-problem-for-the-left-if-tetraethyl-lead-really-does-cause-crime/
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It was hypothesized 80 years ago that the fall of the Roman Empire was due to lead plates, goblets
leveymg
Jan 2013
#1
I stand corrected. People have known for at least 1900 years that ingesting lead is dangerous
leveymg
Jan 2013
#72
I think too much is being made about this story. I don't view it as news or even as original
leveymg
Jan 2013
#76
I don't buy it. what is the mechanism through which increased exposure to lead increases
HiPointDem
Jan 2013
#3
i remember when similar studies were done in the 70s. there were problems with them then, &
HiPointDem
Jan 2013
#5
how do you explain the pre-1925 rise in murder and the drop circa 1937-1965? Lead began
HiPointDem
Jan 2013
#10
yes, they line up well for the crime of aggravated assault, in the cities chosen, in the time
HiPointDem
Jan 2013
#52
Prohibition ended on 12/5/1933 and professionally manufactured alcohol became more readily available
AnotherMcIntosh
Jan 2013
#34
'it's possible....' but unlikely to have had such a large effect on murder rates.
HiPointDem
Jan 2013
#39
why should it adjust for *any* causes? it's a graph of the murder rate, period. i'm not shouting
HiPointDem
Jan 2013
#43
The rate of people being Killed in Europe in 1946 was a HUGE DROP from from 1944
happyslug
Jan 2013
#69
Military deaths/war deaths aren't part of the murder rate statistics. They're part of the general
HiPointDem
Jan 2013
#98
Lead paint, and the switch from lead pipe water systems after 1900, better reporting
happyslug
Jan 2013
#62
i'm not convinced by all the ad hoc, maybe this maybe that stuff on lead pipes & lead paint,
HiPointDem
Jan 2013
#79
I already acknowledged the point about national data. But we do have data for a lot of big
HiPointDem
Jan 2013
#86
There was chipping paint in rural homes too. And there was chipping lead paint circa 1910-
HiPointDem
Jan 2013
#111
Yes, & what was the lead source that declined precipitously in the 1910s-20s such that the murder
HiPointDem
Jan 2013
#108
lead is a *proven* toxin, & has *proven* effects on physical & mental development (i.e developmental
HiPointDem
Jan 2013
#122
Your math is wrong. 1935 plus at least 20 years (more for cumulative effect) is 1955
SharonAnn
Jan 2013
#66
lead began being added to fuel about 1925, not 1935. murder rates dropped dramatically ~1937-1965.
HiPointDem
Jan 2013
#74
200 cars/1000 people in 1930 = 200% increase from 1900, 100% increase from 1920. And car
HiPointDem
Jan 2013
#87
Purchased of cars were concentrated in the Rural and Suburban areas prior to WWII
happyslug
Jan 2013
#96
'Freakanomics" is right-wing garbage, Steve Levitt is a right-wing hack, and this lead theory
HiPointDem
Jan 2013
#89
it was in the book too; not directly, but the whole argument turns on differential abortion rates
HiPointDem
Jan 2013
#107
Gas isn't/wasn't the only delivery mechanism, though--lead paint was an issue too.
MADem
Jan 2013
#102
No, it wasn't, but none of the other sources you mention disappeared in the teens and 20s, which
HiPointDem
Jan 2013
#110
Well, they didn't all have to die--they could come home wounded, or with PTSD, or healthy--
MADem
Jan 2013
#117
same could be said of vietnam vets, but it didn't happen. this is all ad hoc rationalizing because
HiPointDem
Jan 2013
#119
Not so much...for example, it's pretty well-accepted that lead exposure = decreased IQ.
HiPointDem
Jan 2013
#123
why would lead just affect violent crime rates? rather than crime generally, i mean.
HiPointDem
Jan 2013
#11
Because it's specifically violent crime that's linked to lead poisoning?
Spider Jerusalem
Jan 2013
#41
lol. i read your link. the theoretical construct cited has to do with impulse control, which isn't
HiPointDem
Jan 2013
#46
none of which are specific to aggravated assault or violence. but speaking of drugs:
HiPointDem
Jan 2013
#54
That was a drug war, something generally removed when it comes to overall murder rates
happyslug
Jan 2013
#68
and did the authors of such studies control for effects of 'drug war'? & how is it possible to
HiPointDem
Jan 2013
#71
that's a reason we might pay more attention to violent crime stats rather than other crime stats,
HiPointDem
Jan 2013
#73
around here we used to have many murders, shootings by the foreign gang bangers..then Obama was
Sunlei
Jan 2013
#56
Except the correlation between eliminating leaded gasoline and declining violent crime...
Spider Jerusalem
Jan 2013
#12
I don't believe that just because someone says so in a news report. I can see it doesn't
HiPointDem
Jan 2013
#15
but i haven't read those papers, and no one has posted them on DU. they posted news reports.
HiPointDem
Jan 2013
#19
as you are the sort of person who thinks name-calling is an acceptable discussion tactic, you
HiPointDem
Jan 2013
#26
i didn't say incarceration rates always follow violent crimes rates. i posted the stats on incar-
HiPointDem
Jan 2013
#33
Thank God for the uk/eu news and uk medical reports or Americans would never know what harms them.
Sunlei
Jan 2013
#55
except most of the research was done in the us & reported in the us as well.
HiPointDem
Jan 2013
#57
not these days, the corporations have much stronger control and our American news has declined.
Sunlei
Jan 2013
#58
yeah, that's why outlets like "forbes" are discussing this research (done in the us), because of
HiPointDem
Jan 2013
#100
the main way used to be leaded paint & gas. since both were banned, average blood levels of lead
HiPointDem
Jan 2013
#18
Check the CDC, which keeps stats on lead across 50 states. Their data do correlate high lead
ancianita
Jan 2013
#20
can you link to one of those pages where these correlations are shown or described?
HiPointDem
Jan 2013
#36
My mistatement. I meant that their lead measures data are correlated by others with crime. I'm
ancianita
Jan 2013
#81
Thanks. There's data from national to local levels, and it's all helping to make this case.
ancianita
Jan 2013
#104
you apparently didn't read what i posted. It says two things: most of the data just shows
HiPointDem
Jan 2013
#109
perhaps the answer today is the medical treatment with chelators as a routine health care.
Sunlei
Jan 2013
#40
Too bad you are already tomb-stoned. Now you'll never know what's silly about that statement.
cthulu2016
Jan 2013
#91