General Discussion

H2O Man

(78,894 posts)

178. Respectfully disagree.

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 11:50 AM

Jan 2013

He is not "defending weaver (sic)" .....

If our nation is to function under the rule of law, two things are essential to maintain a civil society. First, those who violate the law have to be held accountable. Second, the law has to be applied in a manner that does not violate constitutional rights.

The person you are accusing of defending Weaver is merely pointing out that a significant part of the tragic events were a result of the police's failures to carry out that second part.

The true value of the rule of law isn't found in respecting the rights of those we find attractive and/or agreeable. Quite the opposite. A good example being that Amendment 1 applies equally to good and decent human beings, and to those who channel Fox News.

That Weaver was trash .... a repulsive low-life ..... is a given on DU:GD. That law enforcement made serious errors in that confrontation has been established and documented by a wide variety of sources, including the outcomes of the civil court cases.

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Do you think all these gun nuts making threats will lead to a national Ruby Ridge situation? [View all] SummerSnow Jan 2013 OP

Yes. JaneyVee Jan 2013 #1

And who was responsible for THAT travesty?? B2G Jan 2013 #2

I'd say the folks at Ruby Ridge who holed up and forced the confrontation. maxsolomon Jan 2013 #7

You might want to review the history on this incident ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2013 #87

This message was self-deleted by its author markpkessinger Jan 2013 #146

I know the history. I watched it happen on TV. maxsolomon Jan 2013 #183

If you watched it on TV you did not get 20% of the story ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2013 #204

Poppy Bush. And a typo in a court appearance date Recursion Jan 2013 #14

Feds gave Weaver a bunch of time to walk out of his compound unarmed. Hoyt Jan 2013 #20

No, the first contact was when they shot his son Recursion Jan 2013 #25

They sat outside his compound for days. Then, sonny boy Hoyt Jan 2013 #29

This message was self-deleted by its author Recursion Jan 2013 #32

NM. I'm not going to re-hash that fiasco Recursion Jan 2013 #34

At least the feds meant right. Weaver was a vile person, and criminal. Hoyt Jan 2013 #36

And Lon Tomohisa Horiuchi sir pball Jan 2013 #179

I'm sure these guys will agree with you. Hoyt Jan 2013 #187

So you think it was reasonable and justifiable sir pball Jan 2013 #193

I think it was a bad choice for the racist gun runner to hide behind his wife and kids, and to send Hoyt Jan 2013 #198

It was definitely poor judgement sir pball Jan 2013 #199

There were repurcussions, quite serious ones? TheMadMonk Jan 2013 #206

Which is why the Feds paid them damages... ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2013 #63

Yes, you are defending weaver. Gerry Spence got the payment for the racist pig. Hoyt Jan 2013 #70

What total bullshit...you are playing fast and loose with the facts again. ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2013 #80

If weaver had not sold illegal guns to ayran nation, nothing would have happened. Hoyt Jan 2013 #89

Don't forget the false accusation by his neighbors... ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2013 #95

Marshals would not have been there except for weaver's love of guns and hatred of minorities. Hoyt Jan 2013 #100

You are my new DU favorite. galileoreloaded Jan 2013 #117

Bullshit. He has never defended Weaver. friendly_iconoclast Jan 2013 #121

You better check your facts (and guns) if you don't know that. Google if you must. Hoyt Jan 2013 #158

You made the claim, it's up to *you* to document it- and you haven't. friendly_iconoclast Jan 2013 #184

Seriously, you have no business near a gun. Hoyt Jan 2013 #186

I was referring to *your* slur of ProgressiveProfessor, here: friendly_iconoclast Jan 2013 #190

Well if the self-proclaimed "Professor" is not defending weaver, I'd like to know what he is doing. Hoyt Jan 2013 #192

Have you never heard the phrase "A pox on both your houses", Hoyt? friendly_iconoclast Jan 2013 #194

Poor little randy would never have encountered feds if he did not frequent ayran nation meetings, Hoyt Jan 2013 #197

The "compound" shit again? beevul Jan 2013 #200

Really? So if I say I don't support torture that means SomethingFishy Jan 2013 #209

There is not much worse than a racist who helps ayran nation., and teaches his family racist crap. Hoyt Jan 2013 #211

Do you support the militarization of the police? krispos42 Jan 2013 #148

Nope. Nor do I think all your guns help. Hoyt Jan 2013 #150

Yet you are arguing for a harsh and immediate police arrest. krispos42 Jan 2013 #151

Who is? Show me where I did that. Now, if you guys want to play randy weaver and not comply Hoyt Jan 2013 #159

The quicker the arrest, the lower the liklihood,... TheMadMonk Jan 2013 #207

Respectfully disagree. H2O Man Jan 2013 #178

"When you quote something like that, it is customary to give a link to the source." friendly_iconoclast Jan 2013 #185

The Feds ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2013 #59

The assholes who shot at Federal Marshals. Zoeisright Jan 2013 #67

You might want to read up on that a bit more ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2013 #88

Who wrote that Wiki article? Old and In the Way Jan 2013 #105

Its not binary situation. Weaver was scum AND the Feds fucked up horribly ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2013 #113

Your explanation is too nuanced for those of a Manichaean persuasion. friendly_iconoclast Jan 2013 #131

Assholes, to be sure... Lizzie Poppet Jan 2013 #91

Harris, who shot the federal marshal who died was not only acquitted on the basis of self defense ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2013 #102

Yes...yes...and yes. Lizzie Poppet Jan 2013 #104

the criminals... nt seabeyond Jan 2013 #168

Many. As the white male wanes, they will burn out violently. nt onehandle Jan 2013 #3

Now that is a profound statement. n/t vaberella Jan 2013 #78

Probably not but are you prepared to volunteer to take them out? nt jody Jan 2013 #4

I'd get frustrated and ask irrelevant, petulant questions too... LanternWaste Jan 2013 #13

That's what the feds are for, although I'm sure some of Gungeoneers would scream. Hoyt Jan 2013 #15

To which "feds" are you referring? Lizzie Poppet Jan 2013 #93

Actually lots in military are not racist right wingers. The RWers are easy to spot too. Hoyt Jan 2013 #94

The race card? I accept your surrender. Lizzie Poppet Jan 2013 #98

You are one claimed military is right wing. Had enough of the gungeon junk tonight. Hoyt Jan 2013 #106

They don't have a chance... onehandle Jan 2013 #33

Looks dangerous. How do you plan to get around the Posse Comitatus Act? nt jody Jan 2013 #39

That's pre-12/14 thinking. onehandle Jan 2013 #40

Are you seriously suggesting that the US military should bomb American cities... Taitertots Jan 2013 #58

Uh no, the suggestion is that if you enter a state of armed insurrection Warren Stupidity Jan 2013 #66

Ruby Ridge wasn't an armed insurrection Taitertots Jan 2013 #81

Any situation of legitimate, widespread insurrection... Lizzie Poppet Jan 2013 #99

The military is not population control. Really, neither are the police. TheKentuckian Jan 2013 #139

The masturbatory fantasy where the American Military kills Americans is reaching a fever pitch. cherokeeprogressive Jan 2013 #83

I wouldn't go that far, but some people would get schadenfreude from seeing their ideological... Taitertots Jan 2013 #90

All gleefully postulated by people who never served a day in their life. Lizzie Poppet Jan 2013 #101

Since you asked nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #128

On what date will Victory in Afghanistan Day be celebrated? friendly_iconoclast Jan 2013 #120

I will if it's on a weekend, is the pay good? snooper2 Jan 2013 #165

Pay rotten, governors and president will call up the unorganized militia. That's all males 17-45. nt jody Jan 2013 #167

but we are getting paid right? and I don't have a gun right now... snooper2 Jan 2013 #169

Omg! Hatchling Jan 2013 #188

In some cases it may. NutmegYankee Jan 2013 #5

You don't know about MOVE in Philadelphia, do you? Manifestor_of_Light Jan 2013 #42

I remember. I was young then and never regained my trust in govt. Mojorabbit Jan 2013 #62

Congrats! Old and In the Way Jan 2013 #107

I was Mojorabbit Jan 2013 #109

I didn't. NutmegYankee Jan 2013 #116

No, I don't Fresh_Start Jan 2013 #6

No. The great majority of them are cowards. nt bluestate10 Jan 2013 #8

Absolutely, particularly those wearing medals earned in combat. Have you volunteered already to help jody Jan 2013 #10

Your support of armed up racists milita types is duly noted, and expected. Hoyt Jan 2013 #18

Will *you* be joining up to fight the "armed up racists milita types" ? friendly_iconoclast Jan 2013 #122

If the government wants you dead, you're dead DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2013 #19

DisgustipatedinCA have you volunteered? nt jody Jan 2013 #21

I volunteered for military service DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2013 #26

Not inane question at all. My posts are all to #8. nt jody Jan 2013 #30

Did you notice the killings in Paris? ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2013 #114

In 1789? Yes, I took note. Why? DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2013 #115

The ones yesterday...3 Kurdish women who were activists. ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2013 #118

Which veterans wearing medals earned in combat do you believe will be making violent threats? LanternWaste Jan 2013 #22

LanternWaste have you volunteered? nt jody Jan 2013 #23

Have you answered the question? LanternWaste Jan 2013 #24

I'll put you down as a non-volunteer. If you're male, 17-45 you're part of the militia anyway. jody Jan 2013 #27

I registered for and stood in the draft during the last years of the Vietnam conflict. I lost a bluestate10 Jan 2013 #72

LOL people who are really brave don't call others cowards. Probably a clerk in basic. nt jody Jan 2013 #76

Seriously fuckedup thinking. GeorgeGist Jan 2013 #84

Look. Whenever I should have been a coward, I haven't been. I am not a superman, I bluestate10 Jan 2013 #85

Just so I understand.... Old and In the Way Jan 2013 #110

Would not doubt it. Some of the Gungeoneers are big randy weaver apologists. Hoyt Jan 2013 #9

Randy Weaver was a racist scumbag Recursion Jan 2013 #16

A good summary ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2013 #97

Some few will almost certainly do some stupid shit, stochastic terrorism you know.. Fumesucker Jan 2013 #11

It's the non-loudmouths that will be a greater problem. friendly_iconoclast Jan 2013 #123

A few, maybe. Hopefully the FBI and ATF have learned since then (nt) Recursion Jan 2013 #12

Its taught as a example of what never to do again ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2013 #65

Sporadic, isolated incidents of violence are almost a certainty. LongTomH Jan 2013 #17

It could. Plenty of "militiamen" in my state of PA. WinkyDink Jan 2013 #28

Largely *because of* Ruby Ridge Recursion Jan 2013 #37

Could be but did you ever see the guys that are in these so called Militias doc03 Jan 2013 #31

Problem is, they'll just commit hate crimes against innocent people. Hoyt Jan 2013 #38

for once, you and I agree.. SQUEE Jan 2013 #44

That's why we need to get tough on guns now. Hoyt Jan 2013 #47

hardly I am the same as I ever was. SQUEE Jan 2013 #51

Yeah, arming up to shoot fellow citizens isn't "dehumanizing." Hoyt Jan 2013 #64

Unless it's the Feds doing the shooting, amirite? friendly_iconoclast Jan 2013 #130

That is an unfair, inaccurate description. Frank Cannon Jan 2013 #135

The only response by the government to the gun guts and militiapersons who screech stultusporcos Jan 2013 #35

Wow! Just.... Wow! Glassunion Jan 2013 #43

So, are you hawk on any one besides your fellow citizens? SQUEE Jan 2013 #46

Post removed Post removed Jan 2013 #69

As per the the 2nd Amendment...the gun humpers ought to parade on the Commons Old and In the Way Jan 2013 #112

You would LOSE your bet stultusporcos Jan 2013 #156

Really? I used the word most.. you, me and a few others may be vets.. SQUEE Jan 2013 #162

War is a terriable thing and is something I would not look forward to seeing again stultusporcos Jan 2013 #202

You gonna be volunteering for the job? friendly_iconoclast Jan 2013 #124

Randy Weaver is still alive, and is a million dollars richer thanks to his lawsuit Recursion Jan 2013 #41

He probably went and spent that million bucks on guns. Hope he's enjoying them. kestrel91316 Jan 2013 #48

Well, the US Marshalls saw to that, I guess (nt) Recursion Jan 2013 #52

That's your wish for him? Bay Boy Jan 2013 #71

No. Sorry. People like him NEVER learn. He will be filled with hate until the day kestrel91316 Jan 2013 #201

I don't see weaver as some one to aspire, no matter how much he scammed from society. Hoyt Jan 2013 #50

Like I said, he's a racist scumbag Recursion Jan 2013 #53

You won't get me to cry for poor old randy, Zimmerman, cowboys, or milita types. Hoyt Jan 2013 #60

Actually it was 100K to him and $1M each to his children, $3.1 in total ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2013 #82

Do you think all thes gun grabbers spewing hysterical nonsense will lead to gun law reform? cleanhippie Jan 2013 #45

I'm surprised we haven't had something like that happen already. backscatter712 Jan 2013 #49

Critical difference: at that time the BATF was out of control Demo_Chris Jan 2013 #73

Thank you for your post. amandabeech Jan 2013 #154

Bill Clinton was not president when Ruby Ridge happened. Mr.Bill Jan 2013 #77

Good chance of it IMO. n/t RKP5637 Jan 2013 #54

Such an incident would only hurt their case. liberal N proud Jan 2013 #55

Yes, and DonCoquixote Jan 2013 #56

And would this situation kill 11,000 this year? randr Jan 2013 #57

It very easily might Demo_Chris Jan 2013 #61

Declare extremists US terrorists and covertly take them into custody larkrake Jan 2013 #68

Define extremeist. Glassunion Jan 2013 #125

I think your understanding of the law is a bit off. TheKentuckian Jan 2013 #137

At some point, the way it is going, some people will do something stupid quaker bill Jan 2013 #74

The British Army thought their deployment to Northern Ireland in 1969 would be a temporary one. friendly_iconoclast Jan 2013 #129

Poor examples quaker bill Jan 2013 #157

Aaah, but *which* government would be popular? State or Federal? friendly_iconoclast Jan 2013 #205

We have been there and done that quaker bill Jan 2013 #208

Hell no. Threats are all they're good for. ancianita Jan 2013 #75

+++++++ haikugal Jan 2013 #108

Define your idea of "gun owner"; is this simply anyone who owns a gun? Glassunion Jan 2013 #126

I don't mean all gun owners, but the OP doesn't define "gun nuts making threats," either. There is ancianita Jan 2013 #132

Thank you for your post. Glassunion Jan 2013 #136

Glad we agree on some things here. I'm not a gun owner at present, but I'd know how to handle ancianita Jan 2013 #138

Agreed. nt Glassunion Jan 2013 #140

Nnnnnnope. cherokeeprogressive Jan 2013 #79

I'd like to know why people keep dropping these Jazzgirl Jan 2013 #86

You just answered your billh58 Jan 2013 #96

When you pull the pin on a hand grenade and drop it, do you stand close or do you run like hell? Glassunion Jan 2013 #127

Maybe because people equate gun ownership and use issues with life and death issues. ancianita Jan 2013 #133

If everyone was guaranteed that big of a payday... ileus Jan 2013 #92

Yes, and more. We will have small timers shooting someone of note. Buzz Clik Jan 2013 #103

The threats actually started as soon as Obama was sworn into office rightsideout Jan 2013 #111

Something bad is brewing and it is getting worse. SummerSnow Jan 2013 #177

yep, it's just a question of when quinnox Jan 2013 #119

Turning your guns on your own countrymen, instead of your legitimate enemies who've wrecked ancianita Jan 2013 #134

Uh...most gun onwners will just hide them. HooptieWagon Jan 2013 #142

I'm not in the group that want confiscation or the end of the 2nd Amendment. I'm in the group of ancianita Jan 2013 #143

My mistake then. HooptieWagon Jan 2013 #153

Also, I don't think you're responding to whomever you think you're responding to. Reread the ancianita Jan 2013 #144

Its probable that a few mentally ill people will decide to commit suicide by cop. HooptieWagon Jan 2013 #141

I sure HOPE so. geomon666 Jan 2013 #145

National? No. Here and there, yes. n/t markpkessinger Jan 2013 #147

It's happened before and the country hasn't gotten any saner since. n/t Crunchy Frog Jan 2013 #149

What gun nuts are these that you are speaking of? rl6214 Jan 2013 #152

I really doubt it. ZombieHorde Jan 2013 #155

SMH Mr Dixon Jan 2013 #160

So let me understand this... billh58 Jan 2013 #161

SMH Mr Dixon Jan 2013 #170

No, but billh58 Jan 2013 #172

Funny i guess Mr Dixon Jan 2013 #171

Don't own a gun billh58 Jan 2013 #173

The sooner we crush those nuts the better PoliticalBiker Jan 2013 #163

I noticed many on DU are all for the power of the federal government when a Democrat is in office. Puzzledtraveller Jan 2013 #164

And that's a bad thing billh58 Jan 2013 #174

But it won't always be the case, and when they are in office and start the crackdown Puzzledtraveller Jan 2013 #180

Are you sure that billh58 Jan 2013 #181

Dont resort to that bull Puzzledtraveller Jan 2013 #191

Not bull billh58 Jan 2013 #195

Oh, come ON. Stop engaging hypotheticals against pragmatic discussions about real world gun misuse. ancianita Jan 2013 #196

National? No SpartanDem Jan 2013 #166

Yes. And it will be commandeered secretly by the NRA. Kablooie Jan 2013 #175

wish we could have droned timid tim before he killed all those babies graham4anything Jan 2013 #176

no, they'll go to jail. farminator3000 Jan 2013 #182

These phonies couldn't kill anything. Dash87 Jan 2013 #189

A lot of little ridges, but there are a lot of nuts in this country. juxtaposed Jan 2013 #203

Yes nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #210