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happyslug

(14,779 posts)
151. You are missing how serious the fuel shortage was post 1941
Sun Jan 13, 2013, 03:25 AM
Jan 2013

A German Infantry DIVISION on its way to Stalingrad were only issued 10% of what had been standard issue pre-War. This was to save the fuel for the Armor and Air forces (The standard was three Infantry divisions to each Armour Division). Supplies came by coal fired steam trains. From the train-heads to the front trucks were used, in good weather, but to the actual units fighting it was all by horse drawn wagon. During the Freeze, Winter and Thaw, Horse draw wagons were preferred (horse drawn wagons did better in the subsequent mud during the Thaw and Freeze). Horses lasted three to six months on the front, at that point they had to to be withdrawn to recover, they would lose that much weight and either had to go back, or they just died, either way the unit needed new horses.

I bring this up, for in the movies the German troops are moving around in trucks and VW Kabelwagens, but rarely on horse or on foot. The US Army, during WWII, ended up using 2 1/2 ton trucks to move troops. The US kept them in Motor pools, but ended up one truck per infantry platoon, to haul the equipment of the platoon and its three squads. The Germans could NOT do this and thus retain the traditional one mule to squad (Mules was preferred but horses were used when Mules could NOT be obtained). The Platoon, Company and higher levels also used horses for hauling supplies. Through the Germans only maintain one horse mounted calvary Divisional unit unit during the war, and it was switched to vehicles late 1944. The reason for this was by 1942 the Germans were recruiting Russians and Ukrainians to fight on horse back for them, using them NOT only in Russia, but in Italy and Normandy.

Each German Infantry Division had ten infantry battalions, one of which used bicycles for greater maneuverability, these bicycle battalions were from after 1941, to replace truck units, the other nine battalions walked into combat.

I bring the above up for its shows how bad the fuel situation was for the German Army after 1941. The German army just did NOT have the fuel to move any unit QUICKLY outside the front lines. Fuel for Trucks were used in important operations (For example the Germans moving Croat Troops (Who technically were also fighting the Germans) when their leader agree to help the Germans against Tito's forces. Thus trucks and fuel was available, if high enough priority. For example the Death Camps used trucks during 1942, but then built a rail siding from the local rail head to the camp.

In a pinch troops can march 50 miles in a day on foot, but average about 10, if little or no opposition, less if serious opposition occurs. Thus Germany lost control effective control over any area behind their lines if it was more then 10 miles from a rail-line. Worse the need for horses on the front, and the resistance to sell to the Germans their horses by the Poles and French, horse mounted troops were NOT an option. Thus it was Infantry on foot or on bicycles.

Thus most of Poland more the 10 miles from a Rail line OR 20 miles from the actual front, were beyond German Control. This gave the Poles some safe locations to operate from (through not as much as the Serbs under Tito). The lost of Control in Rural France is under reported, but given the more extensive rail lines in France, less then in Eastern Europe(this is related to the rural Right wing and Communist infighting in France during WWII).

Weapons were needed, but so was organization. This is where France, Italy and Serbia had an advantage over Poland, all but Poland had a strong Communist Party before WWII, and it was the Communist Party that did most of the resistance during WWII. The Poles had a problem, to far from England and Stalin did not trust them. Thus no Weapons for the Poles. The Polish Home Army tried to organize the resistance, but then committed itself to freeing Warsaw.

In addition to weapons, a Resistance group MUST have a place to retreat to, to patch its wounds. This can move around if need be. The lost of Control over Rural areas of Poland, Serbia, Italy and France permitted such "safe areas" to exists. The Germans, after 1941, could close any area down, but not for long and then not more then one at a time. The US ran across a similar situation in Vietnam, we could close down one such safe area for the Viet Cong, then when US Forces left, the Viet Cong would return. Same thing in Iraq, and Afghanistan. Prior to 1941, the Germans had the fuel to destroy such safe havens, and keep out any returning resistance troops, but could NOT do that after 1941. Thus resistance was possible after 1941, but not before.

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Cheers For The Rude One, Sir The Magistrate Jan 2013 #1
unfortunately RP is also feeding you half truths. nt Das Wort Jan 2013 #125
Oh, Do, Please, Instruct Me On the History Of the Period, Sir... The Magistrate Jan 2013 #129
"Das Wort"? Paladin Jan 2013 #134
! cyberswede Jan 2013 #141
Gehe nach Osten für das Vaterland hlthe2b Jan 2013 #142
Huge K&R Hugabear Jan 2013 #2
Simply admire the Rude one's ability to nail it to the wall every damn time. rustydog Jan 2013 #3
it's a messy whitewash article using half truths and exaggerations. Das Wort Jan 2013 #136
hmm...who to believe... cyberswede Jan 2013 #143
Shrug. closeupready Jan 2013 #4
K&R, along with a Takei-esque "OH, MY! This thread has epic potential indeed!" bullwinkle428 Jan 2013 #5
Lee, they're not gonna believe you leftyohiolib Jan 2013 #6
Let me just say.. russspeakeasy Jan 2013 #7
Well done! Nt xchrom Jan 2013 #8
Buts our Delicate Flowers NEEDS... 99Forever Jan 2013 #9
I'm a little fearful, that the people they're arming against,... TheMadMonk Jan 2013 #40
History SCVDem Jan 2013 #10
Gotta luv the Rudie! JEB Jan 2013 #11
Gun owners = nazis!!! Spryguy Jan 2013 #56
Actually there are many responsible gun owners. JEB Jan 2013 #99
Thanks for the lesson AnnieK401 Jan 2013 #12
Rudie nails it as usual malaise Jan 2013 #13
The most effective weapon in 20th century insurgencies was NOT the firearm, but the mine, alcibiades_mystery Jan 2013 #14
Actually your history is a little off. happyslug Jan 2013 #79
I appreciate the time you devoted to this, and the detail you added alcibiades_mystery Jan 2013 #85
You are missing how serious the fuel shortage was post 1941 happyslug Jan 2013 #151
good accurate info. nt Das Wort Jan 2013 #126
100+ Claybrains Jan 2013 #15
Love the Rude one. zeemike Jan 2013 #16
gun nuts make up their own facts - thanks for pointing this out samsingh Jan 2013 #17
I attended a "gun show", I'd say 15 years ago DefenseLawyer Jan 2013 #18
Wow - gun humpers LIE? Zoeisright Jan 2013 #19
'gun humpers' Indeed...many have amuse bouche Jan 2013 #69
Rude Louise Pundit! Aristus Jan 2013 #20
K&R X 1000 (nt) Paladin Jan 2013 #21
"Its a nearly silent whoosh. you hear it? You think your semi-automatic whatever could stop it?".... Pachamama Jan 2013 #22
These guys, Jones etc, are the master gun salesmen Dont call me Shirley Jan 2013 #38
Sure, drones smacking into CONUS neighborhoods will go over real well with the general public... Elron Aven Jan 2013 #76
You missed the point. blackspade Jan 2013 #89
k+r! TeamPooka Jan 2013 #23
Fail - "even if they did ban all Jews from owning guns" FBaggins Jan 2013 #24
That Law, Sir, had Nothing To Do With the Deaths Of German Jews The Magistrate Jan 2013 #26
How? FBaggins Jan 2013 #28
That's ludicrous Hugabear Jan 2013 #30
It is Not My Duty To Educate You, Sir The Magistrate Jan 2013 #33
WOLVERINES! Hugabear Jan 2013 #36
wonderful, Sir and thank you. BlancheSplanchnik Jan 2013 #52
Well taught, well said garthranzz Jan 2013 #70
Good Links, Sir: Thank You For Putting Them Up, People Should Read Them The Magistrate Jan 2013 #73
"The Jews of Germany were in a way the lucky ones" ??? FBaggins Jan 2013 #93
All You Are Doing Is Showing Your Ignorance, Sir The Magistrate Jan 2013 #100
I have a feeling that a billh58 Jan 2013 #105
Amen. ellisonz Jan 2013 #110
Of course it isn't. But you should at least support your claim. No? FBaggins Jan 2013 #91
Like the NRA and so many of its supporters, billh58 Jan 2013 #95
"Ask yourself what Hitler's purpose was in putting that law into place." thucythucy Jan 2013 #96
I refer you to The Magistrate's excellent summary. FBaggins Jan 2013 #101
And you support the billh58 Jan 2013 #104
To which Magistrate post thucythucy Jan 2013 #116
Sound Points, Ma'am The Magistrate Jan 2013 #122
Just to let you know, thucythucy Jan 2013 #127
I Saw That, Ma'am : Figured It was Kindest Just To Leave It Alone.... The Magistrate Jan 2013 #133
Okay, thanks. thucythucy Jan 2013 #137
One sided LiberalLovinLug Jan 2013 #31
Not really. FBaggins Jan 2013 #92
The Nazis took everything away from the Jews - including their guns. baldguy Jan 2013 #83
I'll tell ya what ... if the government ever acts to confiscate guns ... brett_jv Jan 2013 #94
You're missing the difference between laws and constitutional protections. FBaggins Jan 2013 #97
you are correct. The 1938 weapons act Das Wort Jan 2013 #128
Astoundingly.... DaveJ Jan 2013 #25
The VC and NVA lost over a Million Killed and most were never found. formercia Jan 2013 #29
The PAVN were in all respects a modern mechanized army alcibiades_mystery Jan 2013 #41
Hitler did restrict who could own a gun shiningseas1971 Jan 2013 #27
It appears as if you failed to read the OP, which clearly states what you just wrote. nt Javaman Jan 2013 #90
correct-a-mundo Das Wort Jan 2013 #135
So, that means Obama is worse than Hitler. MrSlayer Jan 2013 #32
Here's some of the "Nazi shit that shows up at gun shows:" LongTomH Jan 2013 #34
Such a disconnect LiberalLovinLug Jan 2013 #37
Swastikas is the Mark Of a Patriotic American, Sir...Where Have You Been Hiding? The Magistrate Jan 2013 #39
The Aryan Nations billh58 Jan 2013 #49
Honestly, Sir: They Are Our Patriotic Bulwark Against...Us.... The Magistrate Jan 2013 #50
They're just collectors!!! ellisonz Jan 2013 #44
However, interest in Confederate and Nazi memorabilia in itself Art_from_Ark Jan 2013 #71
certainly, collection of war related items has nothing to do with ideology. nt Das Wort Jan 2013 #131
Collecting Swastika Items, Sir, Generally Indicates A Fascination With Nazism, And Is Seldom Healthy The Magistrate Jan 2013 #138
So Lemmy of Motorhead is a fascist then? truebrit71 Jan 2013 #144
Never Met The Man, Sir: I Could Not Say The Magistrate Jan 2013 #145
The first Nazi coin I ever owned, Art_from_Ark Jan 2013 #147
I Understand, Sir The Magistrate Jan 2013 #148
vexillology is a perfectly valid activity... Elron Aven Jan 2013 #80
"Gun troll that thinks an interest in Nazi paraphernalia is a "perfectly valid activity." - Skinner ellisonz Jan 2013 #139
The root ideology of Nazism and the Confederacy were the same: thucythucy Jan 2013 #98
I love the rude pundit RedstDem Jan 2013 #35
There are a number of DU's regular gungeoneers conspicuously absent from this thread... Electric Monk Jan 2013 #42
They're probably "playing" with their guns. ellisonz Jan 2013 #43
Reminds me of a scene from "Shoot Em Up" Tempest Jan 2013 #102
Jews -- Gun Control -- and the Nazis holdencaufield Jan 2013 #45
I like the part where he says " ... even if they did ban all Jews from owning guns" in the first Tuesday Afternoon Jan 2013 #47
And this is an argument against practical gun control in the 21st Century United States? ellisonz Jan 2013 #51
Another tangent -- called it holdencaufield Jan 2013 #53
I repeat: And this is an argument against practical gun control in the 21st Century United States? ellisonz Jan 2013 #55
Also - this is a contradiction: ellisonz Jan 2013 #57
When I fellate something ... holdencaufield Jan 2013 #58
That's just wrong. ellisonz Jan 2013 #59
When it comes to contemporary antisemitism ... holdencaufield Jan 2013 #60
So you think the OP is antisemitic? ellisonz Jan 2013 #61
Non sequitur holdencaufield Jan 2013 #62
Bahaha ellisonz Jan 2013 #64
I Suspect He Meant 'Aggravating Factor', Sir The Magistrate Jan 2013 #66
That's probably the case (pre-emptive Oy Vey) ellisonz Jan 2013 #67
"No one is saying that Gun Control advocates are Nazis, Nazi sympathizers or anything in that vein." baldguy Jan 2013 #84
True, Sir, Especially With The 'Hitler Was a Leftist' Line So Popular With 'Team NRA' Types.... The Magistrate Jan 2013 #103
holdencaufield, that wasn't RP's point. DaveJ Jan 2013 #86
"[Hitler] was an evil psychotic gun lover." thucythucy Jan 2013 #117
"you are a traitor and kind of a dick" Politicub Jan 2013 #46
My favorite line in the whole article too. Curmudgeoness Jan 2013 #48
This is very informative but Jesus with strapon was a bit much eom LiberalElite Jan 2013 #54
The writer was the Rude Pundit. Statements like that are par for the course. Other than bluestate10 Jan 2013 #63
But you certainly can't bother the gun nuts or LaPierrs with facts! Initech Jan 2013 #65
As a pro-gun liberal AtheistCrusader Jan 2013 #68
But why did Weimar do it? Elron Aven Jan 2013 #78
You cannot follow history if you are living a life of denial and paranoia. Rex Jan 2013 #72
K&R. )nt( Kurovski Jan 2013 #74
Are you sure about the Versaille Treaty? Elron Aven Jan 2013 #75
It is certain the treaty disarmed Germany Gibbon Jan 2013 #81
Rec Larrymoe Curlyshemp Jan 2013 #77
The Nazis did stage a coup Gibbon Jan 2013 #82
Good catch, and welcome to DU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DainBramaged Jan 2013 #115
+1000 blackspade Jan 2013 #87
Closer to home actually was the rise of the NRA and the KKK, hand in hand n/t Sunlei Jan 2013 #88
Are you really ip5683 Jan 2013 #106
You May Have Made the Most Ignorant and Idiotic Statement In This Thread Yet, Fella.... The Magistrate Jan 2013 #109
He jumps, he shoots...... DainBramaged Jan 2013 #113
And yet another troll billh58 Jan 2013 #123
Check some real history ip5683 Jan 2013 #107
Call that History, Sweet-Heart? that Ain't History --- This Is History.... The Magistrate Jan 2013 #108
American Rifleman vol 149, we know fucking NRA propaganda when we see it DainBramaged Jan 2013 #111
Waiting For Alert Results Now, Sir The Magistrate Jan 2013 #112
They simply think we are robots like they are, amazing DainBramaged Jan 2013 #114
This NRA troll billh58 Jan 2013 #119
Jury Botched It, Sir, But Notes To M.I.R.T. Put Them On It The Magistrate Jan 2013 #120
Thanks for all billh58 Jan 2013 #121
Isn't it amazing how contaminated the jury process is? DainBramaged Jan 2013 #130
What's MIRT? garthranzz Jan 2013 #149
The Malicious Intruder Removal Team ellisonz Jan 2013 #150
Real history billh58 Jan 2013 #118
I have specific insight Das Wort Jan 2013 #124
OK we're looking forward to that, especially the word for the day.... DainBramaged Jan 2013 #132
We Wait With Bated Breath, Schatzi.... The Magistrate Jan 2013 #140
So Near, And Yet so Far.... The Magistrate Jan 2013 #146
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