General Discussion

intaglio

(8,170 posts)

129. As you, yourself, have pointed out

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 04:13 AM

Jan 2013

the area required is only for regular, 20% efficiency PV. Go to 40% and the area required halves. Use roofs and parking lots and the virgin land goes down. Cover over fly waste tips, oil sands excavations and other polluted areas then even less undeveloped land is needed.

The other thing you are missing is that even current generation methods use a variety of energy sources. Coal, gas, nuclear and hydro are all used currently and multiple renewable sources will be needed in future. Factor wind, tidal stream and hydro - down goes the land area required again.

The big problem is that storage is essential. It might be necessary to use some current hydro as pumped storage but local storage will also be hugely important. I have a suspicion that Elon Musk is producing the Tesla not solely for the motoring side but largely for the battery technology. Currently the Roadster has a pack capable of delivering 215 kW from a pack weighing 450 kg and occupying about 0.25 cu metre.

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New Report: Solar could provide 100% of world's energy needs by 2050 using only 1% of world's land [View all] FourScore Jan 2013 OP

And the oil rich nations? aquart Jan 2013 #1

Pay 'em off! Get them into the solar array business! randome Jan 2013 #3

Luckily we've sold them plenty of weapons so when their economies go to shit... progressoid Jan 2013 #12

They're located at the best places adieu Jan 2013 #32

Who the fuck cares? Zoeisright Jan 2013 #57

like us?? there's still plenty of uses for oil NMDemDist2 Jan 2013 #74

Cover 'em up! NYC_SKP Jan 2013 #99

Why, they can go pound sand. Occulus Jan 2013 #126

Truly good news riverbendviewgal Jan 2013 #2

1% of the land we have now or 1% of what will be left after the ice caps melt? Motown_Johnny Jan 2013 #4

But wouldn't that require about 300% of the world's Lanthanides? Recursion Jan 2013 #5

Whatever is needed can probably be synthetically created. randome Jan 2013 #8

I'm all for a "Man on the Moon" goal for renewable energy Recursion Jan 2013 #10

I think that could be done but it would be more like WWII level of societal effort Fumesucker Jan 2013 #14

Yeah. I wish things other than imminent death brought that out in people Recursion Jan 2013 #15

Or a fake Ozymandious invasion, ala Watchmen. randome Jan 2013 #16

No. We cannot "synthetically create" various elements jberryhill Jan 2013 #20

i don't think you can synthetically create elements. ret5hd Jan 2013 #53

Actually, the moon would be the best place to put solar arrays. xtraxritical Jan 2013 #128

Why on earth would you want to use lanthanides? jberryhill Jan 2013 #19

Have they fixed that in the last 6 years? Recursion Jan 2013 #21

They are used in certain exotic PV's jberryhill Jan 2013 #23

Cool, thanks. Recursion Jan 2013 #25

And how much usable energy tama Jan 2013 #30

Easy..... paleotn Jan 2013 #56

But the exotic PVs have higher efficiency Confusious Jan 2013 #31

And the Tesla is a great car jberryhill Jan 2013 #35

What about land area Confusious Jan 2013 #37

Oh, I thought I got the land for free jberryhill Jan 2013 #49

Agenda 21? Confusious Jan 2013 #65

Shhhh... jberryhill Jan 2013 #66

Roofs? Parking lots? and then of course vacant land. A lot here, a lot there in parts of JDPriestly Jan 2013 #86

You think cities take up 1% of the land mass of the United States Confusious Jan 2013 #108

Cities and desert lands. JDPriestly Jan 2013 #119

There's a lot Confusious Jan 2013 #122

We'll find the will. JDPriestly Jan 2013 #127

As you, yourself, have pointed out intaglio Jan 2013 #129

20+% is no longer exotic, it's mainstream for SunPower. 44% is exotic. NYC_SKP Jan 2013 #36

Yea, I said that's what the report is based on Confusious Jan 2013 #38

Got it. Also, I'm confident that the 1% figure is too great. NYC_SKP Jan 2013 #45

But if we use 1% BSlappedInvisibleHan Jan 2013 #60

We need just 1/6000th the land surface at 100% efficiency. NYC_SKP Jan 2013 #64

An in the opposite corner, JDPriestly Jan 2013 #88

Ah, well, I didn't know there was a PV technology assumption in the report jberryhill Jan 2013 #50

What about Eastern California where it's mostly desert? MessiahRp Jan 2013 #93

California is a long way from the east coast Confusious Jan 2013 #107

There's a lot of unused land in the US right now. We could make this work if we wanted to. MessiahRp Jan 2013 #109

Is there any land that has absolutly nothing on it Confusious Jan 2013 #111

I'm sure there is. Also, rooftops in cities... MessiahRp Jan 2013 #112

Yea, but as my other post pointed out Confusious Jan 2013 #123

Now imagine ... 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2013 #6

Dream on! randome Jan 2013 #9

Thanks ... 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2013 #22

People who think solar energy is unrealistic do not live in Arizona, New Mexico or Southern JDPriestly Jan 2013 #89

Or ... 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2013 #96

Hellz yeah! NoOneMan Jan 2013 #7

Have teh solerz saved YOU yet? Systematic Chaos Jan 2013 #75

It isn't as if I don't "believe" in solar NoOneMan Jan 2013 #106

I got ya. I feel exactly the way you do. Systematic Chaos Jan 2013 #113

Do the necessary elements exist in such quantity on Earth? cthulu2016 Jan 2013 #11

My math could be wrong.... NCTraveler Jan 2013 #13

A quarter of Arizona Confusious Jan 2013 #33

But you put the panels on roofs and buildings and parking lots as well as desert land. JDPriestly Jan 2013 #90

I think that is a big question. NCTraveler Jan 2013 #95

We will probably need to do some of each. Homes, schools and desert solar ranches. JDPriestly Jan 2013 #116

Adding up the area of every city Confusious Jan 2013 #110

But that land isn't hard to find in the deserts of the Southwest. JDPriestly Jan 2013 #115

There are some large plants, like the cactus. Confusious Jan 2013 #121

And Joshua trees, but that can be dealt with. JDPriestly Jan 2013 #125

1% of world's land is a lot of land cpwm17 Jan 2013 #17

About 575,000 square miles I believe onenote Jan 2013 #26

And not only that, if one of the worlds volcanoes erupts, solar efficiencies could/will plummet. RC Jan 2013 #48

About 1 percent of the U.S. landmass is covered by pavement daleo Jan 2013 #78

Time To Finally Aim That Way colsohlibgal Jan 2013 #18

Why do you think belief has anything to do with the problem we face? NoOneMan Jan 2013 #24

Yep. However..... AverageJoe90 Jan 2013 #52

that would be awesome samsingh Jan 2013 #27

Not until I receive my promised flying car Brother Buzz Jan 2013 #28

But where is storage tech today? longship Jan 2013 #29

Hydrogen, pumped hydro... (nt) NYC_SKP Jan 2013 #34

Electrolysis of sea water, I was thinking. longship Jan 2013 #55

You do realize that seawater has to be distilled Confusious Jan 2013 #69

That may be true, but the water can also be used for other purposes as well. longship Jan 2013 #70

Yes, but there's a reason it's only used when there's no other choice Confusious Jan 2013 #71

Very true... longship Jan 2013 #73

We're using pumped hydro right now with Diablo Canyon nuke power at night. NYC_SKP Jan 2013 #81

Cool, let me clarify "loser" longship Jan 2013 #83

Electric cars would help store the power and keep the grid going at night. Also don't forget wind. rightsideout Jan 2013 #42

Solar Two was a start green for victory Jan 2013 #61

And now... Amonester Jan 2013 #85

Didn't I see this on the news in the '80s? dorkulon Jan 2013 #39

Solar (and other "emerging" technologies) are why we need government Spike89 Jan 2013 #40

Good point, and very true. n/t AverageJoe90 Jan 2013 #43

Everybody knows computers will be better and cheaper next year, does that inhibit PoliticAverse Jan 2013 #79

Actually it did for a long time Spike89 Jan 2013 #117

Who could imagined that we could get energy from the Sun Rosa Luxemburg Jan 2013 #41

Sad!! Lobo27 Jan 2013 #44

Energy needs or electricity needs? nxylas Jan 2013 #46

Make it so Berlum Jan 2013 #47

Daily Kos diarist got it wrong; not 'worldwide', in selected locations muriel_volestrangler Jan 2013 #51

Shhh! Don't upset the nukers with such ideas. It doesn't fit into the future of life on leveymg Jan 2013 #54

While the US was executing the PNAC plan, Germany became the leader in PV green for victory Jan 2013 #58

Here's Olmedilla de Alarc�n Spain green for victory Jan 2013 #72

Storage Storage Storage upi402 Jan 2013 #59

please see #61 green for victory Jan 2013 #62

Electrolysis: 2H2O -> 2H2 + O2 longship Jan 2013 #63

"I do not think we have a long time before we all realize that this needs to be top priority" green for victory Jan 2013 #67

Smart grid entails proprietary protocol problems upi402 Jan 2013 #131

Except they will never be allowed to build it because of a few endangered species n2doc Jan 2013 #68

I don't see desert ecosystems "doing just fine." joshcryer Jan 2013 #76

Possibilities aren't necessarily realities. Fossil fuels remain most profitable. joshcryer Jan 2013 #77

Actually, less than 1/10 of 1% of the planet. 0.08% with 20% efficient modules. NYC_SKP Jan 2013 #80

Installing solar over previously undeveloped land... hunter Jan 2013 #82

Yours is the classic blindness. NYC_SKP Jan 2013 #84

What's the downside we have to worry about? The2ndWheel Jan 2013 #97

No argument here. NYC_SKP Jan 2013 #98

Nope, got the right post The2ndWheel Jan 2013 #100

With this many people, it boils down to the lesser of evils. NYC_SKP Jan 2013 #101

+1 XemaSab Jan 2013 #87

wait so putting pv on rooftops is destroying more land? uponit7771 Jan 2013 #92

"world" by 2050? moondust Jan 2013 #91

But we only need to cover 1% of the oceans with oil slicks to do it with oil' grahamhgreen Jan 2013 #94

The problem is that the global economy doesn't work that way. GliderGuider Jan 2013 #102

The global economy CAN work that way if enough international cooperation gets underway. randome Jan 2013 #103

Let me know how that works out. GliderGuider Jan 2013 #104

YOU are the alternative power! farminator3000 Jan 2013 #105

Yes, now please Matariki Jan 2013 #114

check out the solar towers here- going up in AZ and TX, i think. pretty f'in cool! farminator3000 Jan 2013 #118

also MIT is doing 3-D solar panels farminator3000 Jan 2013 #120

The EnviroMission tower is expected to be completed in 2015 farminator3000 Jan 2013 #124

Thin metallic film, nanoparticles, plasmonics, supramolecules upi402 Jan 2013 #130

K&R farminator3000 Jan 2013 #132