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seabeyond

(110,159 posts) Sat Jan 19, 2013, 12:04 PM Jan 2013

do men, who do not believe in white male privilege/entitlement oppose affirmative action? [View all]

i ask this because last night my teenage son came to me telling me about the NFL discussing no african american was hired as a coach this year. that it is wrong. they need to hire black coaches every year to get a balance or something.

he was telling me in his view, that if no black coach was as capable as a white, that they should not have to hire a black coach.

he said they are for the win, for the money and they would naturally hire the best person for the job. that it was not about racism.

i had to explain to him, again, about privilege and entitlement. that men who are not racist are still raised in a culture of privilege and entitlement and that they do not always recognize they are denying blacks jobs. but, through those two conditionings, they automatically go to the white person. and that is why we have affirmative action.

i gave him examples and one was a study done on names written on applications. white sounding names got call backs over 50% of black sounding names even when a black sounding name was more qualified.

so, this has me thinking. if you do not believe in privilege and entitlement, i would think you would have to oppose affirmative action.

113 replies

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do men, who do not believe in white male privilege/entitlement oppose affirmative action? [View all] seabeyond Jan 2013 OP

I think they mostly do Generic Other Jan 2013 #1

then i would think that would just be another reason that it would be hard to get white males seabeyond Jan 2013 #2

I've never understood the "as capable" thing Recursion Jan 2013 #3

ya. in my job i did a lot of hiring. the whole comparative "as capable". but, there seabeyond Jan 2013 #5

Yep. Affirmative action counteracts negative action. gollygee Jan 2013 #11

I guess sales jobs are quantifiable Recursion Jan 2013 #24

I think the NFL should hire the best canidate. Travis_0004 Jan 2013 #4

Best is as much qualitative as quantitative MattBaggins Jan 2013 #23

How does the OP explain that about 70% of NFL players are black? Racism in coaching, merit on the Romulox Jan 2013 #6

big difference between the front office jobs and head coach, and the players on the field. seabeyond Jan 2013 #9

"Big difference" doesn't explain why the players are selected for merit, but coaches aren't. Romulox Jan 2013 #15

as i said, i think that there is a conscious and unconscious belief that white male own those seabeyond Jan 2013 #20

When you phrase it like that, I actually agree. Romulox Jan 2013 #22

So if you support affirmite action, should there be less black players? Travis_0004 Jan 2013 #26

it is with numbers. times. passes. scores. those are clear black and white number to the best seabeyond Jan 2013 #34

Your argument in fact exposes the insitiutionalized racism in the system MattBaggins Jan 2013 #29

wouldn't they be the largest pool of potential future coaches? seabeyond Jan 2013 #35

It is a huge red flag MattBaggins Jan 2013 #41

It would be my expectation that coaching ability ... dawg Jan 2013 #51

also, having been in management, that is kinda a precieved ability and if one is conditioned seabeyond Jan 2013 #52

That's a big issue with the quarterback as well. dawg Jan 2013 #58

I'm not sure it's true that "blacks make up the largest number of players". That's only confirmed Romulox Jan 2013 #98

How do you explain it? Buzz Clik Jan 2013 #13

Occam's razor: owners are acting in their perceived best interest--selecting people they think will Romulox Jan 2013 #17

Fair enough. Is it possible, however, that the owners hire coaches within their comfort zone? Buzz Clik Jan 2013 #19

You and seabeyond both make good points. Romulox Jan 2013 #25

There are 32 teams in the NFL with 3 current black head coaches Major Nikon Jan 2013 #71

Good point. nt Romulox Jan 2013 #97

I have this conversation frequently with my younger co-workers. MindPilot Jan 2013 #7

So how well does that argument go over pennylane100 Jan 2013 #36

Good point. MindPilot Jan 2013 #43

a person with low income has much more chance at scholarships seabeyond Jan 2013 #44

That's why there needs to be organizations to address class privilege as well Hippo_Tron Jan 2013 #76

I don't believe in Affirmative Action theKed Jan 2013 #8

then you ignore the part where people inherently go toward a white person as opposed to a black seabeyond Jan 2013 #10

You ought to actually read my post theKed Jan 2013 #28

It suffices... MattBaggins Jan 2013 #50

I think the large pachyderm in the room is... MindPilot Jan 2013 #16

yep. nt okaawhatever Jan 2013 #88

"the best candidate for the job" is at the end of the day MattBaggins Jan 2013 #46

No theKed Jan 2013 #60

They often are MattBaggins Jan 2013 #63

Why does everyone theKed Jan 2013 #64

In lieu of rainbows and unicorns... MattBaggins Jan 2013 #65

I do hope theKed Jan 2013 #67

You're either ignoring human behavior or don't know about it... uponit7771 Jan 2013 #101

Your discussion won't be meaningful unless ... Buzz Clik Jan 2013 #12

true that. i recognize that. you are right. and i am not here to battle the notion either. seabeyond Jan 2013 #18

Ah, but is he defending women by going after dead beat dads or is he punishing men he doesn't see okaawhatever Jan 2013 #94

his career is with city?county? going after those (man or woman) that does not pay child support. seabeyond Jan 2013 #95

Ah, good for him. My dad was a pilot in the Air Force, I always love seeing women pilots! nt okaawhatever Jan 2013 #96

Hire the best people for the job. Don't obsess about checking off boxes. Nye Bevan Jan 2013 #14

This message was self-deleted by its author OneTenthofOnePercent Jan 2013 #72

I have nuanced views on affirmative action. dawg Jan 2013 #21

But since I *do* believe in white male privilege ... dawg Jan 2013 #32

having teenage boys we are discussing these types of issues often. seabeyond Jan 2013 #37

When you grow to love someone ... dawg Jan 2013 #40

that is an excellent way to say it dawg. exactly. nt seabeyond Jan 2013 #42

being one of those men hfojvt Jan 2013 #27

thanks for your explanation. more a philosophical question that heart bleeding. nt seabeyond Jan 2013 #38

I really like the last paragraph. MindPilot Jan 2013 #49

MFL coaches DO hfojvt Jan 2013 #66

I think your example of the NFL is bad, here's why. Drahthaardogs Jan 2013 #30

i really liked moon. thank you for your post. it explains a lot. very interesting. seabeyond Jan 2013 #39

Doug Williams hfojvt Jan 2013 #61

It starts in high school having black kids run the option, and it is indicative Drahthaardogs Jan 2013 #73

Marino never won a ring either hfojvt Jan 2013 #110

So you don't think that black quarterbacks are encouraged to run more Drahthaardogs Jan 2013 #112

poor? poor? hfojvt Jan 2013 #113

I oppose affirmative action because I watch my dad barely scrape by... Comrade_McKenzie Jan 2013 #31

My wife works at a college. KansDem Jan 2013 #33

Is it possible those women were in fact just as qualified? MattBaggins Jan 2013 #55

If they weren't qualified they would not keep abelenkpe Jan 2013 #108

The only time I've seen open discrimination in hiring Chathamization Jan 2013 #45

true that. it is also known that more attractive people will be hired over the less seabeyond Jan 2013 #48

I would hire a non-smoker over a smoker in a heartbeat. Nye Bevan Jan 2013 #54

because they can only take a smoke break when breaks are allowed for all, and cause they are seabeyond Jan 2013 #57

Yeah, and I think there can be a generational rift Chathamization Jan 2013 #70

very good point. i know it is that way with our younger women. but then, they have had a couple seabeyond Jan 2013 #81

I get surprised sometimes Chathamization Jan 2013 #89

...only after laws are enacted that go against base human behavior. It's HUMAN to want to relate to uponit7771 Jan 2013 #103

I harbor some doubts. creon Jan 2013 #47

The Rooney Rule Sheldon Cooper Jan 2013 #53

& Dungy proved that Bucs not being S Bowl champs wasn't about him when Colts won w/him as head coach okaawhatever Jan 2013 #99

I actually will go a bit furhter. I want to see marvin lewis fired. Travis_0004 Jan 2013 #56

At some point customerserviceguy Jan 2013 #59

I recognize white male privilege, yet I still oppose affirmative action... MellowDem Jan 2013 #62

People also tend to hire mzteris Jan 2013 #68

he is young. and he talks. he does not walk it perfectly yet, but... he listens. seabeyond Jan 2013 #84

I'm sorry, mzteris Jan 2013 #90

exactly. you know and you see it. but, seabeyond Jan 2013 #93

Who here doesn't believe in white privilege? Major Nikon Jan 2013 #69

I think jobs should be awarded based on the best person applying for the job. OneTenthofOnePercent Jan 2013 #74

"Best" is usually subjective for most jobs Nikia Jan 2013 #80

So help economically disadvantaged people, whatever their race happens to be. Nye Bevan Jan 2013 #83

Yes. If any minorities do happen to be systematically more disadvantaged, then they will OneTenthofOnePercent Jan 2013 #87

but we have found that does not work and ignores the problem. as i said, all you have to do is look seabeyond Jan 2013 #86

I can see how in any given year there would be no black head coaches in the NFL... Hippo_Tron Jan 2013 #75

Why are blacks overrepresented as NBA coaches? (nt) Nye Bevan Jan 2013 #77

Not sure, but why does it matter? Hippo_Tron Jan 2013 #79

Good point. Perhaps the racial makeup of NFL coaches doesn't mean much after all (nt) Nye Bevan Jan 2013 #82

As I said, in any given year it doesn't... Hippo_Tron Jan 2013 #85

I think that the presence of women and minorities in previously all white male organizations Nikia Jan 2013 #78

Reality check. 99Forever Jan 2013 #91

Yep. And the billionaire NBA owners decided that 14 black guys out of 30 coaches Nye Bevan Jan 2013 #92

I don't think that the OP was suggesting that NFL owners were racist. Buzz Clik Jan 2013 #102

Neither is the voting rights act...come on, the "aint" argument died after 2008 uponit7771 Jan 2013 #104

Great. 99Forever Jan 2013 #105

I understand affirmative action to be about recruitment - not quotas aikoaiko Jan 2013 #100

Interesting ... Sekhmets Daughter Jan 2013 #106

Is this about "Head Coach" positions? Or does it include assistants? JustABozoOnThisBus Jan 2013 #107

I favor AA, but it is not designed to last forever and ever bluestateguy Jan 2013 #109

Playing and coaching require two different sets of abilities LittleBlue Jan 2013 #111