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In reply to the discussion: Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy believed President Kennedy was killed by a conspiracy. [View all]Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)277. More misleading hogwash from you, as expected
"near-pristine"...no. Striated, flattened to near-oblate cross-section, lead core extruding from outer jacket, far from "pristine". And a bullet that's transited the soft tissues of two human bodies, deflected off a rib, and then and only then struck a wrist will be far less deformed than a bullet fired with full velocity into a human wrist.
And:
Concern about the weight of CE 399
Critics have repeatedly advanced the argument that the four fragments in Connally's wrist and thigh contained too much mass to have come from CE 399. They expressed themselves semiquantitatively in ways that do not hold up. This argument can be considered by comparing the mass lost by the bullet with the mass represented by the fragments.
The amount of mass lost by CE 399 cannot be known precisely because it was not weighed beforehand. Ranges or averages of unfired bullets of that type must be provided instead, and the final weight subtracted. Weights of unfired WCC/MC bullets have been estimated at least three times. (1) Special Agent Robert A Frazier of the FBI weighed three test bullets and got 160.85, 161.5, and 161.1 grains. That averages to 161.15 ± 0.33 grains. Subtracting the final weight of CE 399, 158.6 grains, gives 2.55 ± 0.33 grains missing, all of which was presumed to be lead. (2) Dr. John Nichols, University of Kansas Medical Center, weighed an unspecified number of WCC/MC bullets. His result was 161 ± 0.07 grains. (Unfortunately, his standard error of 0.07 grains cannot be further interpreted until the number of bullets on which it is based is known.) Nichols's average of 161 grains is indistinguishable from Frazier's 161.15 grains when significant figures are considered. Taken at face value, however, it yields a loss of 2.4 grains of lead. (3) Dr. John K. Lattimer and sons, in a careful work that has been underpublicized, weighed 100 WCC/MC bullets from the four lots that had been produced. The weights ranged from 159.80 grains to 161.50 grains, and averaged 160.84 grains, a little lighter than the 161.15 and 161 grains from the first two estimates. Their average was probably much sounder statistically because of the large numbers of bullets it represented. Their median weight was 160.80 grains. The Lattimers' average weight yields a loss of 2.2 grains of lead. Thus the three sets of weights of unfired MC bullets give possible losses ranging from 1.2 to 2.9 grains of lead, and best estimates of 2.2 to 2.6 grains.
It is harder to estimate the amount of mass in the fragments that were recovered. One Dallas doctor estimated the fragments from Connally's wrist to be in the microgram range (one microgram equals 15 micrograins). The three fragments recovered from Connally's arm weighed a total of 0.5 grains, or about 20% of the mass missing from CE 399. Thus the missing mass of CE 399 can easily account for the fragments recovered.
But what about the mass of the fragments not recovered from Connally's wrist? Lattimer and associates did another interesting experiment. They took 2.1 grains of lead that had been extruded from one of their test bullets (about the same mass as that missing from CE 399) and sliced it into thin slices of about the same size as seen on Connally's X-rays. They were able to get 41 such slices (Figure 1a below).
Figure 1a. Forty-one slices of lead from 2.1 grains of extruded lead. [From page 278 of J. K. Lattimer, Kennedy and Lincoln, Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, 1980.]
The lack of debris on CE 399
The authenticity of CE 399 has also been attacked because its surface allegedly showed no debris from the bodies of the two men. First off, we must be careful to read the testimony properly. FBI Special Agent Frazier first stated that he did not have to clean the bullet because "The bullet was clean and it was not necessary to change it in any way." [WC III 428] In response to a follow-up question about lack of blood or other material on the surface, he expanded: "Not any which would interfere with the examination, no, sir. Now there may have been slight traces which could have been removed just in ordinary handling, but it wasn't necessary to actually clean blood or tissue off of the bullet." [Next page] Frazier was thus acknowledging that some residue might have been left on the surface, but he didn't pay much attention to it.
Frazier's observations are supported in the scientific literature. Here are two quotes that were posted to one of the JFK newsgroups by Elliot Perry a couple years ago:
In three separate shooting incidents involving multiple gunshots, two FMJ bullets and one bullet fragment found at the scene (one from each case) were investigated for the presence of biological material from the victim after perforation. The surface of the missiles, which did not show obvious tissue traces when examined under a microscope, was swabbed. PCR typing of up to five STR loci was performed on the small amounts of DNA extracted, which were even below the detection limit of the slot blot quantification in one case. Nevertheless, individualisation of cellular material from the perforating projectiles was successful in each of the three cases presented. Consequently, identification of the victim wounded by a perforating bullet can reliably be achieved if contamination or removal of evidentiary material by improper handling is prevented. [International Journal of Legal Medicine 110: (2) 101-103, April 1997]
DNA typing of cellular debris from perforating bullets was investigated following shooting experiments. A total of 14 perforating gunshots were fired into 9 calves. PCR typing of tissue fragments was done using bovine-specific primers flanking a 247 bp segment within the bovine lactoglobulin gene. Positive amplification results were obtained for all 9 hollow point (HP) and all 5 full metal jacket (FMJ) bullets. In contrast to HP bullets the smooth surfaces of the FMJ bullets did not have visible biological material, which resulted in weaker bands in the DNA analysis compared to HP bullets. Tissue seemed to accumulate at the base of the projectiles... By individualizing tissue on perforating bullets, the bullet and the victim it passed through can be linked. This can assist the investigation of gunshot deaths, especially when several persons are involved in a gun fight. [International Journal of Legal Medicine 108: (4) 177-179, February 1996]
Perry summarized the quotes as follows:
So FMJ bullets that go through targets don't have visible tissue on them, and may not have tissue that can be seen using a microscope. Modern techniques can still isolate enough material to do DNA tests that can identify the victim, but this sort of test was clearly unavailable to crime labs in 1963. I don't see where there is any grounds for saying CE399 should have had obvious signs of tissue on it, nor is there any reason to accuse the investigators in 1963 of not using tests to match whatever microscopic material was on the bullet to JFK and JBC. At worst they may have made a mistake in not handling the bullet like it was a moon rock in the hopes that decades later, tests might be developed that could indeed get genetic material from the bullet to compare to JFK and JBC's DNA.
The shortest possible summary of the above is, "No debris, no problem."
http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/scientific_topics/naa/naa_and_assassination_ii/the_fragments.html
Critics have repeatedly advanced the argument that the four fragments in Connally's wrist and thigh contained too much mass to have come from CE 399. They expressed themselves semiquantitatively in ways that do not hold up. This argument can be considered by comparing the mass lost by the bullet with the mass represented by the fragments.
The amount of mass lost by CE 399 cannot be known precisely because it was not weighed beforehand. Ranges or averages of unfired bullets of that type must be provided instead, and the final weight subtracted. Weights of unfired WCC/MC bullets have been estimated at least three times. (1) Special Agent Robert A Frazier of the FBI weighed three test bullets and got 160.85, 161.5, and 161.1 grains. That averages to 161.15 ± 0.33 grains. Subtracting the final weight of CE 399, 158.6 grains, gives 2.55 ± 0.33 grains missing, all of which was presumed to be lead. (2) Dr. John Nichols, University of Kansas Medical Center, weighed an unspecified number of WCC/MC bullets. His result was 161 ± 0.07 grains. (Unfortunately, his standard error of 0.07 grains cannot be further interpreted until the number of bullets on which it is based is known.) Nichols's average of 161 grains is indistinguishable from Frazier's 161.15 grains when significant figures are considered. Taken at face value, however, it yields a loss of 2.4 grains of lead. (3) Dr. John K. Lattimer and sons, in a careful work that has been underpublicized, weighed 100 WCC/MC bullets from the four lots that had been produced. The weights ranged from 159.80 grains to 161.50 grains, and averaged 160.84 grains, a little lighter than the 161.15 and 161 grains from the first two estimates. Their average was probably much sounder statistically because of the large numbers of bullets it represented. Their median weight was 160.80 grains. The Lattimers' average weight yields a loss of 2.2 grains of lead. Thus the three sets of weights of unfired MC bullets give possible losses ranging from 1.2 to 2.9 grains of lead, and best estimates of 2.2 to 2.6 grains.
It is harder to estimate the amount of mass in the fragments that were recovered. One Dallas doctor estimated the fragments from Connally's wrist to be in the microgram range (one microgram equals 15 micrograins). The three fragments recovered from Connally's arm weighed a total of 0.5 grains, or about 20% of the mass missing from CE 399. Thus the missing mass of CE 399 can easily account for the fragments recovered.
But what about the mass of the fragments not recovered from Connally's wrist? Lattimer and associates did another interesting experiment. They took 2.1 grains of lead that had been extruded from one of their test bullets (about the same mass as that missing from CE 399) and sliced it into thin slices of about the same size as seen on Connally's X-rays. They were able to get 41 such slices (Figure 1a below).
Figure 1a. Forty-one slices of lead from 2.1 grains of extruded lead. [From page 278 of J. K. Lattimer, Kennedy and Lincoln, Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, 1980.]
The lack of debris on CE 399
The authenticity of CE 399 has also been attacked because its surface allegedly showed no debris from the bodies of the two men. First off, we must be careful to read the testimony properly. FBI Special Agent Frazier first stated that he did not have to clean the bullet because "The bullet was clean and it was not necessary to change it in any way." [WC III 428] In response to a follow-up question about lack of blood or other material on the surface, he expanded: "Not any which would interfere with the examination, no, sir. Now there may have been slight traces which could have been removed just in ordinary handling, but it wasn't necessary to actually clean blood or tissue off of the bullet." [Next page] Frazier was thus acknowledging that some residue might have been left on the surface, but he didn't pay much attention to it.
Frazier's observations are supported in the scientific literature. Here are two quotes that were posted to one of the JFK newsgroups by Elliot Perry a couple years ago:
In three separate shooting incidents involving multiple gunshots, two FMJ bullets and one bullet fragment found at the scene (one from each case) were investigated for the presence of biological material from the victim after perforation. The surface of the missiles, which did not show obvious tissue traces when examined under a microscope, was swabbed. PCR typing of up to five STR loci was performed on the small amounts of DNA extracted, which were even below the detection limit of the slot blot quantification in one case. Nevertheless, individualisation of cellular material from the perforating projectiles was successful in each of the three cases presented. Consequently, identification of the victim wounded by a perforating bullet can reliably be achieved if contamination or removal of evidentiary material by improper handling is prevented. [International Journal of Legal Medicine 110: (2) 101-103, April 1997]
DNA typing of cellular debris from perforating bullets was investigated following shooting experiments. A total of 14 perforating gunshots were fired into 9 calves. PCR typing of tissue fragments was done using bovine-specific primers flanking a 247 bp segment within the bovine lactoglobulin gene. Positive amplification results were obtained for all 9 hollow point (HP) and all 5 full metal jacket (FMJ) bullets. In contrast to HP bullets the smooth surfaces of the FMJ bullets did not have visible biological material, which resulted in weaker bands in the DNA analysis compared to HP bullets. Tissue seemed to accumulate at the base of the projectiles... By individualizing tissue on perforating bullets, the bullet and the victim it passed through can be linked. This can assist the investigation of gunshot deaths, especially when several persons are involved in a gun fight. [International Journal of Legal Medicine 108: (4) 177-179, February 1996]
Perry summarized the quotes as follows:
So FMJ bullets that go through targets don't have visible tissue on them, and may not have tissue that can be seen using a microscope. Modern techniques can still isolate enough material to do DNA tests that can identify the victim, but this sort of test was clearly unavailable to crime labs in 1963. I don't see where there is any grounds for saying CE399 should have had obvious signs of tissue on it, nor is there any reason to accuse the investigators in 1963 of not using tests to match whatever microscopic material was on the bullet to JFK and JBC. At worst they may have made a mistake in not handling the bullet like it was a moon rock in the hopes that decades later, tests might be developed that could indeed get genetic material from the bullet to compare to JFK and JBC's DNA.
The shortest possible summary of the above is, "No debris, no problem."
http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/scientific_topics/naa/naa_and_assassination_ii/the_fragments.html
(In reply to the above, if you can muster one, I'll thank you to limit yourself to the evidence presented, and its merits and demerits. Criticising the source instead of addressing the evidence is the standard conspiracist tactic of evasion.)
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Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy believed President Kennedy was killed by a conspiracy. [View all]
Octafish
Jan 2013
OP
That's incorrect. The CIA and Curtis LeMay did him in. The Mafia cleaned up the "problems"
Zen Democrat
Jan 2013
#53
Seems the Attorney General of the US & the President's closest advisor was the one doing that.
HiPointDem
Jan 2013
#189
Rather be called 'paranoid' than side with liars and the traitors they protect.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#84
"Sprague... wanted complete information about the CIA's operation in Mexico City..."
MinM
Jan 2013
#193
If, as I suspect the CIA knew what went on in Mexico City, I can see why the CIA demanded
happyslug
Jan 2013
#232
CIA assigned 1963 Oswald minder George Joannides the 1977 job of liaison with HSCA.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#250
One of the Problems with the JFK assassination is the sheer number of people CYAing themselves
happyslug
Jan 2013
#229
the kennedys are conspiracy theorists now? seems like rfk, both as us AG & kennedy admin
HiPointDem
Jan 2013
#190
there's no contradiction at all. sorry you don't see it. rfk had connections he could work after
HiPointDem
Jan 2013
#324
'You can't be a Democrat and you can't be a liberal if you don't believe there was a conspiracy"
zappaman
Jan 2013
#441
You are pointless. What is the point of this post? Back up you own crap before you ask anyone else
lonestarnot
Jan 2013
#180
The Bubble Top Wasn't Bulletproof. So what does it matter if JFK or someone else
stopbush
Jan 2013
#290
The bubble top was ordered off the limo by Kenneth O'Donnell, one of JFK's top aides
stopbush
Jan 2013
#475
That picture means absolutely nothing when it comes to protecting JFK that day.
stopbush
Jan 2013
#668
I didn't know registering as a Democrat required me to join Lee Harvey's defense team.
nyquil_man
Jan 2013
#608
RFK was not interested in reopening the investigation into his brother's death.
stopbush
Jan 2013
#350
Sen. Kennedy's children went public with their father's conclusion of conspiracy.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#538
And yet, RFK conducted his own INDEPENDENT investigation of the numerous JFK CTs AT THE TIME
stopbush
Jan 2013
#547
"It demonstrates that RFK?" You know, these aren't FACTS that we're talking about here.
stopbush
Jan 2013
#658
It implies no such thing. The fact that the Washington Post called these aides the Irish Mafia
stopbush
Jan 2013
#667
So, you're suggesting that people who DO know their history should walk on eggs
stopbush
Jan 2013
#670
I'm complaining about the use of the word "mafia" not the use of "Irish"...
AntiFascist
Jan 2013
#684
Are you effing kidding us? Madeline Brown? You're actually putting that NUT forward
stopbush
Jan 2013
#696
Once again you misconstrue what I have said, and then elaborate endlessly on your own...
AntiFascist
Jan 2013
#697
What does any of that matter? LBJ wasn't at that party to say what he didn't say
stopbush
Jan 2013
#703
The only "issue" about Murchison is whether M Brown was lying about the party.
stopbush
Jan 2013
#706
'Breach of Trust' by Gerald D. McKnight spells out how the Warren Commission failed the nation.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#16
Reclaiming History by Vincent Bugliosi spells out how the Warren Commission got it right.
zappaman
Jan 2013
#19
Because that picture shows the base of a bullet, zappaman, and adds nothing to understanding.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#49
This is the bullet that left significantmetal in Connally's body that was never removed? Yeah right.
Zen Democrat
Jan 2013
#60
'Significant' as the mass of material in Connally's wrist is greater than what's missing from CE399.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#196
Since you continually cite evidence related to Neutron Activation analysis...
AntiFascist
Jan 2013
#376
For the sake of your argument, I'll stipulate that we set aside the NAA done to CE399.
stopbush
Jan 2013
#391
The weight of fragments removed from Gov. Connally are not known, Spider Jerusalem.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#272
Got a link or source that documents the weight of the fragments from Gov. Connally?
Octafish
Jan 2013
#274
Drs. Finck, Humes & Shaw testified more fragments found in Connally’s wrist than missing from CE 399
Octafish
Jan 2013
#378
You are SO far behind the curve in the evidence that has been added over the decades
stopbush
Jan 2013
#52
For information, read James DOUGLASS. You write about allegation paraded as reality, stopbush.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#63
Unlike you refusing to read Bugliosi or the WCR, I've actually read most of "JFK&TU" by Douglass.
stopbush
Jan 2013
#73
The only reason to keep on trying is in order for those of us who care about Democracy win.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#172
I finished the Bugliosi book proper (not the supplemental end notes) about
coalition_unwilling
Jan 2013
#67
There were and are strong arguments that the facts of the case did not merit a military trial.
nyquil_man
Jan 2013
#597
So, it's a stretch to think that Oswald killed JFk as a simple act of self aggrandizement,
stopbush
Jan 2013
#549
None of that is objective proof. This person said this, that person said that, etc.
stopbush
Jan 2013
#289
AND YET - the HSCA and the WCR found NO involvement of the mob or the Cubans.
stopbush
Jan 2013
#310
BTW - let me know if you have problems with the following, which I would call objective proof:
stopbush
Jan 2013
#292
OMFG! Are you kidding me? This is like textbook erroneous info about the killing!
stopbush
Jan 2013
#305
Reading through the comments made by witnesses to the autopsy, they seem contradictory...
AntiFascist
Jan 2013
#330
What do O'Neill and Silbert have to do with the experts who examined the skull fragments?
stopbush
Jan 2013
#382
So, it sounds like you're willing to set aside NAA analysis as providing valid evidence....
AntiFascist
Jan 2013
#396
The fact that CE399 was proved to have been fired from Oswald's rifle coupled with the lead
stopbush
Jan 2013
#429
Well, you've got me wondering if any newer scientific processes have been developed
stopbush
Jan 2013
#432
Very few of them were physicians, very few of them saw the wounds up close...
Spider Jerusalem
Jan 2013
#413
Time will tell if more truth will come out about RFK's beliefs at the time...
AntiFascist
Jan 2013
#453
The context of this thread hinges on the veracity of what RFK, Jr. is telling us...
AntiFascist
Jan 2013
#461
RFK Jr lost a lot of credibility with me when he went off on his anti-vac jag.
stopbush
Jan 2013
#465
I couldn't disagree more with your extremely biased assessment of the WC's goals.
stopbush
Feb 2013
#746
This isn't about the FBI, it's about EVERY BIT OF EVIDENCE AND ANALYSIS, EVER.
Spider Jerusalem
Jan 2013
#450
I see you are back to focusing on the first bullet that went into JFK's back...
AntiFascist
Jan 2013
#519
You are clearly a crank, and there is no point in continuing this discussion
Spider Jerusalem
Jan 2013
#520
All the "conclusions" you cite in your post are faulty in and of themselves...
AntiFascist
Jan 2013
#617
If nothing else, AntiFascist's postings of WCR info prove that the WCR was no whitewash.
stopbush
Jan 2013
#541
No. There have been conspiracies that have led to successful assassinations of world leaders.
stopbush
Jan 2013
#575
Guiteau said in court that he admitted to the shooting but denied the killing.
nyquil_man
Jan 2013
#595
I wonder why you're not willing to apply the same conspiracy-oriented speculation
nyquil_man
Jan 2013
#600
And you contend that Lee Harvey Oswald *may* have been just shooting out the window to scare JFK.
nyquil_man
Jan 2013
#603
I never pretended to know precisely what Oswald may or may not have been up to...
AntiFascist
Jan 2013
#605
In which case he could have still been involved with a conspiracy....already pointed out n/t
AntiFascist
Jan 2013
#612
Obviously I do have problems with the single bullet theory no matter how it is construed...
AntiFascist
Jan 2013
#665
I will hand it to you for having a name but: At what point does he kill the President?
nyquil_man
Jan 2013
#675
I think you've overstated both the HSCA's conclusions and what they were looking at...
AntiFascist
Feb 2013
#719
Well put. Thank you for your many correctives to AF's CT fantasies in this thread.
stopbush
Feb 2013
#724
Exactly. I don't know why the CTists don't realize that all they're doing is speculating.
stopbush
Feb 2013
#732
You have plenty of criticisms for the "official" version, but you have no valid alternative.
nyquil_man
Feb 2013
#748
I'm not saying you're convinced you can provide evidence. I'm saying you have no evidence.
nyquil_man
Feb 2013
#754
Not so much evidence AGAINST Oswald as much as evidence related to how he was handled...
AntiFascist
Feb 2013
#755
The theory does not depend on the number of shooters or the precise role Oswald played if any...
AntiFascist
Feb 2013
#758
See? You're willing to say that Oswald was deeply involved with the government,
nyquil_man
Feb 2013
#764
I think you are veering far from the question of whether or not there was a conspiracy...
AntiFascist
Feb 2013
#765
You seem to ignore my point that RFK himself was playing along with this...
AntiFascist
Feb 2013
#777
I see. So the Warren Commission was right not to explore all avenues in this case?
nyquil_man
Feb 2013
#782
Ok, so given that the Warren Commission may have acted PURELY in the interests of national security.
AntiFascist
Feb 2013
#784
The files would indicate Oswald's connections to anti-Castro CI programs...
AntiFascist
Feb 2013
#799
CE-399 bothers me primarilly because the FBI lied in its memo to the Warren Commission...
AntiFascist
Feb 2013
#803
CE-399 bothers you because you don't want Oswald to be tied to any shooting.
nyquil_man
Feb 2013
#804
What's Oswald doing with Guy Bannister and anti-Castro groups if he's more of a leftist?
nyquil_man
Feb 2013
#814
I see. So you don't think potential ties to segregationist groups should have been explored?
nyquil_man
Feb 2013
#816
Katzenbach's memo makes clear that he was concerned about RUMORS AND SPECULATION.
nyquil_man
Mar 2013
#834
Katzenbach had taken over for Robert Kennedy, who was still in mourning...
AntiFascist
Mar 2013
#835
You're much more interested in exploring the historical/geopolitical aspects of the assassination
nyquil_man
Mar 2013
#838
What do you think of the story told by Dallas County Deputy Sherrif Roger Craig?
AntiFascist
Mar 2013
#839
Craig is basically saying there that 1. There were people doing suspicious things
nyquil_man
Mar 2013
#840
Come up with some actual evidence, AntiFascist, and you'll have my full attention.
nyquil_man
Mar 2013
#833
Your desire for perfect evidence seems to vanish when it comes to naming another shooter.
nyquil_man
Feb 2013
#805
Okay. How much of the evidence cited by the WC and HSCA would you like to toss out?
nyquil_man
Feb 2013
#778
Since both the WC and the HSCA turned a blind eye toward General Walker...
AntiFascist
Feb 2013
#771
They didn't turn a blind eye toward Oswald's attempt to assassinate Walker.
nyquil_man
Feb 2013
#774
Another reason Oswald was such a central person of interest to the CI division...
AntiFascist
Feb 2013
#756
The talk of "Mafia dons and CIA spooks" also occured during the Church and the HSCA investigations..
AntiFascist
Feb 2013
#727
What's new is the evolution of thought, particularly on the role played by the CIA...
AntiFascist
Feb 2013
#733
Oswald admired the Cuban revolution and Castro's leadership of it. Oswald
coalition_unwilling
Jan 2013
#258
Interesting he left the money on his wife's dresser before going off to shoot JFK.
zappaman
Jan 2013
#261
The whole thing infuses me with such immense sadness, both for JFK and his
coalition_unwilling
Jan 2013
#262
Even Marina Oswald was kept in the dark about much related to her husband...
AntiFascist
Jan 2013
#264
"There is a ton of evidence to implicate Lee Harvey Oswald as the sole..."
MrMickeysMom
Jan 2013
#185
The only bullets recovered from the scene were proven definitively
coalition_unwilling
Jan 2013
#257
It's often said that it is difficult if not impossible to 'prove a negative'. IOW, in
coalition_unwilling
Jan 2013
#278
"I hate to tell you how many of those witnesses were not interviewed by the commission'
zappaman
Jan 2013
#401
Jim Marrs helped keep the researchers going when all the pressure was on to shut them down.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#418
Isn't "Crossfire" the Marrs book where his main eye/earwitness to the JFK shooting
stopbush
Jan 2013
#454
Which book informed you that Oswald's body "spent 3-4 days lying in a mortuary?"
stopbush
Jan 2013
#451
We get it. Bugliosi is tired. The WCR is tired. The HSCA is tired. The evidence is tired.
stopbush
Jan 2013
#347
You've never read the WCR, so how would you know whether or not it makes sense?
stopbush
Jan 2013
#511
All one needs know: For it to work, the Warren report REQUIRES a Magic Bullet.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#560
We may never know the names of the trigger men, but we know who has benefited most over 49 years.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#85
We already know the truth, but overwhelming evidence apparently isn't enough for some.
stopbush
Jan 2013
#133
I thought they just said they didn't believe what the Warren Report said about...
Little Star
Jan 2013
#11
The family must have the strongest of hearts to carry the burden of what they know.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#387
Yep. The "4th shot" crap has been conclusively falsified, not that the CTists give a damn.
stopbush
Jan 2013
#31
G. Robert Blakey has stated that if the dictabelt "evidence" of a 4th shot could be falsified
stopbush
Jan 2013
#35
When DoJ changed bosses from Carter to Reagan, the HSCA request fell by the wayside.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#115
Is it true that John Kennedy was moving toward a National Bank of the U.S.A.? nt
patrice
Jan 2013
#27
The Federal Reserve? could print money back then? I'll have to look into that. It creates money as
patrice
Jan 2013
#51
Thank you very much for the links, Octafish! I will read and share this important information. :-))
patrice
Jan 2013
#246
He was Attorney General for almost the entire duration of the WC investigation.
nyquil_man
Jan 2013
#33
What makes you the overnight authority on what happened in Dallas? Or why RFK was killed?
nyquil_man
Jan 2013
#46
Rory was in the womb when RFK was killed. Her information had to come from Ethel.
Zen Democrat
Jan 2013
#61
Vince PALAMARA: CIA Director told RFK 'there were two people involved in the shooting.'
Octafish
Jan 2013
#435
Like when stealing an election, an assassination is conducted to change policy.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#103
Please point out what is false. In fact, GOOGLE 'Octafish + BFEE' and find something that's false.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#111
Provides a cooling off period for his 'w' and 'o' keys. Factory recommended. Nt.
Mc Mike
Jan 2013
#214
If there's nothing to what RFK, Jr. and Rory said, why the virulent outcry on DU and in debunkerdom?
Octafish
Jan 2013
#112
President Gerald Ford played a large role in foisting the lone nut fiction upon the United States.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#134
So, are you adding Gerald Ford to your list of those who helped kill or cover up?
zappaman
Jan 2013
#136
Show me even one post where you've expressed criticism of George Walker Bush on DU, zappaman...
Octafish
Jan 2013
#154
Ha! Amazing! According to Octafish, everybody in the world had a hand in killing JFK!
stopbush
Jan 2013
#287
I cannot fathom why a DUer would oppose discussion of conspiracy in the death of JFK.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#148
Octafish ... have you wrote a book on this stuff yet? What's taking so long ???
doublethink
Jan 2013
#174
While I agree that a significant majority of Americans now reject the WC findings, it simply
coalition_unwilling
Jan 2013
#297
Then what you claim must have happened in just the first couple of minutes after the report came out
MadHound
Jan 2013
#317
Have you read Bugliosi's book yet? He clearly and coherently explains
coalition_unwilling
Jan 2013
#323
I am somewhat hobbled currently, as I checked Bugliosi's book out of the
coalition_unwilling
Jan 2013
#333
Republican Senator (and physician) Bill Frist, who famously diagnosed Terry Schiavo as still
coalition_unwilling
Jan 2013
#338
Er, it was the base of CE399 - not the bullet's nose - that hit Connally's wrist.
stopbush
Jan 2013
#344
The "offset" between JFK and Connally is CLEARLY visible in the picture you provided.
stopbush
Jan 2013
#335
The common theme of their foolishness is to get you to spend time refuting their idiocy, MadHound.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#343
''We had been operating a damned Murder Inc. in the Caribbean.'' -- Lyndon B. Johnson
Octafish
Jan 2013
#244
It's no lie, stopbush. The hairpin turn was the ambush location in both cases.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#357
Thanks. My mistake. BTW: The word didn't change anything that mattered in my post.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#366
That's a very interesting photograph. I hadn't seen it. Here's a video from Frontline which...
Poll_Blind
Feb 2013
#824
If the Secret Service planned that turn they were criminally negligent or part of the plot.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#420
What links? You don't answer who OK'd the route to include the 120-degree turn, stopbush.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#440
But I did answer it. It's all contained in the WCR testimony, which I provided.
stopbush
Jan 2013
#445
Thanks. So, Secret Service Special Agent Forrest V. Sorrels approved the route and hairpin turn.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#460
Does it bother you when people ask you if you've stopped beating your wife, zappaman?
Octafish
Jan 2013
#500
First you called me a 'Sandy Hook denier,' stopbush, and now its 'climate change denier.'
Octafish
Jan 2013
#381
Because you are so obviously anti-science when it comes to the evidence in this case.
stopbush
Jan 2013
#384
Here's something scientific: Secret Service agent Abraham BOLDEN railroaded for telling the truth.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#415
Bolden may have been trained in forensic science, but the story you related about him
stopbush
Jan 2013
#421
Your "expert" Pat Speer at least has the decency to provide Dale Myers rebuttal to his claims,
stopbush
Jan 2013
#550
Then-CIA man James Wilcott testified to Congress that Oswald was a CIA employee.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#372
The guy was in Mexico City, apparently on US government business, so it is hard to tell.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#414
I had heard pieces of the CIA-mafia stuff before, but never put it together in such a straight line
yurbud
Jan 2013
#403
You continue the smear, zappaman. Do you think I'd post about Dallas on DU for 12 years?
Octafish
Jan 2013
#510
Don't you know why it matters whether President Kennedy had been killed by a conspiracy?
Octafish
Jan 2013
#509
Unicorns? Almost as asinine as believing NAZIs had nothing to do with post-war US history.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#543
Other side of the coin: and if it could ever be proved to your satisfaction that Oswald acted alone,
stopbush
Jan 2013
#542
Yeah. When Attorney General Kennedy thinks conspiracy, however, I'm inclined to believe him.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#581
And if Attorney General Kennedy had thought no conspiracy, you'd have smeared him like you smear me.
Bolo Boffin
Jan 2013
#585
Yes, that is indeed my question. How does Octafish rate his disruption be tolerated?
Bolo Boffin
Jan 2013
#635
How many people are posting in this thread? How many clicking up and down to read the replies?
Bolo Boffin
Jan 2013
#650
You don't know Oswald's role? Simple - he was the killer. He acted on his own.
stopbush
Jan 2013
#591
What's interesting to me is when foreign leaders are killed, the first thoughts of the....
OldDem2012
Feb 2013
#796
The biggest flaw in the Warren Commission was that it never asked the question
dflprincess
Feb 2013
#801
Amazing the lengths (stupidities?) the CTists will go to when the facts upset their apple cart.
stopbush
Jan 2013
#661
Recommended and bookmarked. Great to see you "stir the shitstorm", Octafish!
robertpaulsen
Jan 2013
#692
I'll cross post this here... 50 reasons to continue to question after 50 years...
MrMickeysMom
Feb 2013
#760
Three tiny little video snippets which I thought painted a fascinating picture:
Poll_Blind
Feb 2013
#828