General Discussion

markpkessinger

(8,918 posts)

68. Recusion is making a valid point

Sun Jan 20, 2013, 04:03 PM

Jan 2013

I am certainly on board with the need to find a way to reign in these weapons. But when it comes to crafting legislation, definitions become extremely important. To you, it may seem like ridiculous quibbling over semantics to argue whether Adam Lanza's Bushmaster was an assault weapon or not. But I promise you, if some kind of ban on certain types or classes of firearms is enacted, if there is any grey area whatsoever concerning the definition of what firearms fall into the banned category, then, in some future trial, "ridiculous quibbling over semantics" will turn into the very core of a defense attorney's case, as that attorney seeks to exploit even the slightest ambiguity of statutory language in defense of his or her client. Overheated, emotionally-laden remarks such as "Tell that to the mothers children who...", really do not advance the cause of arriving at a workable response to the issue.

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Latest right-wing meme- "No assault rifle used at Sandy Hook" [View all] Beaverhausen Jan 2013 OP

The rifle Lanza used was neither an assault rifle nor an assault weapon Recursion Jan 2013 #1

correct Duckhunter935 Jan 2013 #4

then how were these children and teachers assaulted? spanone Jan 2013 #10

With a firearm. It's not like "non-assault weapons" are less deadly (nt) Recursion Jan 2013 #13

He used a musket, silly. kestrel91316 Jan 2013 #88

Gun nutters like to play games with semantics Hugabear Jan 2013 #115

Of course it's semantics. Igel Jan 2013 #147

Ok, so it wouldn't be an "assault weapon" in CT, but it would be in CA Major Nikon Jan 2013 #151

haha Sugarcoated Jan 2013 #159

With a gun. I suspect you already knew that and were being disingenuous. cthulu2016 Jan 2013 #141

A gun that shoots lots of bullets really, really fast without having to reload for a while Sugarcoated Jan 2013 #157

I suppose the answer would be in what CT defines an AW as Marrah_G Jan 2013 #11

No, it's the same. That Bushmaster was legal under the Federal AWB Recursion Jan 2013 #17

Please see the link below Marrah_G Jan 2013 #36

That's the magazine, not the weapon. This is part of the problem Recursion Jan 2013 #39

In Mass, where we still have the original AWB... Marrah_G Jan 2013 #44

Actually it's just the magazine itself that would be illegal Recursion Jan 2013 #47

And this is one of the problems, to be honest Marrah_G Jan 2013 #94

No disagreement there Recursion Jan 2013 #96

Any 30-rd magazine made before 1994 was grandfathered in NickB79 Jan 2013 #144

That is the case in MA Marrah_G Jan 2013 #145

FFS intaglio Jan 2013 #14

Why do you think we keep saying it's a stupid law? Recursion Jan 2013 #19

what filing are you talking about? Duckhunter935 Jan 2013 #27

Notionally "filing off" a bayonet lug; I think I said that upthread Recursion Jan 2013 #41

sorry missed that Duckhunter935 Jan 2013 #48

Thank you for your contribution to the discourse. 99Forever Jan 2013 #35

You know, a lot of pro-gun control people have constructively engaged with me on this Recursion Jan 2013 #42

I bet that's a relief the kids' parents. progressoid Jan 2013 #76

I doubt it, particularly since we're advocating the wrong thing Recursion Jan 2013 #80

How would you change Feinsteins proposal abelenkpe Jan 2013 #127

I'd ban semi-autos with detachable magazines Recursion Jan 2013 #128

Good to know! abelenkpe Jan 2013 #131

Thanks for your info. amandabeech Jan 2013 #129

Caliber probably isn't the issue Recursion Jan 2013 #132

"They can fire every time you pull the trigger." amandabeech Jan 2013 #138

"Assault rifle" comes pre-defined. Igel Jan 2013 #149

Good point. GeorgeGist Jan 2013 #130

Wow. That is some ugly shit. If all the time and money spent on the creation and production of the Dark n Stormy Knight Jan 2013 #153

No one outside the gun community cares about splitting hairs on the definition -- pnwmom Jan 2013 #146

Have Pete show his facts Angry Dragon Jan 2013 #2

Early on nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #3

A lot of things were said early on Recursion Jan 2013 #7

I am sure you are correct Duckhunter935 Jan 2013 #9

The definition is not yours, but the state nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #16

I think this Duckhunter935 Jan 2013 #57

And that my dear s about to change nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #72

well it is not just the .223 that the AR-15 can fire Duckhunter935 Jan 2013 #126

Yup, and...I know all this. nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #133

wasn't it a BB gun? spanone Jan 2013 #5

THey were killed with a Bushmaster malaise Jan 2013 #6

Which is neither an assault rifle nor an assault weapon (nt) Recursion Jan 2013 #8

Go tell that the parents who had to watch their children's bodies blown to bits malaise Jan 2013 #18

Does tragedy change the meaning of words? (nt) Recursion Jan 2013 #24

The Bushmaster is an assault rifle n/t malaise Jan 2013 #31

No. You can't just redefine things. Recursion Jan 2013 #43

Go tell that to the NRA n/t malaise Jan 2013 #46

Recusion is making a valid point markpkessinger Jan 2013 #68

Yes, well we've been hearing this "point" from the gun proliferates for some time Major Nikon Jan 2013 #152

They would depend on how AW is being defined Marrah_G Jan 2013 #21

so Lanza had to pull the trigger for each bullet fired? Beaverhausen Jan 2013 #25

Sure, but that's true for assault weapons too. Recursion Jan 2013 #33

correct Duckhunter935 Jan 2013 #58

However Much It Looks Like One, Sir.... The Magistrate Jan 2013 #28

I grant that point, I just think marketers will always find a way to meet that Recursion Jan 2013 #45

What Interests Me, Sir, Is The Window It Opens Into Motivation The Magistrate Jan 2013 #52

It's a talisman for everybody, I'll grant Recursion Jan 2013 #59

The Point You Seem To Be Sliding Over, Sir The Magistrate Jan 2013 #83

Thought experiment: ban all features except the pistol grip Recursion Jan 2013 #134

The culture you attack manifests itself in many ways, not just in the choice amandabeech Jan 2013 #140

It needs to be Politicalboi Jan 2013 #29

That is a *great* idea, and it's not what any proposed AWB has ever done Recursion Jan 2013 #38

what if you made the time for max rounds fired 1 minute? arely staircase Jan 2013 #81

It's a thought; you're going to wind up in the same place, though, I think Recursion Jan 2013 #85

but the semi-autos with detachable magazines would be legal or illegal depending arely staircase Jan 2013 #93

Who cares what it looks like Recursion Jan 2013 #95

it was a semi-automatic rifle Duckhunter935 Jan 2013 #15

Once again, same muzzle velocity nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #20

That's a fair point, and one no legislator has deemed worthy of consideration Recursion Jan 2013 #49

Centerfire rifles are just about all hunting rifles. NutmegYankee Jan 2013 #64

And significantly more deadly Recursion Jan 2013 #65

You want a clean kill on the deer. NutmegYankee Jan 2013 #70

There is a slight difference. NutmegYankee Jan 2013 #61

Yup, why we have seen bad guys take magazines nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #67

It's unclear what the first point is. NutmegYankee Jan 2013 #75

Really? We have seen these civilian versions nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #79

Some of the civilian versions use 5.56 NATO chambered barrels. NutmegYankee Jan 2013 #84

In the middle of a shoot out nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #86

Thats unlikely. HooptieWagon Jan 2013 #125

Hmm, hum, I know we all had a hell of an nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #135

Really?? Is that your final answer? Ghost in the Machine Jan 2013 #154

Yes, that is my final answer. NutmegYankee Jan 2013 #155

From your link..... Ghost in the Machine Jan 2013 #156

Keep going. See post #84 NutmegYankee Jan 2013 #158

No, I'm not making your point as well. IF you bothered to click my links Ghost in the Machine Jan 2013 #162

My comprehension is just fine. NutmegYankee Jan 2013 #163

I'll take the doctor's word over yours thanks n/t malaise Jan 2013 #22

The doctor never said it was an assault rifle or assault weapon Recursion Jan 2013 #50

He did malaise Jan 2013 #60

He said it was the rifle. And the rifle isn't an assault rifle or an assault weapon. Recursion Jan 2013 #63

The 30 round magazine was legal in CT but would have been illegal under the Fed AWB Marrah_G Jan 2013 #26

No it may not have been illegal Duckhunter935 Jan 2013 #62

If the fed ban had stayed in place there wouldn't still be alot of pre-bans around Marrah_G Jan 2013 #98

Initial reporting by the press was especially bad Lurks Often Jan 2013 #12

The Bushmaster was found inside the school pinboy3niner Jan 2013 #53

Where did I say it wasn't? Lurks Often Jan 2013 #78

I don't know or care. Shot in the face is shot in the face. MyNameGoesHere Jan 2013 #23

I agree Politicalboi Jan 2013 #37

I completely agree Recursion Jan 2013 #91

I think you've really hit on something here. bunnies Jan 2013 #122

Not perfectly. CDC research can help Recursion Jan 2013 #123

Crank up the Youtube, my friend. tantric calvinist Jan 2013 #30

I know- but they post a video of Pete Williams saying the handguns were found and not a rifle Beaverhausen Jan 2013 #40

One kid was shot 11 times. 11 times. If that is not an assault rifle, than I don't know what is. jillan Jan 2013 #32

I'll join you in banging my head malaise Jan 2013 #34

Being an assault weapon has *nothing* to do with how many bullets a gun can fire. Nothing. Recursion Jan 2013 #54

CT State Police: UPDATE on weapons used (1/18/13) pinboy3niner Jan 2013 #51

thank you!!! Beaverhausen Jan 2013 #55

You're welcome, Beaverhausen pinboy3niner Jan 2013 #150

Good catch, thanks! Recursion Jan 2013 #56

I remember the State Police Sargeant speaking to the public... Oilwellian Jan 2013 #71

Sophism and obscurantism gulliver Jan 2013 #66

Thank you. ananda Jan 2013 #73

name calling Duckhunter935 Jan 2013 #136

*WE'RE THE ONES WHO WROTE THE LAW* Recursion Jan 2013 #77

Easy there, pardner. No need to shout. gulliver Jan 2013 #111

I can't agree with the last sentence. The AWB is by nature weak Recursion Jan 2013 #112

More likely it would be YOU that was fired, Lurks Often Jan 2013 #89

I'll take my chances. gulliver Jan 2013 #113

Don't Be Fooled. The Gun Activists Are Trying To Control The Vocabulary, And Thus The Argument. Paladin Jan 2013 #69

It wasn't "gun activists" who introduced the term "assault weapons", though Recursion Jan 2013 #74

I have not seen one person Duckhunter935 Jan 2013 #107

And I Have Seen Any Number Of DU Gun Control Advocates..... Paladin Jan 2013 #119

There has been a lot of frustration Recursion Jan 2013 #124

What you say is certainly true, but ... markpkessinger Jan 2013 #90

When we bring up bayonet lugs and such... Recursion Jan 2013 #92

I absolutely agree markpkessinger Jan 2013 #99

This Is An Online Discussion Site. It Is Not A Senate Mark-up Session. Paladin Jan 2013 #108

I don't condone pouncing on magazine vs. clip Recursion Jan 2013 #109

Suits Me. Paladin Jan 2013 #118

Me too Recursion Jan 2013 #120

Just more reason to outright ban 100% of all weapons/bullets in the streets graham4anything Jan 2013 #82

someone posted this yesterday sasha031 Jan 2013 #87

nuances are used when all other sane arguments are bankrupt samsingh Jan 2013 #97

Better still ban all guns that look, act, fire like the one used for the massacre samsingh Jan 2013 #100

It's an interesting idea. Ban that literal form factor? Recursion Jan 2013 #101

let's get rid of the arguments around nuance samsingh Jan 2013 #104

Oh, then you want to ban handguns Recursion Jan 2013 #105

I believe the Connecticut police have not completed their final report jberryhill Jan 2013 #102

You must have missed post #51 n/t Oilwellian Jan 2013 #103

Why? jberryhill Jan 2013 #106

I never knew... deathrind Jan 2013 #110

This message was self-deleted by its author Recursion Jan 2013 #121

That is because it is a report from right after the event when the media was FUBAR ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2013 #114

It was a blunderbuss, wasn't it? longship Jan 2013 #116

I suppose that when the time comes Turbineguy Jan 2013 #117

This meme is the result of very shoddy initial reporting. wercal Jan 2013 #137

Appallingly shoddy. Remember the stuff about his mom being a teacher? Recursion Jan 2013 #139

My nomination for worst reporting would be for: wercal Jan 2013 #143

They play with words Special Agent Oso Jan 2013 #142

Everything you might need here at this link. Separation Jan 2013 #148

And thus they make the case for banning ALL guns. Zoeisright Jan 2013 #160

They use a news clip from the morning after the shooting AgingAmerican Jan 2013 #161

Post removed Post removed Jan 2013 #164

no that's the BS he ISN'T looking for farminator3000 Jan 2013 #165