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In reply to the discussion: Pitbulls Used to Be Considered the Perfect "Nanny Dogs" for Children -- [View all]Nine
(1,741 posts)204. More propaganda. The ATTS is a sham.
http://thetruthaboutpitbulls.blogspot.com/2010/08/there-are-three-kinds-of-lies-lies.html
As soon as the topic of pit bulls hits the comment sections, the pit bull apologia goes on the defensive and more often than not, the ATTS (American Temperament Testing Society) is the weapon of choice from their arsenal of myths. Typically the pit bull's ATTS scores will be inflated to unbelievable heights. It is not uncommon to read "pit bulls score higher than ANY other breed." A quick check of the available on demand ATTS statistics will bust that myth straight away. But the pit bull does score higher than many popular, safe, family friendly breeds of dogs. How could the dog responsible for roughly 50% of all fatal attacks, score better than Lassie?
ATTS History
The temperament test was developed by Alfons Ertelt in 1977. Mr Ertelt was not an animal behaviorist, he worked in the print industry but his passion was dogs and he was involved in schutzhund. (schutzhund is a dog sport that mirrors the training of police dog work and it is dominated by german shepherds) The ATTS test was initially intended to test working dogs for jobs such as police work. The test favors bold dogs, dogs that need to face danger head on without hesitation and fear. Courage was desired and rewarded, timidity was not. The ATTS favors dogs like pit bulls over dogs like collies. It is important to note, the test does not evaluate dogs for "pet" suitability.
Test Requirements
Since the testers are required to have a great deal of dog sport experience, the testers are often very involved in their breed clubs, therefore the testers are often evaluating their friends and acquaintances and usually the breed of their choice. In other words, they are testing dogs that they have a vested interest in seeing pass the test.
The Test
The final phase of the test measures a dog's self protective/aggressive behavior by exposing the dog first to a weirdly dressed non-threatening stranger, then a threatening stranger and finally an aggressive stranger.
If a dog panics and does not recover or if the dog shows strong avoidance or unprovoked aggression, it fails. Re: aggression, breed specific temperament and the prior experience and training of the dogs are taken into account. The website states that aggressive responses during the final phase of the test is okay for a dog with schutzhund training but an untrained husky displaying aggression toward the stranger may fail. It is obvious that these judges possess far too much discretion in these tests. Some pit bull owners report that their pit bulls passed when it launched aggressively at the stranger while other pit bulls have passed when it barely acknowledged the stranger. Passing or failing is completely dependent upon the whims of the testers.
Current ATTS scores for pit bull type dogs:
american pit bull 86%
american bulldog 84.8%
american staffordshire 83.9%
bull terrier 90.4%
staffordshire bull terrier 89.6%
Current ATTS scores for a few popular breeds of dogs in America:
cocker spaniel 81.9%
collie 79.7%
beagle 80.3%
chihuahua 71.1%
labrador retriever 92.3%
golden retriever 84.6%
german shepherd 84.2%
jack russell 84.1%
mutt 86%
pomeranian 75.8%
pug 90.9%
standard poodle 86%
Of the 30,000+ dogs tested by the ATTS to date, 82.4% have passed.
*The breed of dog with the overall lowest passing score was the skye terrier at 37.5%.
The most "aggressive" dog in America, yet it didn't make the Clifton report.
Test Criticisms
The pit bull advocates present the stats in such a way as to imply that higher scores equal less aggression and lower scores equal more aggression. According to Herkstroeter (from the ATTS), Just because a certain percentage of dogs in a certain breed fail, this does not necessarily indicate aggression. Dogs fail for other reasons, such as strong avoidance. If you look at our statistics just from a perspective of aggression or non-aggression, they can be very misleading. Herkstroeter states that 95% of the dogs that fail, do so because they lack confidence to approach the weirdly dressed stranger or walk on the strange surface. The remaining 5% fail because they take longer than 45 seconds to recover from the gunshot or the umbrella. Still pit bull advocates continue to distort the meaning of the test.
Second, as per ATTS website: "Comparing scores with other dogs is not a good idea" and the test "takes into consideration each breed's inherent tendencies". Cocker spaniels are evaluated against a cocker spaniel standard, not against german shepherds (or at least in theory, they are not supposed to), yet pit bull advocates would have you believe that all dogs are evaluated against one another.
Fifth...dogs are not tested in the presence of other dogs. This is especially critical with dogs that were bred to fight.
Eighth, The American Temperament Testing Society is not an impartial, scientific organization discovering "truth". They openly state their position on their website: "Because of breed-specific dog legislation and negative publicity associated with many breeds of dogs, temperament testing has assumed an important role for today's dog fancier. The ATTS Temperament Test provides breeders a means for evaluating temperament and gives pet owners insight into their dog's behavior. It can have an impact on breeding programs and in educating owners about their dog's behavioral strengths and weaknesses as well as providing a positive influence on dog legislation."
Junk Science
The test and the testers discriminate against timidity and favor courage and aggression, although they do not openly admit to this. The test does not measure any exact personality trait that can be quantified.
In their own words
Here pitbulltalk member Tiger describes her ATTS and her violation of the test rules while still passing.
"Doja did great and passed with flying colors. I was so proud of her.
She was the only dog tested there today that wanted to eat the threatening stranger - so she got high marks for that.
It was funny - most of the other dogs (Belgians included) only looked at him, or ignored him, Even when he was hollering and bashing a stick on the ground. But Doja hit the end of the lead like the little freight train she is and was telling him that he had best stay far away from her Mommy NOW!! Some of the people watching (including some of the testers) actually applauded a bit when she did that."
"another pit bull mix dog that was with us that day, paige, barked and lunged and kicked up the dust till the guy was gone, and she's not protection trained at all. she passed just fine, though. they actually want the dog to identify threatening behavior--your dog gets lower marks if it fails to respond at all, like doc."
apbtmom76
My Penny has passed this and Orion will be taking this test in a few weekends. It is a good test and they are linient about somethings.
Some testers are sometimes lenient on some aspects of the test on some dogs. It really depends on the whims and the motives of the tester.
(many more anecdotes)
Beating Lassie's Score
After reviewing this blog post and its many examples, now you know why pit bulls -- responsible for roughly 50% of all fatal attacks -- score better than Lassie. I did not come to this conclusion quickly. I spent about a year researching the ATTS. In addition to reading every ATTS related thread on every pit bull forum on the internet, I also looked into other breed forums. I found nothing on the other breed forums that even remotely resembled the machinations of the pit bull apologia.
Anyone with a high school education should be able to see the fallibilities of the ATTS, yet a few of the gifted and educated, some with advanced degrees still promote the ATTS as a test with "scientific" value.
As soon as the topic of pit bulls hits the comment sections, the pit bull apologia goes on the defensive and more often than not, the ATTS (American Temperament Testing Society) is the weapon of choice from their arsenal of myths. Typically the pit bull's ATTS scores will be inflated to unbelievable heights. It is not uncommon to read "pit bulls score higher than ANY other breed." A quick check of the available on demand ATTS statistics will bust that myth straight away. But the pit bull does score higher than many popular, safe, family friendly breeds of dogs. How could the dog responsible for roughly 50% of all fatal attacks, score better than Lassie?
ATTS History
The temperament test was developed by Alfons Ertelt in 1977. Mr Ertelt was not an animal behaviorist, he worked in the print industry but his passion was dogs and he was involved in schutzhund. (schutzhund is a dog sport that mirrors the training of police dog work and it is dominated by german shepherds) The ATTS test was initially intended to test working dogs for jobs such as police work. The test favors bold dogs, dogs that need to face danger head on without hesitation and fear. Courage was desired and rewarded, timidity was not. The ATTS favors dogs like pit bulls over dogs like collies. It is important to note, the test does not evaluate dogs for "pet" suitability.
Test Requirements
Since the testers are required to have a great deal of dog sport experience, the testers are often very involved in their breed clubs, therefore the testers are often evaluating their friends and acquaintances and usually the breed of their choice. In other words, they are testing dogs that they have a vested interest in seeing pass the test.
The Test
The final phase of the test measures a dog's self protective/aggressive behavior by exposing the dog first to a weirdly dressed non-threatening stranger, then a threatening stranger and finally an aggressive stranger.
If a dog panics and does not recover or if the dog shows strong avoidance or unprovoked aggression, it fails. Re: aggression, breed specific temperament and the prior experience and training of the dogs are taken into account. The website states that aggressive responses during the final phase of the test is okay for a dog with schutzhund training but an untrained husky displaying aggression toward the stranger may fail. It is obvious that these judges possess far too much discretion in these tests. Some pit bull owners report that their pit bulls passed when it launched aggressively at the stranger while other pit bulls have passed when it barely acknowledged the stranger. Passing or failing is completely dependent upon the whims of the testers.
Current ATTS scores for pit bull type dogs:
american pit bull 86%
american bulldog 84.8%
american staffordshire 83.9%
bull terrier 90.4%
staffordshire bull terrier 89.6%
Current ATTS scores for a few popular breeds of dogs in America:
cocker spaniel 81.9%
collie 79.7%
beagle 80.3%
chihuahua 71.1%
labrador retriever 92.3%
golden retriever 84.6%
german shepherd 84.2%
jack russell 84.1%
mutt 86%
pomeranian 75.8%
pug 90.9%
standard poodle 86%
Of the 30,000+ dogs tested by the ATTS to date, 82.4% have passed.
*The breed of dog with the overall lowest passing score was the skye terrier at 37.5%.
The most "aggressive" dog in America, yet it didn't make the Clifton report.
Test Criticisms
The pit bull advocates present the stats in such a way as to imply that higher scores equal less aggression and lower scores equal more aggression. According to Herkstroeter (from the ATTS), Just because a certain percentage of dogs in a certain breed fail, this does not necessarily indicate aggression. Dogs fail for other reasons, such as strong avoidance. If you look at our statistics just from a perspective of aggression or non-aggression, they can be very misleading. Herkstroeter states that 95% of the dogs that fail, do so because they lack confidence to approach the weirdly dressed stranger or walk on the strange surface. The remaining 5% fail because they take longer than 45 seconds to recover from the gunshot or the umbrella. Still pit bull advocates continue to distort the meaning of the test.
Second, as per ATTS website: "Comparing scores with other dogs is not a good idea" and the test "takes into consideration each breed's inherent tendencies". Cocker spaniels are evaluated against a cocker spaniel standard, not against german shepherds (or at least in theory, they are not supposed to), yet pit bull advocates would have you believe that all dogs are evaluated against one another.
Fifth...dogs are not tested in the presence of other dogs. This is especially critical with dogs that were bred to fight.
Eighth, The American Temperament Testing Society is not an impartial, scientific organization discovering "truth". They openly state their position on their website: "Because of breed-specific dog legislation and negative publicity associated with many breeds of dogs, temperament testing has assumed an important role for today's dog fancier. The ATTS Temperament Test provides breeders a means for evaluating temperament and gives pet owners insight into their dog's behavior. It can have an impact on breeding programs and in educating owners about their dog's behavioral strengths and weaknesses as well as providing a positive influence on dog legislation."
Junk Science
The test and the testers discriminate against timidity and favor courage and aggression, although they do not openly admit to this. The test does not measure any exact personality trait that can be quantified.
In their own words
Here pitbulltalk member Tiger describes her ATTS and her violation of the test rules while still passing.
"Doja did great and passed with flying colors. I was so proud of her.
She was the only dog tested there today that wanted to eat the threatening stranger - so she got high marks for that.
It was funny - most of the other dogs (Belgians included) only looked at him, or ignored him, Even when he was hollering and bashing a stick on the ground. But Doja hit the end of the lead like the little freight train she is and was telling him that he had best stay far away from her Mommy NOW!! Some of the people watching (including some of the testers) actually applauded a bit when she did that."
"another pit bull mix dog that was with us that day, paige, barked and lunged and kicked up the dust till the guy was gone, and she's not protection trained at all. she passed just fine, though. they actually want the dog to identify threatening behavior--your dog gets lower marks if it fails to respond at all, like doc."
apbtmom76
My Penny has passed this and Orion will be taking this test in a few weekends. It is a good test and they are linient about somethings.
Some testers are sometimes lenient on some aspects of the test on some dogs. It really depends on the whims and the motives of the tester.
(many more anecdotes)
Beating Lassie's Score
After reviewing this blog post and its many examples, now you know why pit bulls -- responsible for roughly 50% of all fatal attacks -- score better than Lassie. I did not come to this conclusion quickly. I spent about a year researching the ATTS. In addition to reading every ATTS related thread on every pit bull forum on the internet, I also looked into other breed forums. I found nothing on the other breed forums that even remotely resembled the machinations of the pit bull apologia.
Anyone with a high school education should be able to see the fallibilities of the ATTS, yet a few of the gifted and educated, some with advanced degrees still promote the ATTS as a test with "scientific" value.
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Pitbulls Used to Be Considered the Perfect "Nanny Dogs" for Children -- [View all]
xchrom
Feb 2013
OP
and yet with all your "experience" you need to make your case with personal insults. Bad dog.
TeamPooka
Feb 2013
#108
nothing you said addresses your use of insults in this debate and that's what I commented on
TeamPooka
Feb 2013
#195
You are so right. The problems start when fools purchase problem dogs.
DollarBillHines
Feb 2013
#324
+1. Professional horse trainer/breeder here, and owner of JRTs. Agreed on all fronts.
riderinthestorm
Feb 2013
#230
I do not know your dog and how can I asses it from a picture? What I do know is
Drahthaardogs
Feb 2013
#293
You are lucky to have such intimate knowledge of DUer truebluegreen. I have only met a few
uppityperson
Feb 2013
#295
Anyone who does not understand that in America, we breed a ton of unhealthy,
Drahthaardogs
Feb 2013
#299
I agree AKC and breeding practices for a physical trait is idiotic. Am just saying I am envious of
uppityperson
Feb 2013
#301
They CAN be bred indiscriminately but I know people who breed them and are very careful of
uppityperson
Feb 2013
#303
Good dog, friendly, smart, no health problems=possibility of breeding. Simplistically put.
uppityperson
Feb 2013
#348
A "Pit Bull type dog" is anything with 4 legs & a tail that the media wants you to be afraid of.
baldguy
Feb 2013
#189
Pit bulls are not "pain intolerant" or even "pain tolerant", that is a myth.
uppityperson
Feb 2013
#298
Deaths by dogs > Pit bulls 71 %. Your argument is exactly the same as "guns don't kill people"
KittyWampus
Feb 2013
#70
Who owns guns? The analogy is exact. Pit Bulls were intentionally bred to be killers.
KittyWampus
Feb 2013
#78
The analogy CAN'T be exact. Dogs are living creatures with their own thoughts and instincts...
Moonwalk
Feb 2013
#196
Pit bulls have never been bred to kill people, that I've heard. Where did you hear that?
Honeycombe8
Feb 2013
#134
The problem with that is...lots of injuries are blamed on "pit bulls" that aren't actually pit bulls
Honeycombe8
Feb 2013
#133
Because hysterias like this make witnesses identify every dog as a "Pit Bull"
Recursion
Feb 2013
#174
I'm not suprised that you can't provide supporting documentation for your misguided ideas.
baldguy
Feb 2013
#377
Heh. Now you say there are "problems with this report" - a report you yourself introduced!
Nine
Feb 2013
#389
You "don't dispute" this, you "don't dispute" that & "don't dispute" this other thing -
baldguy
Feb 2013
#390
So, the SPCA, Michigan State University, the ABA, the National Canine Research Council,
baldguy
Feb 2013
#400
I have a boxer/ rottie pet. He's like another child. He will bark like an idiot if
glowing
Feb 2013
#2
less testosterone is a good thing for many male dogs, and if you don't fix a female, you will be
glowing
Feb 2013
#53
I have a male and female, both fixed. He tries to mount her sometimes. She thinks it's a game.
Honeycombe8
Feb 2013
#153
That made me chuckle. That's pretty weird. But whatever floats his boat. nt
Honeycombe8
Feb 2013
#198
Its being responsible. And they are fully functional without these bits and parts.
glowing
Feb 2013
#68
No, you were not wrong. But with a rescue dog, special care needs to be taken.
Honeycombe8
Feb 2013
#137
My brother had to have his nose rebuilt after a black lab acosted him while being pet. They
Ed Suspicious
Feb 2013
#184
Since what you have is a mutt, how would they identify her as a pit mix? Is that what you say she
Honeycombe8
Feb 2013
#140
it would be interesting to read any primary sources from over a century ago
datasuspect
Feb 2013
#12
Actual historical analysis posted below. Pit bulls were NEVER nanny dogs. They were bred to fight.
KittyWampus
Feb 2013
#71
You are incorrect. They were called nanny dogs. The famous RCA dog? A pit bull.
Honeycombe8
Feb 2013
#141
My ex's Springer Spaniel bit a neighbor boy, and he growled & barked at me....
Honeycombe8
Feb 2013
#260
I don't know where you get your info, but pits don't have pain intolerance, and their jaws
Honeycombe8
Feb 2013
#404
Your dog WAS A MUTT. Why is that so hard to grasp. She was categorically NOT A PITT BULL.
KittyWampus
Feb 2013
#72
The problem is that any large Molosser that attacks anyone gets called a "pit bull" by witnesses
Recursion
Feb 2013
#169
Then thats your choice, but placing a black mark on these dogs is not exactly fair.
glowing
Feb 2013
#48
When it leaves them homeless or on the kill list, yeah, I think it effects them.
glowing
Feb 2013
#61
I'm not the one that put the black mark on them. The deaths left in their wake did that. n/t
cynatnite
Feb 2013
#165
little yappy dogs don't kill people. Oh, and a rottie/boxer is a mutt. A MUTT.
KittyWampus
Feb 2013
#79
Ok, what do you think most pitt and rottie mixes are? They get tagged with a "brand".
glowing
Feb 2013
#86
So what are you saying? That all big dogs are dangerous? Or more dangerous than smaller dogs?
uppityperson
Feb 2013
#362
I don't think that's true, objectively speaking. They can be made to be aggressive,
Honeycombe8
Feb 2013
#142
Chihuahuas can be feisty, by nature. But of course, if they bite you, it doesn't kill you. nt
Honeycombe8
Feb 2013
#143
I pull my kids close when they are in striking range of any dog that looks like it could kill them
alcibiades_mystery
Feb 2013
#23
The only thing about the pitbulls I've been around is that you can get a little bruised up playing
brewens
Feb 2013
#31
"Nanny Dog? Not so much." A dude bothers to do actual research on the Nanny Dog claim
alcibiades_mystery
Feb 2013
#50
Thanks so much. I don't demonize any breed but do realize the reality of dog breeding
KittyWampus
Feb 2013
#64
LOL! It's got a lot of actual historical sources. It was highly educational with REAL information.
KittyWampus
Feb 2013
#82
Any dog can snap and I would never take a chance on a pit bull never snapping.
MotherPetrie
Feb 2013
#51
Cars kill and injure more people each year than Pit Bulls. Guns kill more people than Pit Bulls.
KittyWampus
Feb 2013
#81
Wow, the further I read into this thread, the numbers go up and up and up
uppityperson
Feb 2013
#354
So if the dangers of one animal is ignored, the dangers of all animals should be?
MotherPetrie
Feb 2013
#102
No, it means that animals should be properly trained & rerspected - then they won't be dangerous.
baldguy
Feb 2013
#119
I'll tell that to my neighbor, whose leashed dachshund was attacked by another neighor's
MotherPetrie
Feb 2013
#121
I'll tell you about the time my leashed Pit Bull was attacked by a neighbor's Standard Poodle.
baldguy
Feb 2013
#130
Since I was attacked by a St Bernard, I will continue to be careful around all dogs.
uppityperson
Feb 2013
#355
I brought her over to my sister's Super Bowl party, and she had an, um..."incident".
baldguy
Feb 2013
#340
I gotta take issue with this insistence. The "media" didn't do anything but report on
MADem
Feb 2013
#87
Meh, if I think I could devote the time necessary to train/socialize one...
Left2Tackle
Feb 2013
#94
Did you know the family and the dog? Was it a full breed? Did you sue them?
Honeycombe8
Feb 2013
#148
Oh, how horrible. He got out of his yard into yours? How horrible. Your poor dog...
Honeycombe8
Feb 2013
#203
A great deal of training and abuse goes into making a dog - any dog - into a killer.
baldguy
Feb 2013
#129
You said "I don't trust any dog." So why are you posting to a dog thread...
Honeycombe8
Feb 2013
#149
this is going to be one of those nasty threads where the only thing that
liberal_at_heart
Feb 2013
#131
That's true. I love all dogs, but if you own a large dog, it's a big responsibility...
Honeycombe8
Feb 2013
#146
I read this a long time ago. It's not just the media, though, that did this to the pitbull. It's the
Honeycombe8
Feb 2013
#128
I agree with you there. People tend to call any nondescript dog that bites a "pit." nt
Honeycombe8
Feb 2013
#197
I agree they are more dangerous than many other dogs, but the owners aren't
Honeycombe8
Feb 2013
#253
I'm hijacking this thread. Anyone makes another post and it's curtains for fido!
randome
Feb 2013
#181
I've seen cops and reporters identify a ton of different Molossers as "pit bulls"
Recursion
Feb 2013
#290
" It's up to responsible owners to train, care for and socialize our bullies properly"
Catherina
Feb 2013
#398
That's a wonderful story. But it doesn't negate the negatives of the breed.
Honeycombe8
Feb 2013
#285
Yeah, but did the AKC recommend alligators as the best dog for families for decades?
MadHound
Feb 2013
#317
the AKC is an abomination only interested in money. They don't give a crap about dogs or humans.
KittyWampus
Feb 2013
#393
And of course all this uninformed hysteria about Pit Bulls covers up one salient fact
baldguy
Feb 2013
#360